i am an OW and i should tell ya that *no contact* makes the obsession grow stronger. my MM and i tried it for awhile and could never do it for very long. it's been over for months, but we still talk. just a couple of weeks ago, we had a talk that gave me the ability to let him go completely and move on. i am no longer a threat to his wife.<p>it's easy to say i should stop talking to him and put his wife's feelings and his marriage first, but that's hard to do when i was left so abruptly and had so many negative feelings--hurt, betrayal (yes, betrayal!), depression, sadness--and unresolved questions about our relationship and his feelings for me. it was not until i discovered that i needed an honest talk with him about how he feels for his wife that i could let go. he gave it to me....now i'm able to move on.<p>did you ever think that maybe *no contact* could leave some questions unanswered for the OW and leave her (and the WS) with loose ends that won't allow either one of them to move on completely until they're tied up??<p>just something to ponder...<p>peace, love & groovy sex to all [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Go tell it to Springer. He has people like you on his show all the time.

Since the ends shouldn't have been loose in the first place, I don't think there needs to be the type of closure you're talking about. I personally don't care what my H wants to do. It is what I want to do with MY life that is important. I choose not to participate in a harem. If he wants to have one, he is free to do that with people like you who do not mind being part of a harem.<p>I have not had an illegitmate R with a MM, but I have had R's, and I know how breakups go, and getting over the loss, and all that. I've always been the breaker, and it has ALWAYS been better to quit cold turkey. Since I'm the one breaking it off, my ends are all tied up, I have no unresolved issues, all my questions are answered--that's why I'm breaking up!<p>And because I'm ready to move on, I couldn't care less about any unanswered questions the person I dumped may or may not have, mostly because I likely already answered them many, many times DURING the R, which is probably among the reasons I'm breaking up--the cluelessness of the person I'm dumping and his failing to "get it" during the R. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

KG, <p>Have you ever been addicted to anything other than this OM? Maybe you should take a walk in the recovery centers and hear the horror stories of recovery. <p>Now, regards your 'no contact' question, it seems that your 'no contact letter or phone call' was not clear enough. <p>The last contact communication should have answered all questions and if it did not then shame on the one 'trying' to leave an open door. <p>Ooooh...this one I speak from experience. Went through so many 'no contact' speeches (even visited one of their meetings - to witness it from a distance - WS request). That one lasted 20 minutes!!!! <p>The real answer to your question is not a let them down gently, take it in stages no contact but exactly what it means "no contact". <p>See in this case the A is a major addiction. Some addictions (like caffiene) can be done in stages, whereas other addictions need to be cold turkey (like the A). WhY? Because the after effects are deadly. <p>I have taken out my last sentence to give a 'more appropriate' illustration.<p>Kinda no contact is like when the Doctor and patient agree that 'amputation' is required. Do you think it is good if the doctor only 1/2 removes the decaying limb? Is the operation a success if only 1/2 the stitches are put in? Ok gorry comparison but if you ask around here just as gory things have been done to our marriages. <p>Now you think 1/2 a no contact is ok?<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Woah - you think that us BSs over here should consider or agree to something less than no-contact so that the OP can get closure?!?!?!!<p>I don't think so. My H's OW never wanted anything but harm to me and mine - why on EARTH would I care about her emotional well being?<p>She made her choice to get involved with a married man, thats her problem. I certainly don't owe her "closure" with my H, at the expense of my marriage.

KG,
As a human being, I can understand your position and I sympathize. Just like everyone here sympathizes with a newbie BS who goes bananas and does all the wrong things.<p>As a BS, and knowing what I know now about the dynamics of As, the answer is a definite, unqualified no way.<p>As time goes on, if you choose to learn from your mistake and hope to create a healthy relationship with someone in the future, you will see that this is the right way to do it.<p>Stick around; this is a good place to learn about these things.

No, I don't quite see that viewpoint I guess. To me, it sounds selfish. But then again, affairs are pure selfishness.

But who says you are entitled to "closure?" You are in an illegitimate relationship [by your own choosing] so you don't have a legitimate claim to closure. Abrupt, unfinished endings [read: dumpings] are part and parcel of an illicit affair - it just goes with the territory.

Harley thinks no contact is the best idea. Read on:<p>Never see or communicate with a former lover <p>Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage. <p>The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay. <p>Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity? <p>In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. <p>Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation. <p>We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation. <p>How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone. <p>My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

By the time the WS and BS are ready to recover and build a NEW marriage, the Illicit Affair has already died it's natural death .... so contact for the WS isn't necessary and deemed a hinderence and disrespectful to the marriage.<p>But if the OP (OW) has any unresolved issues, she/he needs to sort them out on their own. I suggest counseling to find out why she/he choses married people as opposed to available single people. <p>Jo

NO

Give me one good reason why the BS should give a hang if the OP gets closure or is happy or anything else? This is not about coddling the OP. Did you consider the feelings of the BS? Don’t think so.<p>Here’s the deal. If my H wants to be married to me, then he had to break off all contact, cold turkey. Or he could walk. If he chose otherwise that was ok too. <p>Closure my dear, is nothing more then psycho-babble meaning “I want it to go on and on. I want to talk about it as long as he will come around to talk about it.” It amazes me how some WS and some OP talk about these affair relationships as though they are attached at the hip. I too have ended relationships, even had a couple of them ended on me. But never, ever have I not been able to ‘stay away’, never have I needed the kind of cobble’dygook ‘closure’. I suppose that it’s essential for an OP to believe that their relationship with the WS is more the real life in order to put themselves in the situation. If the OP needs closure they should seek professional help instead of leaning on someone else’s husband.<p>Generally when the affair is discovered, the WS ends the affair. Many of them do this on of their own accord because they realize that their spouse and their marriage means more to them then the OP. As the OP isn’t that closure enough?.. to know that the WS has returned to their marriage?
I like Conqueror’s comment about a harem because that is exactly what is going on when the WS is having an affair. Shoot my current H had 10 affairs going at one time and he dated/engaged/and married me. I wonder if yours was a harem of 2 or if your MM had others just like you. Not unusual you know. Like Conqueror I refuse to part of a harem.<p> When you choose to have the affair, you chose the position of the ‘second wife’. In any multi-relationship situation the ‘second wife’ gives up many rights… in the good old USA, since polygamy is not legal, the ‘second wife’ gives up all legal right, is legally liable for damages caused, and has no societal rights to anything.<p>You chose this for yourself. My H’s OW’en choose it for them

Ten years after my affair with a single man:<p>I am so so so glad that he suddenly ditched my butt and never spoke to me again. He did me a wonderful favor.<p>He was an infantry soldier, and one day, he showed up on my doorstep and told me that he was leaving for another duty station. 'So, 'I thought, 'There are telephones in this modern world.' He told me that we were through, no writing, no calling, that was it.<p>I freaked. I threw a bunch of bananas at him and shrieked "I thought you loved me!!!!"<p>He said "I do love you, but it's not right." He turned, got back into his truck, and drove away.<p>It took a year to get over him. I wrote letters. I investigated for his whereabouts through mutual friends--he refused to be "found." I stopped eating. I acted lame at work. I cried. I wrote sad country songs about him (good ones, too, being miserable really did wonders for my song-writing ability.)<p>I say again, he did me a wonderful favor by doing what he did, you know that?<p>I did actually see him again, about a year and a half later (believe it or not, the military community can be small.)<p>I took one look at him and could not believe my eyes--what did I ever see in him?! He was so not right for me, it was unbelievable! He was kind of a homely punk kid with such a boring personality that we had absolutely nothing to talk about. And I had thrown my whole life, my husband, my children--and my honor--away for him.<p>He pretty much didn't think much of me, either, because all I did was flaunt my then-hot figure like some Jerry Springer show guest and gush about my new beau, my husband to be. He thought I was a total ditz, and he told me so.<p>Absence to love is like wind is to fire--it extinguishes the weak and fuels the mighty.

MB suggests a specific way to handle breaking it off which is not merely an attempt. It is a heartfelt joint decision made between the married couple where the betrayed spouse is 100% involved. It is not an ultimatum either. It's a willing gesture of the WS to make it up to the BS for all the pain WS caused the BS.<p>Maybe the attempt is weakened when the WS tries to break off contact without the loving support of their spouse? Like, you know, in Hollywood movies... But, not in true MB situations where the WS turns over a new leaf...<p>It's not the affair that destroys the marriage, it's the dishonesty.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Twyla:
<strong>NO</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
LOLOL, that's what I love about Twyla: short, sweet and to the point!

No sympathy here. Couldnt give a damm if OW has "unfinished business' - shouldnt have got into the kitchen if she couldnt stand the heat! Yes, it is me, Rosebrook. You might even remember me as kind, caring and compassionate. I can tell you this - having spent a bit of time lurking on www.gloryb.com I dont have any compassion at all for OW anymore. And, it is worth having a look over there (it is an OW site) for what they have to say about no contact. They use it when it suits them to their maximum advantage - I call it the "me,me,me" site.<p>How's that for a vent!!!

kittygirrrl,<p>Question here? How much time did you and he give his wife to come to terms with the affair before you started it? Did you give her time to get 'closure' and the end the fidelity in their marriage? What you say NONE? Mybe WS's and OP should give a thought to that... maybe they should start including the BS in their decision to have an affair. Oh, you say that you were not thinking of her? I see.<p>It's funny. You see the MM's continued contact as proof that he cared for you. I see it as his only proving that he could not be honest to either his wife or you. It does not impress me.. it sickens me.

sorry it's taken me awhile to reply, but i'll try to answer some of the questions and maybe clarify the situation a little.<p>first of all, this experience has been the most heart-breaking and devastating relationship of my life, and i'd never do it again. i completely agree that it never should have happened, but it did. we started out as friends. i had no intentions of having a sexual relationship with him. but, we became very close and, i didn't realize what i was getting myself into.<p>a few posts asked if i thought of his wife. i did. i talked to him about being honest with her about his unhappiness, and trying to make things work out. well, he did talk to his wife. they talked a lot. they decided to separate. then, i became the focus of all his attentions.<p>as far as i knew, his marriage was over, and he was available for another relationship. but, there were things that i was not told about the nature of the separation. during the four or five months that our relationship lasted, i completely fell in love with him. he made all the usual proclamations that most married men make to their lovers (soulmates, true love, etc.).<p>once he confessed that he hadn't truly ended his marriage and was having trouble moving on, he started the *waffling*. that period only lasted a few weeks, but they were the longest and most agonizing weeks of my life. i couldn't stand anymore torture at that point, and told him i'd rather him go back to his wife.<p>so, he confessed everything to her, and he was surprised to find her willing to forgive him and make their marriage work. (he's lucky to have her over me, because i don't think i could be so forgiving.) he told her that he loved me, and couldn't end our friendship--she protested, but agreed.<p>a couple of weeks after they got back together, i told him i didn't think we should talk to each other anymore--i just wanted to get over it. he was upset when i told him, but he agreed not to contact me unless i initiated contact. i lasted only a few days, and ended up calling him. we agreed to be friends, but he kept dropping little bits of hope, i suspect, to keep me around *just in case*.<p>the *just friends* thing lasted a few months, until i realized that he was keeping me as a safety net. he always told me that he'd never love or be happy with her the way he did/was with me. he said he was afraid he'd made a big mistake by going back. but, those words didn't match what was going on, so i asked him for complete honesty, no matter how much he thought it would hurt me.<p>so, he finally told me all about his feelings for his wife, his intentions to make his marriage work, and his fears that telling me those things would be too painful for me to handle. i think that conversation was beneficial for all parties involved. i am no longer available to him, he realizes that he was only trying to escape responsibility, and his wife no longer has to worry about him and me resuming a relationship.<p>the only reason i posted that *no contact* may not always be best, is because i think our ability to get to this point was best in our situation. even though we weren't supposed to have an affair, we grew emotionally attached to each other and needed to get to the point where we could end it completely without trying to go back for more. i understand that some affairs do not involve emotional attachments, and are easier to walk away from without looking back. but, some aren't. it could be better, in the long run, for the WS to be allowed to end the second relationship before going back to the first one, just like the first one should have been ended before going on to a new one.<p>of course, this is just my experience. i don't imagine it would apply to many others, but it could. it's just a different perspective that could be beneficial if the WS or OW have emotional ties that can't be broken just by saying or writing the *no contact* words he's supposed to say or write.<p>i could be completely wrong, but i think that we are in a better place now that will allow us all to move on completely and focus our efforts where they should be.<p>no offense intended. i know i'm the adversary around here, but i'm learning to work through this just like everyone else. i've learned a lot about myself through this experience, and, hopefully, have become more of the person i should be through these lessons. i'm sorry for everyone's pain...i never meant to cause any of it.<p>peace, love & groovy sex to y'all [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Kittygirrrl,<p>Sounds like you learn a tough lesson. I learned the same one a long time ago. Do not date a married person, no matter the state of he marriage. Many married couples separate, file for divorce, etc only to recover their marriage and stay together for years longer. A marriage is not over until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. <p>We live in a society that puts little true value on marriage, therefore people us almost any excuse to defile and end them. But our hearts are not so easily played with. The connection in marriage is so much more then any other man/woman relationship. People do not realize this until they are in a marriage and try to end it. It is at that point that we often realize how much our spouse means to us, no matter how imperfect a marital relationship might be. And they are all imperfect.<p>
The standard rule I’ve heard is that a person should not date until at least a year after their divorce. It takes a person at least a year to resolve the issues from the marriage and heal. Any relationship that might start during that year period is a transition relationship and it will usually end with all being hurt.

Wanted to comment further on two things you said.
RE: he's lucky to have her over me, because i don't think i could be so forgiving.<p>It think that you will find that then the time comes and your spouse cheats on you, you will be as forgiving as she and as the people here on MB who want to much to save their marriages. There is at least as 45% chance that any future husband will cheat on you as about 45%of all men and women cheat at least once during their marriage. <p>And this does not take in account karma.. a very strong influence in life. <p>The reason I believe you will forgive is that despite you protestations of a woman needing to have dignity and not put up with infidelity your behavior in this affair shows that you do not live by that. You choose to enter into a relationship in which you were the secondary partner. His protestations that he was not happy and did not love his wife were only a smoke screen that helped you accept that secondary relationship position. When he went back to her, you still had a hard time breaking it off. You continued to listen to his words and not his actions.<p>You have already done with the MM what you think you cannot do. Why is it that you could, and still can, think of him in a good light when he did what he did to both you and his wife? I think that it is because the greatest harm was to his wife, not to you. And you are ok with that. As long as it was not you, it’s ok for him to hurt her. But what you don’t seem to see is that this man used you to work through the problems in his marriage. You do not see this and still forgive him. Interesting.<p>RE: he told her that he loved me, and couldn't end our friendship--she protested, but agreed.
I find it odd that you think it was good that his wife understood his need to have some sort of relationship with you. Yet in the case of lorisue, where her husband actually had the guts to say honestly what he wanted, instead of couch it in twisted words, you were appalled that she was still putting up with her husband’s antics.
If you look at the ACTIONS of lorisue’s husband and the MM in your case, their actions are the same. The difference is in the words. Always, always pay more attention to a person’s actions then the smoke screen of their words.<p>From all you have written I believe that no-contact would have been better in your case because it would have prevented him from stringing you along, plying you with untruths to keep you in the wings. You could have suffered through a shorter withdrawal period and gotten on with your life sooner.<p>And he could have concentrated on his marriage. Having you in the wings kept him from focusing solely on his marital recovery. <p>You may want to learn to set better boundaries in your life. It’s a hard thing to learn, but will enable you to protect yourself from so much hurt.<p>And his continued contact with you kept his wife's wound open or months. Don't think for a moment that she did not suffer terribly for that continued contact.<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>