(starting separate thread so as not to hijack someone else's)<p>I am still here because I don't know what to do. NOTHING is helping.<p>He insists to this day that it's only cheating if it's sexual. Since I can't prove that, he did NOT cheat.<p>I have seen plenty with my own eyes. I've seen the flirting. I know they've gone off alone together in cars. I've seen their (puke) e-mail. And my gut screams every day that there is more. <p>But he defends and excuses and justifies every last bit of it, right down to the bitter end. According to him, he had NO IDEA any of this was even happening.<p>He wants me to believe he's so stupid that he doesn't know what flirting is. He doesn't know what dating is. He doesn't know what an inappropriate conversation is. Oh, and all his female friends are equally stupid. They didn't know any of this was going on, either! <p>Oh, but there was one thing that he and all of them sure as hell DID know: THEY SURE KNEW BETTER THAN TO LET ME KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. THEY SURE KNEW THEY HAD TO LIE TO MY FACE ABOUT ALL OF IT, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID.<p>So now, I am treated all day long like I am STUPID. Or crazy. Or hallucinating. Or all of the above.<p>I did "Plan A" for years. Put him first in *everything.* Have always tried to be the best person I could be. And it worked! He loved it. He loved me. But to this day he sees no reason why he couldn't spend a little quality time alone with his female co-workers too, and get more involved in their personal lives than he was in mine -- something I didn't realize at the time.<p>Plan B? I don't think he would even notice. As long as I stay out of his personal life and ask him no questions about it, everything is great. But if I want answers and if I want to be treated like I'M NOT STUPID -- forget it.<p>My head is exploding right now from intense anger and from complete, utter, total frustration. If any of you have a suggestion, I'm listening.<p>Psycho_B***h

I've been thinking about your post... which I read in BR's post... and I thought... It could've been me pre d-day.<p>My H saw nothing wrong w/ his 'girl' friends. They were 'just' friends. They were just 'flirting'. It was 'harmless'. Until he met the wrong one... the one who would take it further. HER.<p>I think back on this year to what 'made' the difference. ME. He saw me irrefutably changing and moving on... and I let him know it would be with or without him... but I think when I started seeing a therapist and didn't 'tell' him... he just found out when he drove my car and saw the appointment cards... that got his attention... he knew I was serious because I quit talking about it.<p>I think about reading the book "The Passionate Marriage." It is about discovering how to hold onto yourself and just be able to 'share' life and love... about figuring out your 'crucible.'<p>It is about me become WHOLE and NOT NEEDING him anymore... just desiring and wanting him in my life.<p>Maybe quit working so hard on HIM and focus on YOU. <p>Cali

I know the frustration you are feeling. I feel it myself. As long as I don't say anything about the way he flirts with every female within a hundred miles (including my friends) or goes out with them at night or talks to them on the phone each day even more then he talks to me he is fine.<p>You say plan B won't help. I have noticed though in me situation the less time I give him the less I let him know that it doesn't bother me. The more independent I get without him. The less secure he feels and the close he tries to get to me. I still try and fill his EN and be there for him. But I stopped being what I felt like, a doormat. When he would say something sexual about a friend of mine. I would say something like "You think that's funny don't you?" I let him know that I got what he was implying but that it was out of line. That I would not get angry about it, but I saw it as kind of sad. His remarks like those get fewer and fewer.<p>I don't know if it helps but it might. It also might be considered an LB. But as for me my love bank is almost dry. Yours might not be.<p>Music

Psycho,<p>Something to remind yourself of constantly: His truths do not have to be your truths.<p>Every person here has been called crazy and imagining things pre-d-day when things were only suspected.<p>You aren't crazy, and you have every right to feel that his actions are unacceptable in your life.<p>What you really really have to do is stop putting him first (putting your spouses needs first is very anti POJA) and start taking care of you. Put him on the back burner. You can't change him - and changing him won't fix your marriage.<p>Change you. When you change, he'll have to. <p>I know this seems to be a trite answer but its not. It will just take some time for you come to see exactly what I am saying. It's ok, its a process.

psycho_b,<p>If you get frustrated get advice from Steve or Jennifer. SH many times has help me out to see through some situation.<p>This is just my opinions ... no one could plan A forever w/o result. Why ? b/c you will running out of actions to do ! not to mention you will get frustrated !. There is a different for BS to be a doormat in plan A and a doormat in sitting on the fence's WS !. In plan A, we become doormat only to buy time to show our changes ... those are ammneds for our past mistake that we contribute to create the environment for A. For sitting the fence WS, you will have to wait until your run out of LB$ or to push WS to choose ... otherwise LB will get you.<p>Review your plan A, make sure H notice the changes and acknowledge it. Leave no stone un-turn !. Snoop at the same time, you need it for your own sake. At the same time, you have to set boundry ... H might ignore it, let it be but you have to express your feeling. Let H do what he like for now under your objections.<p>Now, still not working ? ... definitely you need to take control. Have you try 180 degrees ?, test it and see if it works then do it full blast, shock your H. Or you have to go to plan B.<p>Try Jennifer or Steve.<p>-RH-

Hi PB,<p>I first want to say I'm sorry for all the frustrating and hurtful years with this man. I wish I could take all your pain away. <p>But what I think you should do is move on WITHOUT HIM, just FORGET HIM and all his manipulative craziness with his bimbos. I mean it, PB ... completely detach from him emotionally, let him go. He isn't respectful of you or your marriage and you can't MAKE him do anything or feel anything. <p>I fear if you don't let him go soon, it will destroy you ... please don't let that happen. <p>I'll say prayers for you tonite. Please find some peace.<p>Lv,
Jo

dear pb-first off---hhuuggss---you have gotten some good advice. you however have the final decision on what you will tolerate and not. i like the idea of the 180.

He says that "he doesn't do this stuff" anymore, but I have no way of knowing that for sure. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. He may be telling me the whole truth. Or he may not be. <p>That's the way it's been since at least 1991.<p>We went to one counseling session, a year ago. Really didn't make any difference. But I don't see what else is left. You are right, he's never going to believe it from me -- I am just loony and unreasonable. He's going to have to hear it from someone else.<p>Psycho_B***h

Truckloads of empathy to you!<p>Not knowing for sure is the hardest part. <p>MY IC told me right off the bat,"you are never going to convince him.......". I have fought that concept for over a year. What a waste of energy! The only thing that has saved me is to get validation here that I was not and am not overeacting.<p>"he doesn't do this stuff anymore". Is he able to describe to you how he interacts with people of opposite sex NOW vs when he was doing "this stuff". Can he tell you what changes he has made to keep from doing behaviors that hurt and scare you? I can pretty much guess the answer.<p>BR is right, put him on the back burner, I'm starting to realize this myself. <p>Replaced<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Replaced ]</p>

PB,<p>There is one RELEVANT factor in your situation--YOU know how his behavioral choices make YOU feel, and that's all you need to know to make decisions about YOUR life. Whether he gets it or not becomes secondary when your own survival is at stake, and it is obviously getting to that point if not having already been there for a long time. You are not responsible for getting him to see reality. YOU see it, so YOU have to deal with it.<p>It is when you finally let go of that need for him to admit what he's done to you that you can move forward and not be stuck. He has no empathy, he has no remorse. You have thoroughly determined that. Now what are you going to do? I'm fortunate that my H confessed and I no longer had to have the agony of not knowing exactly what was going on.<p>But I know this for sure, my only signal in the future is how I feel and how he is treating me. If he is treating me like *I* am stupid or if he is expecting me to believe HE is stupid and clueless, then he is DISRESPECTING me, and that is all I need to know to follow my plan for what I will do when he treats me disrespectfully. You know he is disrespecting you. You obviously hate it. You need to come up with a plan for eliminating the disrespectful treatment in your life.<p>A book I'm reading right now may be helpful for you: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay. She leads you through your feelings and what you know about your R the way a doctor diagnoses illness. She asks you the questions that will help you deal with what she calls relationship ambivalence and help you to zero in on what will make you the most happy--staying or leaving.<p>And Passionate Marriage is an absolute must just for getting the most out of LIFE, whether you are married or not. It is not so much about passion and/or marriage as it is about connecting with yourself so that you can have better connections with others. I found it so helpful that I'm getting his other book, Constructing the Sexual Crucible, because I was told it is even better than PM. So, try either one. I relaxed so much after reading it and have felt better ever since.<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>