Bluechains and Cali:
Thanks for supportive replies. WH called after I posted and asked how I was, said we never seemed to need to talk at the same time, and said he wanted to talk to the kids. He just dropped them off 2 hrs. b/4. I didn't say anything.
You are both so right. I need to stop driving myself crazy. But it is so darn hard. I want a sign, SOMETHING, to say, "He's still in it. Don't give up." I wanted him to give up OW and just try to work on us for three months-I just need some process. It all ended so quickly.
I don't know if I am in it for the long haul. There is something depressing about remaining open..I feel like I'm purposely exposing myself to hurt. I would say yes, I'll work through anything and everything if he would stop seeing OW and go to counseling.
I miss him so much.
-CS

CS-<p>Thats all part of the rollercoaster, one minute your feeling great because of something WS did or said, then the next you feel like you-know-what because of what WS did or said. Take it all in stride. What you need to really focus on is not individual words or actions, but more long-term stuff. I think Cali's suggestion of keeping a journal would help with that.<p>No, dont over analyze everything, it will drive you insane. Instead, analyze yourself and see what changes you can make to be the best CS there is!<p>One thing I see that might mean something is when WS said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>we never seemed to need to talk at the same time <hr></blockquote>
Has this been a problem in the past? I know it has been for me and W, especially with small kids. Anyway you can get a babysitter for even a few hours and go out with H on a date? Nothing serious, but something where you could spend time together without distractions (ie. HNHN's).<p>And the divorce talk, not a good thing, but I know exactly where you are coming from. No, he is not looking for a quicky divorce or else he would have done something by now. Besides, you said it takes a year after the separation papers are filed in order to go to a D. So, you have plenty of time to Plan A.<p>Dont give up CS, stand strong. I know its hard, but God is looking out for you, He has a plan, we just have to learn some patience and be persistant. You miss your H, thats because you love him so much, but this H is not the same H you married, remember that. Dont chase after WH, dont be needy or clingly. Act as if you are moving on, because in a way, you are.<p>You dont want this crap, you dont need it and you dont deserve it, so you need to let it go. Its hard, very hard, but you will find peace, you will turn the corner soon.<p>Tomorrow starts a new week, wadaya gonna do about it? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks LRS-
I look forward to your posts. I think WH and I going out for a coffee or something would be really good but I don't think I should suggest that yet. He doesn't seem interested in social outings with me-maybe in a couple weeks. I think he would consider that as being needy.
Yes, we weren't connecting b/4 the A. I put the kids first, he worked alot, etc. He asked me to do things and I always found a reason not to. Looking back on it, it was because I wasn't feeling good about myself. I'd gained weight (alot))(have lost 30 lbs since he left), gave up my career ( I am trying to restart it), etc. He didn't encourage me in nuturing ways either. He felt critized (sp) by me, etc.
It's hard not to rehash every conversation etc, because I want so badly to see him coming out of the fog and moving toward me.
I am going to try to think big picture and have a good, healthy week. WH is coming over tomorrow night to talk about legal paperwork and then we're going to kid's games. I am going to keep it light and smile. I am.
I want to reach out to him so badly, hug him, tell him I love him. He told me on one of the messages Sat. night that he loved me (it's the inlove part he doesn't feel as he told me a different time). I know I should attribute the in love thing to Fog but he told me that b/4 the A too. Weight issue.
Cali's suggestion about a journal is a good idea. I read that too in one of the million books I've read in the past 2 months. It makes sense.
Take care and hope you had a good w-end.
-CS

Hello. I did mention to WH about going out for a drink sometime. He said that sounds good, but we'll see if it actually happens. He called me yesterday to see how things were going (I didn't call back) and said he had fun at the game last night (we all went). We talked about our legal paperwork and he agreed to everything I proposed. He said he wasn't going to not do his financial obligation to me or the kids. Hmmnn. Moral would be nice. I said it's interesting that I am the one that wants the D the least and I have to do the paperwork. He said, yes, you are pushing it through, really pushing it through. I don't know what he expects. I can't leave myself exposed to being broke, etc.
He is just not coming out of the fog.
-CS

CS-
Let WS follow through on the offer to meet him sometime, don't push it. But, don't be disappointed if he doesn't do anything about it in the near future, remember, expect nothing and you wont be disappointed. Your handling the separation paperwork great, treat this like a business transaction. Be short and to the point about it, it doesn't have to be wrought with emotions, its simply a method for the both of you to protect your [censored](et)s.<p>Make sure that WH knows you are still 100% committed to him and the M, but let your actions make it clear that you are moving on with or without him. He needs to be reassured that it isnt over yet, but it also needs to be made clear to him what you expect for any kind of recovery to take place. Do you think giving him a copy of HNHN's or SAA might help? Letting these books do the talking might really be a benefit for the both of you.<p>Any idea concerning the relationship between WH and OW? Do you think they are still together. I get the feeling that WH is really confused right now, really trying to figure out what to do. Make sure that you continue in your Plan A efforts. The better you become and appear to WH, the worse OW will look to him.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

LRS-
I'm inbetween kid pick-ups. I don't think WH is ready to do any reading at this point. At the beginning, I gave him print-outs from MB web. I haven't told him that I am commited to the marriage etc. for awhile. I think he knows it and that is part of the problem. I don't know what is going on between WH and OW. I do believe they are still seeing each other. WH doesn't have the kids the next 2 weekends so I'm sure...
How are things with you?
Take care,
CS

Hello. Well, WS is back in his distant stage. No phone calls today, pleasant when exchanging kids, and that's about it. It's so disappointing after this weekend. I thought maybe he was getting ready to come back or at least thinking about it.
I know I shouldn't look at every encounter but focus on big picture. Very hard to do. I want there to be a change so much.
I did ask WH if he'd be interested in going to counseling and he said, "yeah, I'd go." And that's all I said about it. I didn't act anything. Just dropped it and said good-bye. Should I pursue going? We went to one session (I think a month ago) and he wouldn't admit A and said he didn't think he wanted to work on marriage. I said I wasn't willing to work on anything until he admitted A. So the counselor said, "Come Back if you want to work on the M. There's not much I can do right now." The counselor also indiciated in private to me that he thought WH was done with the marriage and just coming so it appeared he was trying. I thought that too.
My gut feeling is that WH is not ready for it.
I have no idea what is going on with him and OW.
Do you WH's pleasantness lately is because he is comfortable with his decision to D?
Thanks for thoughts.
-CS

RE: marriage counselors... most marriage counselors don't know how to deal w/ infidelity... check out Weiner-Davis's and the Harley's recommendations on finding a marriage therapist... you might even be able to find one that is recommended in your area...<p>Also I was reading Divorce Remedy today and was wondering if you had checked it out? www.divorcebusting.com has the first chapter available for downloading... check it out [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] !<p>Cali

Cali-
I have read The Divorce Remedy. It's good.
DO you think it's worth the time to go to counseling when WH isn't at the place to work on things?
I talked to WH for a minute on the phone tonight. I heard a girl yell in the background (game on). I don't think the A will ever end. Your WH came back in a month. We're past 2 months and no sign of anything.
-CS

You can't know the results of counseling... and I believe even individual counseling would be beneficial for you... it, along w/ church and Bible study, is doing wonders for me...<p>My H only 'moved out' for a month... but the A had been going on from at least January to d-day in April... contact all through the summer... contact through the fall... contact through the end of January... <p>H was also 'talking' to a young lady 18 or 19 years old...<p>I believe that if you start to make steps AWAY from him in the direction of positive change... he will notice...<p>and the worst thing that happens is you are stronger without him.

CS-<p>Any counselor who can make those kinds of statements after only a few sessions isn't worth the paper their diploma is written on. I wouldn't go back to someone like that for anything. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT take what that dime store prophet said to heart, they are completely out of line. But do look into what the Dr. Harley and Michelle Davis recommends about finding a good counselor. Just because WH doesn't want to go (yet) doesn't mean that the 2 of you wouldn't benefit from you going to counseling by yourself. Keep an open mind about this. There are always 2 people in a marriage and what benefits one will always benefit the other.<p>Don't get to down on yourself about WH's behavior. The A will end, it was doomed to failure from the beginning. Most experts say to give the A about 6 mos after DDay for it to die. It has to die a natural death as well, you cant force it at all, any interference on your part will only hinder the death or prolong the A. I think you are doing all the right things, your not pushing the A or R issues, your not LB-ing, your 100% committed to WH, the M and your family and you are determined to see this thing through. <p>I know you looking for something to happen soon, your hoping that WH wakes up tomorrow and realizes all that he has done and then comes running back. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that in most cases, but that doesn't mean your situation is hopeless, its far from that. One thing I have learned is that I have a lot more patience and perseverance that I thought I did and I suspect that you are realizing that as well. Let God give you the strength and courage you need to get through this.<p>Hang in there CS, there are a lot of wonderful people here who know exactly what you are going through and are thinking of you.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

LHS-
Thanks. I am going to IC to focus on myself although I always end up talking about WH. WH and I went to just one session with a different MC. Talked to Wh this morning. He lied about last night. OW was at his house and he said she wasn't etc. I didn't confront him about it but I am so sick of the lies. Why lie?
He has said he doesn't want to reconcile, he is seeing her, we're separated...why the he## continue to lie when there is no reason to? Because I'll start a fight, he feels guilty admitting it? Probably both but I am sick of it. There are lies for no reason. There is not one single reason for him to lie except to make matters worse.
I'm seriously thinking about getting off this rollercoaster. When I think about who I am dealing with and what I am fighting for, I have to wonder why. I would probably find someone else who I share more interests with, may be financially better off with, could trust without all this BS, wouldn't have to swallow my pride for, and wouldn't have to wonder as I age if that's a problem. I asked WH what happens when people get older, wrinkled, etc. Is he going to be able to stay with that person/stay attracted to? His answer was I don't know, I hope so. I think that answer is so shallow. His answer about what the OW is to him is I don't know. It used to be she is a friend.
I think maybe I picked the wrong person to fight for. The kids are logically the only reason to fight anymore.
Thanks for listening.
-CS

CS,<p>In your last post, you asked why does he feel he has to lie and why does he lie to you all the time if he doesn't want to work on the marriage? <p>If he told you, like you want...."Yes, I'm still with the OW"....."Yes, she is here with me right now"......What would you do? What would you say to him? <p>You are not only sounding sad and a little desperate, but growing more angry as well. It is almost as if you are looking for anything to cling to. Why do you keep wondering if the A is still going on? Is it or isn't it? I think you know the answer. You are not going crazy. You don't need to hear what you already know. <p>CS, you are making me so sad. I recall when one point my H and I were separated. My H stayed at the home and I left with our D and stayed with my parents. He had the nerve to move this OW into our home. She was sleeping in our bed, driving our car, had the keys to our home, using our telephone, cooking in my kitchen, and scr****g my H. All I could say when I found out was, "THAT B******D IS TRYING TO REPLACE ME!!"<p>I would call and he'd be so evasive about what he was doing or he was just never there. I only found out that she was staying in my house with him when I went back because we were moving out of the place and I found pictures they had taken together. He confessed everything.<p>I had to stop asking questions I already knew the answer to cause it just fueled my rage and resentment towards him and the OW. Their A lasted about 1 1/2yrs and died a slow death on its own. <p>I had to just let it go. It seemed the more I pushed and demanded, the more he ran to her. It was like one day I woke up and bam! I just completely put it into God's hands. <p>I accepted that I could not control my H. I could not change him.<p>I could only change my thoughts and reactions. I could only change and control myself.<p>I knew if I continued on the way I was going, I would go crazy. My D needed me. What good was I to anyone if I went crazy. How could I have given someone so much power over me? <p>I think I got tired of feeling sorry for myself, for wondering what was wrong with me that he didn't want me anymore, for wondering if these OW (32, over 10 year span) were better than me. I got tired of wondering what I did wrong.<p>I got real with myself and figured out where I went wrong. I then made a plan to change those things about myself. I knew that I was part to blame for our M going wrong, but he made the choice to cheat. <p>It took alot of trial and error. I even became a WS at one point in our M. I chose the wrong path. Suffering the consequences now. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It took a while, but later I finally found that place where I needed to be. I was in a place where I knew, no matter what my WS did that might hurt me, that I would be okay. From then on, my focus was all on me. <p>One afternoon, I believe on a long weekend, something came over me. He was sitting in the living room watching something. I turned off the TV and said, "Dont' say anything. Just listen." The words just flowed from my mouth. I told my H that I loved him. I told him that I want to be M and I love being M. I told him that for me, YOU ARE EITHER M OR YOU ARE NOT. I had written a letter of marital death and grief to myself the day before and I read it to him. Then I told him I was washing my hands of his mess. The ball was in his court. Then I walked out the door and went for a long walk. <p>CS, I just think we all have to find that place for ourselves. All BSes need to focus on themselves not so much the A. Your life will not and does not have to end because of the A or because of your H's mess.<p>You should take this time to focus on your own issues. Please find a way to do this for yourself. Your M is not all about him. Never was. It is forever changed now. Believe me, so are you and him.<p>You are important and you are the key to this M lasting. Don't you deserve peace, honor, and respect? I think so. Give these gifts to yourself. Stop expecting them from him. Atleast, not now in his state of mind. <p>You want things to change, then change them through you. <p>To make him see the wonderful, strong, and amazing person he is losing, you've got to first believe that you are that amazing, strong, and wonderful person. <p>FOCUS ON YOU NOW,...PLEASE....<p>Just my thoughts.
INTHECLOUDS

Hugs, cs...<p>going through this is just like going through the grief process... shock, denial, anger, depression, acceptance.... you will move back and forth through the process until you finally get to acceptance for longer periods of time... you are grieving the death of your 'old' marriage.<p>have a good day.<p>Cali

CS-<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think maybe I picked the wrong person to fight for.<hr></blockquote>
12 years of M, 3 kids, that's the answer to your question!<p>Your having a down day, a really down day, its to be expected and its ok. Its ok to feel down, to ask why, to wonder if this is all worth it. All of us here have gone through the exact same thing at some point. It is normal, it is understandable, go with it, let it out and let it go. No one expects us to be superhuman, we have emotions and we need to be able to express them, good or bad!<p>When I am feeling really down, I go for a walk. I find a secluded place with a lot of trees and just hang out for a while, listen to the birds sing, watch the clouds go by and forget about everything for a while. I also go window shopping at 'boy toy' stores, or go to the zoo, or museum, or even ride the train for no reason at all. Its the simple things in life that can make a huge difference. Someone here once told me to take a break from WS and the A, forget about it for even a day, it will be there when I get back. What do you do to feel better? Even if you have the kids, there is plenty of easy things to do with them that will take you mind off of WH and the A.<p>So WH lied to you, did you really expect anything less? Remember to expect nothing and you wont be disappointed. You ask why does he continue to lie if he is done with the M, because he isn't! He just doesn't know what to do. He is in the fog, big time, nothing you can do about it. Yes, it sucks knowing that he lies, we just have to accept it and understand that they are suffering from a type of mental illness. When you called him the other night and heard OW in the background, what do you think happened over there after he hung up, think OW was maybe a little upset? WH still has a huge emotional attachment to you, that's something you don't just get over after 12 years of M. So, in a way, he is having an A on the OW, an EA with you! That's why I keep saying that things cant be all lovey-dovey over there either.<p>Clouds reply has a lot to say to you, listen to what she is saying because you too will get to the point where she is. I just hope your H doesn't put you through the same kind of crap hers did. And Cali is right about the grieving, that's exactly what you are doing. Somewhere here is a post about a book or something that explains the grieving process, I have read it and it makes a lot of sense.<p>OK, so you are feeling down, feeling depressed, feeling like giving up. But I know you aren't, I know you have the strength to continue on, I know you are a strong woman who is tenacious and determined. Look at your kids, look in their eyes for the strength you nee to continue on. Whats your plan, what are you going to do to make yourself feel better? The long weekend is coming, make some plans to have some real fun!

Thank you so much for the heartfelt replies. WH and I had a big discussion today. It was all baloney. He did confirm that he is still seeing OW. I called him back and told him that I am not ever going to reconcile with him, ever. I said there was 10 percent of me still hoping that things would work and I couldn't hold myself open anymore. I am so depressed today. He said there's alot more than 10 percent of him hoping things..I told him to stop, it was too late, I didn't want to hear anymore and I was done. He said he had thought things were going better except for today and it's conversations like this that made him leave. Well, screw it. He left his family and I've had it. I told him again not to ever approach me about getting back together. He had made his decision.
I asked him to get the kids tonight (I am very upset and teary) and he said he couldn't. Guess why? Confirms my decision.
I can't take care of everything by myself, house, kids, and look for a real job (am lawyer) and study for the bar in this new state and go through a divorce. I just simply can't do it. I am getting rid of the house.
Thanks for all your support. I cried all the way through your last replies. I just couldn't do it.
-CS

HI. It's a new day. If you read my prior post, you'll understand why I feel so drained today. I feel like not getting out of bed (but have to). I talked to WH this a.m. Nothing new to report. He said he'd like to get along like Monday and Tuesday -that it was great. But I can't do it. I can't remain friendly to him without hurting for more. I am just not there. He wants his twice a week pleasant family time and his single life and then everything's great for him. I am not going to provide that for him. It's at a too great of cost to me.
Have a great day. I am going to try to.
-CS

((((((CS))))))<p>I know exactly how you are feeling. Us BS's want so desperately for something to happen, something positive from the WS that will show us that everything is going to be ok, that things will work out. And when that doesn't happen, we get so angry, so depressed, so overwhelmed, its understandable. We have all been in that place, I have done and said the exact same things that you have and I know many more here have as well. Clouds said that she sensed your desperation and she is right, now its time to take a step back.<p>Its time to take a break, a break from WH, from OW and from the A. You need a mental vacation right now. Is there anyone around who could watch your kids overnight so you can get away? Maybe you can go out of town somewhere just to be by yourself. Maybe plan something for when WH has the kids? This doesn't mean going to Plan B, it just means you are giving yourself some breathing room.<p>You may want to consider limiting contact with WH right now as well. You seem to be at a point emotionally where anything WH says or does is only going to lead to serious LB-ing on your part. You have said some things that were probably more emotional than anything else and right now you probably feel that is what you want. But, I can guarantee that in a few days you will be feeling a lot different. That's why no LB-ing is so important, it keeps you from saying or doing something you may regret later on.<p>One thing that I have noticed about myself is that I get myself stuck in a rut. I find myself living the same things over and over, having the same feelings day in and day out. Sounds like you may be doing the same thing right now. I find that when that happens, I need to change my routine in order to get out of that rut, even something simple like taking a much longer drive from or to work helps.<p>All is not lost, CS, don't give up yet (just read fairydust's post, look what has happened there). IMHO, here are some very positive things that your WH has said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> He said there's alot more than 10 percent of him hoping things…..
He said he'd like to get along like Monday and Tuesday -that it was great. <hr></blockquote><p>CS- WH still has some very strong feelings for you, they are just clouded by the fog. No one knows what is going on in his head, what kind of influence the OW has on him, why he is acting like this. He just is, don't internalize it and take it personally. Do you want to wake up 10 years from now alone and wonder if you did all that you could have done to save the M, or would you rather wake up 10 years from now (maybe alone, or maybe with the best XWH there ever was!) and know you did everything, and I mean everything, you could do?<p>What you are going through is perfectly normal, we have all felt this way, and it will pass. You will get through this (you don't have a choice, do you?) and become a better person because of it. Let God take care of you, let Him guide you through this horrible time of your life. By the way, your becoming a lawyer, and WH thinks he can just treat you like that and get away with it? Talk about being in the fog! I think having a S who is an attorney ought to be incentive enough to refrain from any kind of A behavior. If my W were an attorney, I'd be the biggest PW'd, yes-dear H there ever was! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

CS...We are with you no matter what you decide to do. Hang in there sweetie. Be patient. You are not alone and never have been. You've got your children, us, God, and you've always had yourself. Do the best thing for you. I promise it will, in time, get easier. <p>Be patient..you'll see. May not be today, tomorrow, or a year from now, but it will happen and everyday you'll grow stronger and wiser. After the grief dies down and this life lesson ends, you'll see that ...that strength and wisdom you are feeling, is the best feeling in the world. It leads to change for the better, in cases like ours...and that is a good thing.<p>One day at a time...
INTHECLOUDS <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

LRS and ITC:
Hi. Thanks for response. Yes, I do need to take a step back and not deal with it for awhile -easier said then done but I am going to try. I do hate what I said to him but some of it is true. I feel like I have an open wound that keeps getting hurt again. WH said today that he wanted to talk after I get back from camping. He said again today that he doesn't know what he wants. I don't think he does. Fog.
I am taking the kids camping this weekend so that'll help.
I have to believe both of you that this will get better. It has to. I've been through alot in my life and this experience has got to be the worst.
Very funny about the lawyer comment. Unfortunatley, WH feels pretty safe as I am not bar passed in this state and have worked part-time in other areas (homeless programs, etc.)since kids were born. I am not too scary but I will be soon. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (February). I did exercise today so I feel alittle better about myself.
Have a wonderful weekend and thank you both of you for writing. I truly need it.
-CS