a reply to my other thread (New revelations)
raised an intersting question within me<p>What happens when you cant forgive?? its been almost 2 years and i cnnot forgive him with all my heart.
not only for his EA but for neglecting his children during this time and his present attitude toward anything to with me or the kids. hes very short tempered and angry all the time<p>i cnnot find it in my heart to Truely 100% forgive him for ruinig my life and our marriage

I don't want to be misunderstood here....I feel for you and the pain and neglect you and your children went through....but....<p>Not being able to forgive sounds like a major issue of YOURS. Has your H worked at reconcilliation? Has he shown remourse for his actions? Has he become a better husband and father? If you can say yes to those questions, then the issue is yours. If the answer to those questions is NO, then it's NO WONDER you can't forgive.<p>I wasn't sure if I could ever forgive my H. He didn't cheat on me, but he did emotionally abandon me after we lost everything in a tornado. He also took me VERY for granted in our marriage. I had a lot of resentment. I truly believed that if I stayed married to him I would never be able to forgive him. Well, that would have been unfortunate.<p>Have you had any counseling? Individual or marital? Do you have any idea why you feel you can't forgive him? Are you afraid that if you trust him again he'll only hurt you again? Are you just afraid to let your guard down? That's a very miserable way to live and totally unhealthy. I guess it's my opinion that life holds no guarantees...and I trust MYSELF. By trusting that I can handle any emotions or thoughts or pain that comes my way, I don't have to worry about the "what if's" nearly as much.

Hoping,
Let me start by answering your questions.<p>
H has worked at reconciliation only enough to save the shattered remnants of our very short marriage, and i feel that once he realized i was not going to seperate with him because of his actions he seemed to care even less about the marriage as a whole.<p>So in all to answer the question of has he bacame a better husband and father my answer would have to be " when he feels like it"<p>I have had no couciling H doesnt like them and whenever i m ention going to indivisual counciling he has the audacity to ask me why i need couciling.<p>I dont really know if its fear that is making it so i cannot forgive him . Please see my thread new revelation for more details on the current situation<p>
thanks for your time
luv,
Roxy

Ok...so it doesn't sound like you are satisfied with your marriage...nor does it sound like he seems all that interested. That would definatly explain to an extent why you are still feeling less than forgiving.<p>So....what are YOU going to do about it? You can divorce and you'll get rid of one problem...but you'll invite hords more. You can continue the way you are and become more bitter and resentful and the two of you can make each other miserable (then you'd be my inlaws!!!). Or, you can do something about this.<p>You said if you mention individual counseling he says this and that. Why is is about him? You don't need to ask permission to become a healthy and happy individual. Gain some strength here. If you are unhappy with your life or your marriage, do something different.<p>You're still holding your husband responsible for the way you feel. If you're miserable...you're the one responsible. I learned this lesson the hard way....and yes I was the WS...but trust me, it rings true regardless.<p>You very well may be the key to turning your marriage around...but the only way you'll know is if you decide to try. Step one would be to quit focusing on how anyone but yourself is responsible for the way you feel. It changed my life when I figured that out and began to live every day with that realization.

"i cnnot find it in my heart to Truely 100% forgive him for ruinig my life and our marriage"<p>Who gave him the power to ruin everything in your life with a few poor decisions?<p>His actions caused damage...not total destruction.<p>His actions hurt your marriage and you...they didn't ruin your entire life.<p>I think this board has tons of "success" stories that will tell you that FAR WORSE has happend to a marriage and still not destroyed it completely.<p>Love is a choice.<p>Forgiveness is a choice.<p>Happiness is a choice.<p>And all are actions.

Luv,
This is a little long, and roundabout, but I'm hoping my rambling can give you another perspective.<p>First of all, if you want to go to counseling, go. I think it would really benefit you. If your H asks why, tell him it is because you are unhappy, are struggling with how your life has turned out and you want outside direction (or whatever it is you want).<p>Second, and this is similar to what hoping4 is saying, sometimes when I read posts by BSs whose WS were involved in EAs, rather than PAs I have conflicting reactions. The first is, at least it wasn't a PA . But the following thought is, it seems that there is always some doubt about EAs, what lines were crossed--touching, hugging, kissing, not as many clothes as there should be, and, is it all a lie/denial/cover-up for a PA.<p>And, betrayal is betrayal, whether EA or PA, it hurts and it is wretched.<p>One of the things I did when my H had left me twice, while all the time denying an A of any kind while it was actually 8 months into the PA, was I imagained worst case scenario. Yes he's having an affair...and what is my reaction? Do I still want to be married? Are there extenuating circumstances that would make me seek a divorce? Can I forgive ANYTHING?<p>I ended up being the BS in a worst case scenario, or at least pretty bad, worse than my imaginary worst case--the PA was following a long EA with a co-worker, the PA didn't end any of the times he told me it did and went on for 18 months, during which he left me & my children 7 times. <p>And perhaps I'm strange, but that early worst case scenario had already led me to my decision that I loved my H & I would try to save my marriage or at the very least remain at the emotional point where I could reconcile with him, and once I became familiar with MB, it was easy to overlay Dr. Harley's 2 year time frame onto my situation.<p>It was over 2+ years since the PA had started until we reconciled the last time, now 2 years ago (omigosh to the day! May 14 [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I didn't even realize it till this moment)<p>Just as it can be a constant worry to feel ignorant about the details of the A, I still felt no comfort to be told the WS did "everything" with the OP. But, I forgive him. It's rare for me to trigger on any dates (obviously, since I practically missed today), though events are a little harder for me, some events were bad 3 years in a row.<p>I had to forgive for me. Unforgiveness is a kind of anger. Anger leads to depression, despair and bitterness. I was well on the road to bitterness and it was ugly.<p>You can choose to forgive, as an action. Forgiving is in part realizing and accepting that you live with the consequences of someone else's actions/behavior. You can extend, it helps if the person is sorry, shows remorse and changes their behavior, but you can forgive regardless of the other person. You don't even have to tell them they are forgiven. <p>I made a list of everything that hurt, angered, pained me. Whether it was him or her or in some cases, me or an event, behavior, conversation and for one last time got good and riled up [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] (it helps if you can do this when you are alone). Psalms 55 is a good guide, David is angry with a friend who has loved and betrayed him. Then, you give it up to God. Tear up the paper. And when those hurts come back into your mind, refuse them entrance.<p>Our thoughts really do steer our emotions & sometimes our actions. "As a man thinks, so is he". If you are dwelling on the negative and the unchangeable, it will drag you down.<p>If you never know the complete truth of your H's actions, assuming the worst & dealing with it that way is an option. I know it is frustrating to not know, to not be sure...but it is in the past and you already know dwelling on it is depressing and sickening to you and dispiriting to your "tired" husband.<p>I know letting go of the past was one of the best things I did for myself.<p>You are then free to concentrate on today, and hope for the future. If it all goes to heck tomorrow, that's a problem for tomorrow and not worth today's worry.<p>If you have forgiven, you have forgiven and you can practice realizing that, along with, your life is changed, only you control if you view it as ruined or being re-built.<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

Wow Lor, that was really beautiful. I'm glad I stopped toread this post. I don't want to hijack this thread, but just wanted to thank you for your wise words. I needed something like this today. C

Firefly,
You're welcome. It was a lesson hard-learned, but for me, the key to managing and succeeding within myself.

Kronik,<p>I outlined the Bible model of forgiveness for you on another thread. I don't share the view that a BS or any other offended person is obligated to forgive an unrepentant person or that it is even in their best interest to do so. Letting go of anger and vengeance is a definite must, but forgiveness follows repentance. The best thing to do is spend a little time examining it the way Lor did--Can I forgive, even if it is the worst I can imagine, will I be able to forgive that?<p>To this date, I have not forgiven my ex-H because he has never repented or even admitted to any wrongdoing towards me. Does that mean I hold a grudge against him? No. I've always wished him well. He is the one with a vendetta who continues to terrorize me to this day. My desire is that he simply leave me and my loved ones alone. He has piled up quite a mass of harm against me and mine, but I'm still prepared to forgive should he ever ask.<p>Unlike my ex-H, my current H confessed his A, expressed remorse, promised to do "anything" to repair the damage to our M, and literally fell on me crying his heart out, hanging onto me for dear life. I had no problem forgiving him. I could feel the agony in his heart, and I wanted to ease it. The only pain I can imagine worse than what I'm feeling is if *I* was responsible for inflicting this pain on another human being.<p>Since then, my H reneged on his promises, and there were more D-days, and he has racked up another pile of stuff to deal with. I'm sure I'll have no problem with forgiveness when he's ready to ask for it, but until then it is his responsibility, not mine.<p>Just a few days ago, Spacecase posted a quote about forgiveness from the book After The Affair which explains it very well. I encourage you to read it:<p>www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017598<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conquerer,
I am fortunate that my H is repentent, has asked my forgiveness, has followed it up with 2 years of being a good husband. So, my unforgiveness was within me, maybe different than what Luv/Kronik is describing. Although, when I think of the OW, who will never ask for forgiveness...I can more clearly see what you are saying. I'm more dismissing of her than forgiving.<p>Sometimes, like with death or someone who is out of your life who hurt you, you'll never receive repentence, so what then do you do with your unforgiveness?<p>I'm not being contrary, I'm wondering.<p>Neil T. Anderson's devotional is the quickest explanation I've found for dealing with unforgiveness that has turned to bitterness. My Christian counselor is one of the best Bible teachers I've ever listened to, and I believe he was right on target with leading me through forgiveness.<p>So, LUV, 2 different viewpoints, perhaps with differing variables.<p>I think part of the question is, you are unhappy, how do you get to a better emotional place?<p>You said you tried to forgive, so I assumed you wanted to forgive. This is what helped me, but we might not be on the same path.

Lor, As always your heartfelt emotions come through in your posts and taking the time to post to me makes me feel good you are well respected on these boards and its an honor to get a reply from you.<p>learnig to forgive is hard for me because i guess we could say that i feel until i have ALL the details my heart wont allow me to feel hes being True with me.<p>i have no remorse for not forgiving him... just as he most likely has no remorse for hiding details from me.<p>of course most WS's will say that this is to spare my feelings but i have no feeling where my H is concerned. and until i know all the horid details i will not be able to start rebuilding my marriage...<p>H insists it was only an EA with one kiss however he did sleep at her house a few times and there were many nights in this time frame where he didnt come home at all.<p>and he expects me to believe that nothing happened
my gut insting tells me there was more and i wait hoping for the day when the truth will roll off his tongue and then we can be on our way to recovery.<p>Conquor.
thank you for seeing my side of things fora while i thought i was loosing it.
i just need him to feel remorse .... not for 1 day but forever one day he will say that hes sorry and actually look remorseful the next hes back in fog land saying it wasnt a big deal.<p>i cannot compete with fog.

Luv/Kronik,
I thought about your topic a lot yesterday & last night. Especially as Conqueror says even God requires repentence, and finally the Bible verse/passage came to me:<p>Luke 23:33, 34<p>When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."<p>The guards & officials had no remorse, no repentence, yet Jesus words indicate not only did he forgive them, but asked God to as well.<p>I think that is the Biblical model.<p>Your situation comes down to you can't make your H do anything, so, what is it you can do to bring peace of mind to you?

First of all, we are not Jesus. We are not divine. We are to be ChristLIKE, but we are not Christ.<p>Christ is our Intercessor. At Golgotha, He was ASKING God, the Father, to have mercy on those who did not know that they were crucifying God's only begotten Son. He was interceeding on their behalf, but the Father does not take orders from the Son. Just the night before in Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) Throughout eternity Jesus has submitted to the Father.<p>There are a multitude of verses that speak to confession, repentance, and forgiveness in all different types of relationships, and Revelation reveals very colorfully what will happen to the unrepentant. That very same Jesus will say, "I never knew you."<p>WE are the ones who are to obey commands, not God. We are to "love our enemies and do good", but nowhere are we commanded to forgive the unrepentant. We are commanded repeatedly to repent and seek forgiveness. IMO, the Biblical model is clear, and if there is ever any confusion, obviously what God commands us to do is what we should do.<p>Here is just one of God's commands regarding forgiveness:<p>Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF HE REPENT, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I REPENT; thou shalt forgive him. (Luke 17:3,4)<p>In Luke 23:34, Jesus is speaking to God. In the above verses, Jesus is speaking to me. I know I am not God, and what Jesus tells me to do above is very clear.<p>It is important to follow the chain of command. Picture a huge business corporation and you are at the bottom of that chain of command. Suppose you see a proposal the Vice President submitted to the CEO. Suppose also that you have a memo the Vice President gave you the week before giving you specific instructions for the project he has assigned you. What is your responsibility to the CEO of the Universe? Do you intercept the proposals sent to Him and implement them, or do you submit to righteous authority and follow the specific instructions you were given by Him through the One He sent to you?<p>We are to put away all bitterness, AND we are to forgive the repentant. We wouldn't be commanded to do these things if we weren't capable of doing both.<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I have had no couciling H doesnt like them and whenever i m ention going to indivisual counciling he has the audacity to ask me why i need couciling.<p>And? So, he asked, does his question keep you from going? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] If you thought you were dying, would you not go to the hospital just because someone asks you why you need to go to the hospital? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Go to counseling regardless of any questions (or requests that you not attend) by your H. Forgiveness is the main thing I am currently working on with my counselor.