To anyone who can help!
My W and I have been around here since jan02 and done much reading. Ours has been a long struggle of over 31/2yrs. I am the WS and since early March of this year have made no effort to have contact with the OW and she the same. My W and I were continuing to work even though we were having a more difficult time lately. Last week I saw the OW in a local shopping center as we both drove in. I went and had a conversation with her and I shared this with my W the other night and the $%^&! hit the fan. My W was very upset that I had the conversation even though the meeting was just by chance and there hadn't been contact for 3 months. Yes, I ended up having an inappropriate relationship with what had become a very close friend. I messed up and I know it. It made my W uncomfortable from the beginning but she has done more than most to be understanding. My question to anyone who would answer is....Are there any situations that the "no contact" rule could not apply? I know what the books say. I just dislike having to ignore another person with whom I had established a meaningful friendship with even though it took a wrong turn. I'm not trying to be wishy-washy here. I am really looking for help. I would hope that you would take a moment to think before answering and YES, look at it from both sides,my W's and mine. I'm not trying to defend either side but just get outside input. This whole problem is basically my fault and I accept that.
Thanks for any insight.
Brw [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

brw<p>Emotions run high on all sides, and yes I understand the friend part. I too am a fws and I know how hard it is not to have the person you learned to share everything with, but if you were serious about working it out and your wife asked for the NO CONTACT . Then you know you should have walked away and not spoke to this woman and she should know you are trying to fix your marriage and not expect you to speak. <p>
That too your wife was just about the same as crawling back in bed with this woman.. sounds extreme but thats how it felt to your wife.. it was a continued threat, if you become friends with this woman .. you are leaving it open to restart the A. You know this as well.. it leaves the door open.
I know it is hard, but you need to rethink having contact, it is important to your marriage,

Hi Brw,
I am in a very similar situation as you. I have been out of A since very early march. I left employment with OM and ended A. I have had 1 meeting with him and several phone calls. It goes in cycles, I can go a long time without any contact, I fight off my desire to talk to him sometimes often and other times there is little desire. It is a fog that we are in. I call it the spell I'm under.
It was said today that the typical fog lasts 6 months and this period of time is very accurate with no contact.
I must admit, the limited contact I have had over the past 3 months has set me back at times. Not each time, as we've argued during some of our calls where I felt better about leaving him after speaking with him. In your case, you saw her and I'm sure you got that rush that I know I feel in my insides when I see my ex-OM. Not the same as looking at pictures or a phone call either. Seeing the person made me long for some kind of contact all over again. I tried to rationalize some contact in my own mind and only coming here helped me to see again that I should not hope for a relationship with this man, with whom I also loved deeply. We shared a very special friendship and our love ran deep over alot of years. I do understand how you feel.
After I saw him again, I sounded alot like you do right now.

<<<I just dislike having to ignore another person with whom I had established a meaningful friendship with even though it took a wrong turn.>>><p>I'll bet your wife would like to know why this other woman's friendship is still more important to you than your wife's feelings. Not to mention your marriage.<p>And don't tell me "it's not." If this other woman's friendship WASN'T still more important to you, you would have turned the car around and driven away the minute you saw her at the shopping center. There would have been no question and no hesitation about that.<p>You're still fishing around for a way to have both your wife and this OP in your life. Nice for you, but pure hell for your wife. If you don't see why you shouldn't do that to the person you married, then you still have a long way to go.<p>Sorry if you think this is harsh, but that's the cold reality of stuff like this. You are not ever going to understand unless and until you are on the other side of this particular fence -- and you know what? I really hope it never happens to you. There are very few people who deserve to be tormented like that.
Psycho_B***h

brw,<p>Sorry, your W is correct !!!. You could just walk away not even talking to her. Yes, you saw her in the same area, it is coincidence ... granted ... but you bring your @ss walked and talked to her !. Everytime you have contact with OP your recovery clock start from zero again and guess what ... hers too !!!. She might not be able to move on !.<p>I could feel this !!!. Last year I almost have EA w/ BE if you follow my earlier post. I had been no contact w/ her, (Lady sing is watching me [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) and I am all fine. Out of sight, out of mind ... however yesterday by chance I met her in a project presentation. I could walk away from this random chance, (btw, I still have a rain check to go to spa & ice cream walk [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ) but I intentionally bring my stupid @ss and talk to her. No excuse. Only breif encounter but I know it will start chain of email again ... I might wait for her email and she probably does the same ... etc ... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Walk away from her ! and btw always go with your W from now on to that shopping mall, never go alone. Ammends your W.<p>-RH-

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong><<<I just dislike having to ignore another person with whom I had established a meaningful friendship with even though it took a wrong turn.>>><p>I'll bet your wife would like to know why this other woman's friendship is still more important to you than your wife's feelings. Not to mention your marriage.<p>And don't tell me "it's not." If this other woman's friendship WASN'T still more important to you, you would have turned the car around and driven away the minute you saw her at the shopping center. There would have been no question and no hesitation about that.<p>You're still fishing around for a way to have both your wife and this OP in your life. Nice for you, but pure hell for your wife. If you don't see why you shouldn't do that to the person you married, then you still have a long way to go.<p>Sorry if you think this is harsh, but that's the cold reality of stuff like this. You are not ever going to understand unless and until you are on the other side of this particular fence -- and you know what? I really hope it never happens to you. There are very few people who deserve to be tormented like that.
Psycho_B***h</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Emotions do run high here. Psycho is speaking from the other side, Mom has been on both, and I am on the same side of the fence as you are.
I got alot of harsh reactions and still do when I say what I'm really thinking. It happens brw but in case you are thinking (as I have a few times) the hell with this and these people, what do they know about being a WS anyway, I'm outta here... remember some things.
We all come here because we want to rebuild our M's and we are in different stages of that process. Take what helps you and leave the rest.
The WS is in alot of pain during WD and BS are in alot of pain even after our WD once they find out about our A. They can't or don't always understand how the hell we can do or feel the way we do and we can't always empathize with them. Especially while under the spell of OP and in WD.
I have also gotten some very good advice from BS and other WS/OP's who have alot of good experience to share. Good luck.

brw:<p>I've been on both sides of this darn fence, so I have a pretty good perspective.<p>First of all, you (and all of us) have to realize that the moment infidelity comes into a marriage "fairness" gets thrown out the window. It may not seem fair that you have to ignore or hurt the OW in order to respect your marriage. But fair doesn't even come into play now, so don't even try to play that card. None of this situation is "fair". It stinks, pure and simple. <p>You lost the right to have any contact with the OW the moment you crossed the line. Period. In my situation, we have solid boundaries: neither my H nor I can have any contact AT ALL with the OP. If any of them call or try to contact us, we are to immediately hang up or walk away without saying a word! Who do you owe respect to, your wife or the OW? If you can't say "wife" without hesitation, or if you said "both", you've still got a LONG way to go. <p>Since my FWH had more than one affair, he knows that he simply can't have good female friends. He's not to be alone with a woman at all, and is never to call a woman unless except for business purposes. Period. Setting indefinite personal boundaries after infidelity is the smart thing to do. <p>If these boundaries had been firmly set and religiously maintained, then your question would be a mute point right now. The conversation at the mall never should have happened. <p>PLEASE take all the advice from these posts to heart. You may think casual contact with OW is no big deal, but ask yourself this question: Is friendship with OW (or any other woman) worth the risk of losing my wife? <p>Good luck to you. It's great that you're here trying to recover your marriage.<p>at peace<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: at peace ]</p>

Oh my,oh my.....What a list of responses!Let me start down the list.
Mom0f5, Very well said and probably very accurate. My W would and has said almost the same words. Your especially right when you say the emotions run high on both sides.
Psycho_b, To say the least pretty direct but not much different than I've heard at times before. Spoken from someone who is in the middle of the storm,I'm sure. I still appreciate your reply.
Redhat, You old rascal! Good to hear from you.You know what the process was it is obvious. The struggle is dealing with the "real" situation itself isn't it?
Atpeace, It sounds as if you have worked through these problems from both sides. I guess that I have been kinda blind or stubborn in realizing what the extent of the "boundaries" are. You are probably right when you say "fairness' is out the window. I tend to be an "idealist" some times instead of a "realist" If that makes any sense.
Thanks.
CMiranda, I purposely chose to respond to you last. Why? You seem to be at somewhat of the same place.
I try not to get too concerned when someone comes out "firing" on these posts. I know that we all are at different levels in our respective situations not to mention different "sides of the fence". We are all here to be "heard" and "listen". My W always brings up the word "choices" to me and as you and the others have said....in this situation fairness is out and the whole thing sucks.(sorry)
Thanks to all of you for sharing and for the thoughts.
Brw
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Oh, and one more thing...........
Some of you may be right......I may still have a long way to go.
Brw [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

brw: ".....I may still have a long way to go."<p>
Most of us do, brw. I guess marriage is really a journey that isn't supposed to end...so we should do our best make it a pleasant journey for everyone!<p>Good luck to you...I wish you peace!<p>at peace

Hey brw,<p>Quick question.. are you following the Policy of Joint Agreement?<p>It is the best way to deal with any of these types of situations. Simple as that.. it's a stop sign. It works for us anyway. <p>Just my 2 cents.<p>Good luck, hang in there! You can do it... it's worth it!<p>TTFN - JB

Redhat is right, the recovery clock has been reset to zero for you, your W, your M, AND the OW now. How sad.<p>What is your plan for the next time you see the OW? That is the most important question, just as Steve Harley asks every single WS: What was your plan for protecting your M from infidelity? If you don't have a plan, you'd better draft one right away.<p>Might I suggest that you include this as part of your plan for the future: If you happen to notice the OW within your line of sight or she comes to your attention in any other way, ask yourself, "Whom and what will I protect?"<p>And I suggest you count your lucky stars that your W was only "very upset". There would have been dead calm around here and papers served tomorrow. If my H can't even get Basic Infidelity 101, then there's no point in waiting around for the more evolved, higher-cost behaviors necessary for marriage rebuilding after infidelity.<p>And there is fairness involved in this situation. Fairness is behaving like you're married when you're married. Fairness is caring for and protecting your spouse. There's plenty of fairness to be had. You only have to want to be fair.<p>PB is dead-on right, and she is in no more of a storm than the rest of us. Your actions told your W and the OW and should tell you that a casual conversation with a person toxic to your M was more important to you than protecting your W. You did exhibit fairness, however, by telling your W how dangerous to her you are, so I applaud that.<p>It's not so much the attachment to the OW that is the problem with this type of situation. It is a demonstration of the lack of insight that led the WS down the infidelity road in the first place. It is also a graphic demonstration of the WS's failure to protect the BS. If all the OW had to offer was a casual conversation, and you couldn't walk away from that, then what hope is there that you'll walk away from her next offer or any other OW's offer when it comes along?<p>I spoke directly to Dr. Harley about this exact problem, and he told me that as long as my H did not have insight into how he pursues women (translated in your case as choosing to escalate a chance sighting to a one-on-one conversation), all we're doing is working on the next A (his because of lack of insight OR mine because of his failure to care for and protect me). In order to rebuild, both the BS AND the WS have to "get it".<p>You had no choice about the OW showing up at the mall, but once you saw that she was there, you did have choices, many of them, yet you chose an option poisonous to your M. Why? You don't have to tell me, but you really need to understand yourself why you make these choices and why you need to choose differently if you want to have an affair-proof M.<p>Not only are you at risk for ending up where you were before, but these types of decisions LB your W to death, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how it enhances HER vulnerability to an A.<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

at Peace, Well said and with a lot of understanding in the face of such a messy situation for all of us. Peace....isn't that what we all want out of life?<p>kb4jb, We haven't really put the POJA down in stone. It's more or less "assumed" maybe is the word I'm looking for which is ambigious at best. I'm sure after this latest event it will become MUCH clearer.<p>Conqueror, You gave me quite a bit to think about. Not that I don't think about all this constantly anyhow. My W's words the other night and many times before are "You just don't get it!". So you are dead-on,too.
I can't tell you how patient my W has been over all this time. It would make most people ask "Why?" she would put herself through all this.
I have tried all my life to be fair to anyone in my life. It was never my intent to hurt anyone. I don't think I can adequately present my side of things and more over it probably doesn't mean squat anyhow. I never thought I had all the answers to this.As I said earlier....I have a long way to go.
Thanks to those who gave me your thoughts and to any who would reply in the meantime.
Brw
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

brw: <p>Hey, don't go away yet! *I* haven't had my chance at you yet! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Let me tell you a little story about my thinking over the past 4 months since D-day #1 that is relevant here.<p>On D-day #1, I was devastated. I cried OUT LOUD for a good half hour with my head in my WW's lap the whole time. I was so lost that when she asked me if I'd be okay that day while she went to work, I just said "No" and I MEANT it. I was probably as close to being suicidal as I ever have been in my entire life. <p>So, why did I stay or why didn't I throw her out immediately thereafter? Good question. I didn't know anything about MB or any other sites or methods for saving Ms shattered by infidelity. In fact, while my trust and respect for my W was totally destroyed at that moment, I felt an intense compassion for her and a strong desire to understand what happened to us that led to this happening in the first place. <p>So, I got almost immediately into Cing, found this site, and started reading a lot. I was feeling better over time, because OM lives in another state and W had told me about any continued contact, promising it would be professional email only. Then D-day #2 hit. W emailed OM ON MY BIRTHDAY, essentially saying "it was over" but with a LOT more than just the simple "how are you, you pitiful [censored]?" remark in it, which I intercepted when OM replied with a remark about fondling her (ignoring her desire to end the EA) 4 days later. I very nearly threw her out and ended our M right there on the spot. She doesn't even know this, so she's still confused as to why I told her mother and our daughter about the A. She really didn't think anything serious was in the message, and why was I so upset about it? So, her already pretty low respect and trust from me was dropped several more notches. <p>Then, D-day #3 comes along. By this time I'm doing a much better plan A than ever before, and we're getting along great. All the while, though, I know she's had OM send professional emails to her work address (where I don't have access), and she's stopped telling me about even those. I hear about them at our MC sessions a week or two later. Each time, now, I'm "prepared" for the next one, and so I am not as "hurt" by them, but I AM UNABLE to rebuild my trust or respect in her one bit because she demonstrates each and every time she has contact (knowing that I want NO contact) that she doesn't give a rat's a$$ how I feel about it. <p>So now, even though we're getting along pretty well (my plan A is working!), she's gaining exactly 0% more respect and trust from me because she doesn't care enough to have OM send email to a coworker that we both know and who knows about the A. Also, my desire to keep up my plan A is dwindling. I'm exhausted, I'm falling off in productivity seriously at work, and I feel like I could blow this M apart in a New York Minute if I hear of even a simple "how are you, you poor [censored]?" being spoken. <p>I've been lied to constantly for almost 12 years now. Never mind what I did to contribute to our M decline. We both are responsible for that. But I'm wasting money on Cing to argue yet again about why my W won't cut off contact when the A "ended" in November, and each time it comes up my W is oblivious as to how much it hurts that it continues because she's "not with the program." He!!, she's not with ANY program, except her own.<p>But who am I to know. Maybe her program is the best in the world and all these sites are misguided. But I doubt it very much.<p>So you see? We're getting along well because MB principles are working for ME on ME, but the problems in our M haven't even begun being addressed because my W thinks that this contact is harmless... ...and yet she's been horrified every time I've made even the slightest suggestion that *I* might contact OM myself, or OM's W myself.<p>Do the right thing here. It will be hard for you in the short term. And yes, months to W/D from OW is the short term compared to how long you COULD be M'd to your W from this point on IF you start doing the right thing NOW. But remember too, from my own experience (and many others like mine), that each time you backslide even a little, you've got a lot to undo and rebuild. At some point, you may not be able to rebuild. I know that, at some point, I won't care to rebuild my 26.5yr M if I keep getting these "surprises" that contact is still going on.<p>Sorry for the long vent. I hope it helps someone.

Here’s another way to look at this entire thing.<p>Is there someone in your life who has back stabbed you or ripped you off? Say a business partner, or a co-worker. Most of us have at least one person like that in our life. Maybe someone who was once your friend but now is anything but your friend? If you saw that person at the store would you still feel obligated to go up to them be friendly? I don’t think so.<p>Now how would you feel if that person was your wife’s best friend and she insisted on continuing a friendship and being civil to him? Bet you’d feel it was a betrayal of you.<p>Well that’s how your wife feels about this. Every time you talk to the OW you are putting the OW ahead of our wife. You are telling your wife that her feelings are not as important as yours. <p>My FWS says that he is ‘healed’ from his affairs. Life is good for him. He knows that I love him enough to forgive him and stick by him. He has unconditional love. He said that he loved me all along. What I've had is love that did not mean much to him for a long time. As good as our recovery is going I’m still on something of a roller coaster. <p>I’m still left with the hurt and knowing that he did not love me enough to protect me from this. I suppose I’ll have this feeling for the rest of my life. While he walks away relatively unscathed. If I ever find out that my H is continuing any type of relationship, even the type you refer to, with one of his OW I will pack his bags for him. <p>I know that many of the WS here will say that I am being harsh. But I don’t think I am. I’m being real. Long after your pain and withdrawal goes away, your wife will feel that she is second best. She will continue to feel hurt and belittled by your affair. There will always be a feeling that you do not really love her. Any contact with the OW only proves this to her. <p>But I suppose that’s your wife’s problem. No yours.<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

zorweb:<p>"I know that many of the WS here will say that I am being harsh. But I don’t think I am. I’m being real. "<p>You're not being harsh at all. You ARE being real. <p>The reality of my situation is that, the longer this "harmless" contact continues, the harder it is for me to get around the "fact" that my W lied to me about our M for 12 years, and that honesty is so unimportant to her that I very well may not want to live with her anymore, even after we've "recovered" from the mistakes we made in our M that led to the As.<p>I'm certain that, if I saw another email between them like the one on my Birthday, I'd pack her bags for her and find her a place to stay before she got home from work. ...that's what almost happened the last time. I won't go through that pain again for anybody.

I'm a BS<p>Here is the deal. When there has been any type of A, inappropriate friendship, whatever label you want to put on it, ANY contact is out of the question. Taking care of the OP's feelings is not an option if you care ANYTHING about your wife's feelings. <p>It's very simple. Walk away, ignore, do not even acknowlege the presence of the OP. <p>Why do this? Especially if your wife doesn't even know about it? Why be cold and even rude to someone you had a relationship with? For the simple fact that your wife is 1000 times more important to you than any friendship or relationship with any other woman that walks the face of the earth.<p>Any contact is a slap in the face to your wife. Your wifes FEELINGS are what is at stake. It doesnt make a hill of beans difference whether you understand this or agree with it or feel like doing it. JUST DO IT.<p>As far as having "your side of it" goes, you no longer have the luxury of having a "side of it".<p>This is about demonstrating loyalty and respect for your wife even when she is not watching. This is about LOVE and forsaking all others.<p>REPLACED

brw,<p>one word ... temptation !. The intention is the sin, yes I have to struggle too. Specially when I have no one to snuggle at night and I am facing Dv !. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Here it is taken from A Celebration of Sex ....
1. Confession (James 5:16)
2. Repentance (II Cor 7:10)
3. Forgiveness (Colossians 3:13)
4. Grieving (Mat 5:4)
5. Making Amends (Luke 19:8)<p>Hope it helps -RH-

I am just reading the additional replies from last night and would like to reply myself later this evening. I must say that I am throughly "chastised" by these comments which doesn't surprise me and are probably well deserved in all cases. Let me return later.
Brw

brw,<p>I'm sure you probably do know this, but I just want to confirm to you that our intent is to enlighten and warn, not chastise.<p>As another BS who's suffered through multiple D-days, I can confirm that the damage of continued contact after D-day, ESPECIALLY if there is some promise or agreement to end the A and work on the M, is to the damage of contact before D-day what a nuclear bomb is to a hand grenade.<p>I'm not even sure the image of resetting the recovery clock to zero covers the magnitude of it. Granted, anything you've gained since the last contact is completely lost, but you're not starting out again at the same place you started at before because the BS is accordingly more damaged, more depleted, more guarded, more exhausted, more violated, etc., exponentially from where they were on D-day #1. And whatever further damage was incurred on D-day #2 will be multiplied by an even greater exponent when D-day #3 comes along, and so forth, until it reaches critical mass, and no recovery is to be had, period.<p>Most of us don't know how many D-days we have in us when we start off. I was finished BEFORE D-day #1, but my H's confession, remorse, and promises gave me enough fuel to try recovery. I soon learned he had no intention of following a recovery plan and discovered I was in Plan A. Then, I got enough fuel from this forum to get through all the D-days (lost count) until even all that was used up and I was ready for Plan B after 4 months in Plan A.<p>Once again, my H promised recovery, and once again, I took the bait, and once again, here I am 4 months later, STILL waiting for recovery. At least there have been no more D-days during this 4 months, and he has managed to avoid LBs, but the balance in his account in my LB$ is so low that another D-day will close the account for good.<p>In fact, just the other night, there was a precipitous drop in his account when I suspected that he might have just SEEN the OW and wasn't telling me about it one way or the other. The drop was arrested when I didn't smell anything funny in his responses to my questions about it, but the withdrawal to that point stands because he FAILED to reassure me that he DIDN'T see her when the possibility existed.<p>This is how precarious the WS's balance in the BS's LB$ is and is relevant to the WS who truly wants to rebuild the M. Of course, a WS whose LB$ is depleted probably doesn't care about the BS's LB$, but those WSes who do care about their M really need to make themselves aware of the fragility of their account in the BS's LB$.<p>As Zorweb pointed out, our default position is one of knowing we were tremendously devalued by our spouse, knowing we have not been the WS's one-and-only during the M as they have been for us. We are painfully aware of our one-down position, and if that is not compensated for by both the BS learning to self-validate and the WS taking responsibility for the violation and making amends, then the M will continue to deteriorate.<p>You cannot go back to being a "normal" married couple. There is a whole new set of rules because none of the old assumptions apply. The previously "normal" everyday events of life take on a whole new malevolence and significance.<p>To use your case as an example, brw, "normal" couples think nothing of one of the spouses having a conversation with a friend s/he ran into at the mall. But for an infidelity-scarred couple, something as simple as running into someone at the mall can result in the end of the M if the shopping spouse fails to appreciate the scarred status of his/her M. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>