Conqueror:<p>"To use your case as an example, brw, "normal" couples think nothing of one of the spouses having a conversation with a friend s/he ran into at the mall. But for an infidelity-scarred couple, something as simple as running into someone at the mall can result in the end of the M if the shopping spouse fails to appreciate the scarred status of his/her M."<p>And the sad fact is that these instances keep happening, even with people on this forum that should "know better" because too many WS really don't bother to learn just how deeply affected the BS's are by their backsliding activities. My W would tell you "it wasn't anything you should worry about, when she said (among other hurtful things): "I would love to cry over a few beers with you" in an email to OM on my birthday last March. That was breaking up with OM?<p>I'll say it again. Ceasing contact has to be hard for the WS. But "suffering" like that for a few months will be more than paid back in years of happiness with your spouse, IF you are able to recover.<p>You have to make a choice of monogamy (or POJA an "open M" - yecch!): Either let the BS help you W/D from your OP, or be prepared to let the BS W/D from YOU. It's all in the timing, and it's entirely in your hands.

In my case it was something simple like seeing another W (not OW, just acquaintence) go up and give him a hug and hold his hands while she let him know how she and her family had been praying and thinking about him and our family. (OK, I think she was full of it, but thats my opinion!) <p>I had a terrible day after that with crying and feeling so sad and hurt, and on Mothers Day, of all days! He did not understand what the big deal was, but now he better understands it. This after talking/fighting about it for three days. He understands how I felt about it and my fear of another A upon seeing this. I can't even imagine what I would have felt upon seeing him with OW! I don't even want to think about it. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So yes, I do think that it is difficult for the person who has not been on the receiving end of all this hurt to understand the terrible emotions brought back up when something like this happens. But whether or not there is genuine understanding doesn't really matter. Its about a complete and total respect of the wish concerning no contact that your wife needs and has asked for. Does she deserve less respect than the OW? C

I don't really know what to say after all the replies except to say that the "theme" runs clearly in one direction but with verying tones.
I do know that the overwhelming majority of people who are here do so to help one another with advice and concern. Of that I am sure. I didn't post this topic to receive sympathy or to gain anyone's support per say. I need the opinion of people who "have walked the walk" and how they see themselves in the end. The tragedy of this is that it is just that.....a tragedy to all concerned. Can I say that no matter what the outcome that I can "just walk away" without having a lasting mark put on my soul? I don't believe so. The replies that strike me the most are the ones that have somehow been on both sides of the fence. That can see and feel the pain involved from more than one angle. That doesn't excuse the behavior one bit and doesn't justify it either. I have not for one minute tried to defer blame for my situation onto someone else and especially not my W. I have taken full responsibility for my actions. Where this will end up I don't know. I will shortly have a discussion with my W about the future of "us". I am empty to the core inside.<p>I do know that there are thousands of people in this world that we could call "friends" if we had the chance to know them. Many are right here. We never know when someone will enter our lives and have a profound affect on us and that starts with our families. I guess that what I am getting at is that in these situations there are nothing but losers. We are not in this life to win the biggest prize. We are here to make a difference in one another's lives. I've heard it said that the best testimony to a person's life is how they "lived" their lives. If that isn't something that carries with you forever then I don't know what is. I just hope you can see and feel where I am coming from and KNOW I didn't ever wish to hurt my family or anyone else.
Brw <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

brw:<p>Know this: We do understand how difficult this is for you and your family. These situations are nothing but tragedies for all involved. There are BSs, WSs, OM, OW, and OMW, and OMHs that are affected by these situations. Plus all the extended family. Few people really intend to do the kind of harm that results from an A. Few people intend to HAVE As. It's just one of those tragic things that people get into for whatever reason.<p>We're just here to repair the damage as well as we can. <p>Thanks very much for the thread! And good luck to you and your family.

BRW,
I am new here and only a month with no contact from OM. Last week, I had taken the block off email....... then emailed him two days ago. Even though it was one that was very blunt and to the point its "contact". After that, I expected to hear from him and all sorts of ways I could justify our getting back in touch. After all we've been through for the past two years trying to break things off due to our being married, I relaize things will never change. In ealier breakups, I use to miss him so bad, him too, we'd get back in contact and there we go again. Anyway, I sent the mail as a final farewell basically appolojizing to him for my part in the EA and how wrong it was from the very beginning. I felt guilty mostly to myself for even allowing it to go this far. Now, that that I may be seeing him at an upcoming conference I feel really strange. Like, how am I suppose to act? We never really said goodbye, after a disagreement I just shut him out just like that. I felt like I could be a little embarrassed if I saw him there. As I picture the scenario, I think what I will do is act noraml. Be cordial, but I plan to take my H and son with me. Also, because I am part of the planning committee for which he is an honored guest, contact is necessary. But, I am visualizing myself being cordial, and ignoring him the whole time. I'm not one who can do this type of thing either as I always am polite. But, since I don't want anything further to do with this man, I think I really can do this. I always thought we could be friends, but now I don't think even thats possible. He even said so himself. So, whatelse do we have? I'm afraid nothing. Anyway, I've been through this so much for the past two years that enough is enough. Coming here has helped me see how these EAs have a life of thier own and all seem to have the same experience. I thought waht I had with Om was special, love, etc... but seeing how everyone else's experience correlates with mine, I don't think so. I think the EA is almost a seperate entity of its own. Nothing like a marriage because that based on trust. An EA,PA,A etc.. is created from denial, deciet, lies, sneaking... etc.. we seem to base our newfound soulmate around all of this. When we are in what is called the fog... i think the lingering feelings of the fog lasts for sometime until your ready to let go. And no one really knows when that will be. But, I think thats part of the recovery process. In actualality I think I let go of OM about a year ago. We've pretty much been mourning together but not realizing that it needs to be done apart. When it becomes a reality thats the hardest... when you know its really over. I think I finally admitted to myself that it is over. I have my moments but there is more love from my H and my family than OM could ever give me in this way. I actually feel sorry for him but I realize that in caring for him, I must leave him alone. He may not understand why I don't call, mail or talk with him on the street.... but I really am looking out for the both of us, even if I have to be the bad guy................... Deep down, I know I really am the good guy................. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Good luck to you on your recovery and I applaud your efforts especially in telling your wife. My H dosn't know and for my own reasoning even after reading and learning here I don't intend on telling him. Lets just say, I knew what was going on from the very beginning. i know what i did was wrong but I did it anyway. I have no justifications........ You are definatley on your way........ take care! <p>PS... I am so proud of myself, I put the block back on his mail......... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: MissJasmine ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MissJasmine:
<strong> My H dosn't know and for my own reasoning even after reading and learning here I don't intend on telling him. Lets just say, I knew what was going on from the very beginning. i know what i did was wrong but I did it anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How sad that your H has no idea how dangerous you are to him and even sadder, that you don't either. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

2long,MissJasmine,Conqueror,Mom,CMiranda,Psycho_b,redhat,atpeace,kb4jb,zorweb,Replaced and firefly........We could hash and rehash this for days. I have gotten what I needed from your replies. I needed opinions with thoughtfullness and consideration. I appreciate all of them. It would be nice to be able to wave a magic wand and take our troubles away and keep us from making mistakes. It won't happen so I guess that's why we are here.
Brw
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

brw - this has been a very interesting thread to read. I applaud you for coming here for help as you grapple with a difficult issue.<p>My wife is in a similar position. She had previously denied having to deal with any withdrawal, but D-day #2 proved otherwise. After seeing my devastated reaction to her contacting OM (and the very loving nature of their conversation), I think she finally understands (I hope and pray) how damaging it is to keep the OM in her life, OUR life, even as a friend. Heck, he was my friend, too, or so I thought. But I think it is impossible for us to truly move forward and begin healing our M if the OM is in the picture in any way. It just won't work.<p>I pray that you will heed the advice offered by so many here and understand just how painful continued contact is from your wife's perspective. She is fighting to hold her M together, and she is trying to love you and be a loyal and supportive wife, in spite of all that has happened. Showing her respect by completely avoiding the OW will go a long way in allowing the restoration of your M to begin in earnest.

Conquorer,
Whats sadder, is that you know nothing about me and the choices I've made...... If you really think about it, there were ways people delt with affairs way before MB came along and I can assure you it isn't the gospel either. Ironic how you discounted everthing esle I said about my surrender and it didn't take MB to come to that conclusion. What works for you and most folks may not work for everyone. Everybody learns at thier own pace and what may not be clear to them today maybe tomorrow or never. But, thats not for you to judge! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BRW,
Yes,even though we may not understand it all, just remember..... "you are right where your suppose to be". We all learn at a different paces. <p>Take care
MissJ

MissJasmine:<p>I'm sorry you've decided not to tell your H.<p>My W didn't tell me, either. I found out myself. But I found out AFTER her 2nd A with her OM.<p>If I had known at least after her 1st A, there wouldn't have been a second one. <p>I was robbed of my God-given right (and I'm an atheist) to choose what was right for me. Since HONESTY is my #1 EN, I'm having a tough time dealing with the fact that my W chose to lie to me every minute of every day for 11 years.<p>Sure, there are Cs and "methods" that recommend "measured honesty" (mine included - I stopped going to him yesterday partly for this reason), but I think they're wrong. Let me ask you this. Will you be able to live with your H for the rest of your life knowing that you're lying to him through omission all the time? I couldn't. Your poor H doesn't have enough information to be able to make important M decisions for himself, you've deprived him of that. What if he finds out about your A years down the line? <p>I'll go away now.

2long.....
I'm sorry your wife continued when she should have quite before it turned into a full blown A. 11 years? Second one? Whew!! Man, that would definately hurt. I know in my heart that I couldn't go to a full blown A... knew that from the start. There are many reasons for my position and yes, I do understand that my H may find out but if that ever happens I'll deal with that then. To me, and maybe no one else understands, but he dson't deserve to be hurt in this way. I'd rather leave before I tell him this. You may not understand this, but my marriage is even better now. This OM helped me in so many ways from what I seem to be running from. I realize now why he came into my life and why I am better for it. Let me just say this, if you ever had a first love in your life and have them reappear now after so many years to find that you still cared for each other you'd understand. But, I don't expect anyone to understand my circumstances. All I want to do is get past it, and yes I can go on with my life knowing that I didn't put my H through hell right now. For now, I am new and I don't see the reasoning why I should tell him. That could change but for now, I am learning and will definaetely keep it in mind. BTW I have cut off all contact with OM, don't believe we could be friends, plan to take my H to all gatherings if he's there and want to meet all my H's ENs......... Your W is definiately still in fog.. sorry hope she realizes she cannot have a frienship whatsoever and NO CONTACT either...<p>Hope you and your W are going strong!<p>MissJ<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: MissJasmine ]</p>

MissJ:<p>I'm glad to hear you're not completely closed to the idea of telling your H about the A. And in my W's case, it was not really any more "full blown" than a simple EA, because they didn't have sex more than a few times and it "wasn't fulfilling". I can believe this because we never stopped having sex ourselves, and it's always been very rewarding for both of us (when I didn't pout when turned down, that is).<p>This may sound strange, but I truly think you and your H would be better off if you DID leave him if you're not intending to tell him about your A, even if your M is going well. Our M was going better than ever in December and early January, before D-day, because my W really believes she had ended her A and so was devoting more of her attention to the M than she had in the previous 11 years. Then D-day came along and ruined her plan of not telling me for at least a year or so. She still has trouble understanding me when I tell her that I'm better off knowing than trying to live in "blissful ignorance", but I truly believe that I am. I won't live a lie for anyone, and this lie wasn't even something I had the opportunity to choose to reject. That simply is cruelly unfair. I'd rather have the truth, than have someone that's two mangos shy of a chutney (my W in her fog) deciding what "truths" I can handle in order to "protect" me. SC has noted many times on this board that the protection is only for the WS to perpetuate the selfish lies or even the A. Without the truth, my W stood a very good chance of having another A, even if she believes otherwise, because I would not have known about it (she got good at the deception) and so would not have been able to help her prevent it. <p>Sure, telling me would have run the risk of me wanting to end our M right there, but since I found out myself and DIDN'T end the M, I think we stood a very good chance of rebuilding at that point, IF my W had agreed to no contact right away. I would have loved to have had this opportunity 11 years ago, when the 1st A started, to work this hard at rebuilding our M. I had a lot more energy back then. As it is, the longer it takes to get to no contact, the harder it is going to be for my W to be trusted by me. And if it doesn't happen, I'll quit.

I had just crafted a very lengthy reply to several of you and I accidentally deleted it so I'm a little miffed right now. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]
Shattered,
It sounds like you have 'been there and back'. My W agreed heartily with much of what you said.<p>MissJasmine,
Yours was the longest part of my reply and I'm lost to re-create it. I wanted to say that I believe that you are right to say that 'we' can't ever fully comprehend another's situation. What bothers me is that all seem to have so many similarities.
You seem to be comfortable with where you are at this time and that's great and that's progress especially with the e-mail. I hope that if someday your H finds out about this that he will try to understand your thinking even if he doesn't agree.I can say that my W thinks that your view about your A and the OP resembles my thinking also. I wish that I had had the strength you had in not taking it further.<p>2long,
I agree with most of what you write and would support that thinking and I think most here would, also. Honesty is the foundation for all relationships but there is a time and place for it.I'm glad that you have identified your EN's and that your W try to meet them. Your situation and many like it were not helped by the lack of honesty. Yes, we all do have the right to the truth.
I suppose that I also "feel" for you in that you are an atheist because there are so many wonderful things in this world not to believe in some higher power. That, however, doesn't eliminate our human desire to question "why?". We are individuals so we also have the "right" to our own beliefs.
Brw
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Jasmine,<p>It's interesting that you accuse me of judging you when that is exactly what you're doing to your H. Were you appointed his guardian to decide what he can and cannot handle? Does he have the same rights you do or doesn't he?<p>I'm glad you have a plan and that you're following it, but this is the MB forum, and because we embrace the MB concepts and principles does not mean we're sitting in judgment on you or anyone else. It means that we have lived them and come to appreciate their value because we have seen the truths Dr. Harley speaks of with our own very own eyes.<p>Just like the saying in my signature line, you can either learn from the mistakes of others or you can choose to make them yourself. Personally, I come here to learn from the mistakes of others so I won't have to make them and suffer the consequences from them myself.<p>It is simply a fact, not a judgment, that you are the most dangerous person on earth to your H, as I am to mine. However, the difference is that my H and I know this about one another, and most important I know it about myself. What is the difference between your plan to avoid infidelity before your A and your plan to avoid infidelity after?<p>The most dangerous thought you could be having is feeling sure you'll never do it again simply on your own power. And since your H is not in on the plan, he is unable to address whatever was his contribution to your marital dissatisfaction, so you're eliminating that from your plan.<p>And every single time you take your H and force him to be in close proximity to the OM having no idea who the OM truly is, you are pulling his pants down in front of the OM and humiliating your H beyond belief. Please have true compassion on the man you married. I thank God my H at least protected me that much. Have you tried to think of it in reverse at all? Would you really want to be humiliated that way? Would you really prefer that? Empathy may be difficult, but it IS possible.<p>It doesn't matter to me what you do with your life and your H's life. I have no investment in judging you and no interest in doing that either. My only purpose in being here and posting here is to get help and to offer help, especially in the form of the MB concepts to help a M survive infidelity.<p>If you do not want intimacy in your M, then keeping something like this like a big invisible elephant between you and your H will be no problem for you, but maybe your H does want intimacy in M. Maybe that's why he married you. He's going to keep bumping into that elephant whether he can see it or not, and he's going to wonder why he can't feel close to you.<p>There's one thing for sure I've learned about M: My H cannot love me the way I need and want to be loved unless he KNOWS me, all of me. I want him to know everything about me and love me because of and in spite of it.<p>If you want that kind of love, too, please reconsider Dr. Harley's advice. You deserve it as much as I do, don't you think?<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror and 2long...
Your advice can be very damaging to someone who is just starting recovery. Especially if you know nothing of the situation.... sit back and read first before you speak such hurtful and damaging things...................!!!!!!!! Of course you can say whatever you want to me, but I feel for those who are new and looking for answers. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BRW, I wish you luck and can understand what your going through. What you have to do first is get honest with yourself first about where you are with things before you can move further. I wouldn't recommend my way to anyone but it works for me. One thing I can say about my strength is that I do care for OM to leave him alone from here on out. I will be thinking of you.<p>MissJ

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MissJasmine:
<strong>Conqueror and 2long...
Your advice can be very damaging to someone who is just starting recovery. Especially if you know nothing of the situation.... sit back and read first before you speak such hurtful and damaging things...................!!!!!!!! Of course you can say whatever you want to me, but I feel for those who are new and looking for answers. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The advice this website offers comes from the Harleys' experience with helping hundreds of thousands of couples. They have learned a lot about infidelity and what makes marriages work and what doesn't. Most of us are here because we know more about infidelity than we ever wanted to know. We know infidelity very intimately. Your situation is not unique. The most striking feature of infidelity is its common features across all lines--gender, socioeconomic, geographic, etc.<p>No one is trying to be hurtful. Most people here--me included, 2long included--are trying to help specifically with damage control. Those of us who are BSes are eager to learn everything we can about WSes in the hopes that we can understand our spouses. The fact that you are here in the Infidelity forum presumes that perhaps you want to learn how infidelity affects your M and how it affects the unsuspecting spouse--your H.<p>The very first step of recovery taught here is "Reveal information about the A to the BS". That is the very first step on the very first checklist in Dr. Harley's book, Surviving An Affair, and that checklist is at the end of the chapter titled, "How Should Affairs End?" and preceding the chapter titled, "Preparing for Marital Recovery". Marital recovery cannot take place without revealing what's happened to the M. <p>We are trying to help you by pointing out the things we've experienced and learned. We are trying to give your H a voice. We all wish someone like us had talked to our WS when our WS wouldn't give us a voice.<p>I've been reading here for 8 months. I've read a lot. I've actually learned some things because I came here specifically to learn all I could. The truth is not damaging. The truth is healing. We are speaking truth to you. Truth builds marriages. Deception destroys them. There's nothing personal in that targeted at you. It is just a plain and simple fact that applies to all of us, no matter what the specifics of our particular situation may be.<p>brw recognized that he needed to be honest and open and tell his W what happened at the mall, and we have all admired that demonstration of consideration for his W. I'm sure in spite of any pain his actions at the mall caused, the fact that he told her about it had a definite mitigating effect.<p>All we can do is sound the warning bells for you. It is up to you whether you heed them or not. Many WSes here were where you are and have shared their stories here. I hope you listen to them if you're too defensive to listen to us. We really are on your side. Why do you think we're not? What's in it for us other than exactly what I'm stating to you--that we're trying to help? We don't have any agenda other than that.<p>The bottom line is that this is the Marriage Builders website, and this forum's purpose is to answer questions and make comments and suggestions on the use of the MB concepts. The majority of the advice you receive here will be based upon those concepts.<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Ladies....let's try to temper your feelings. I've seen this happen before and I feel that writing without actually "hearing" another person say the words can sometimes alter the way we take them. MissJasmine, I don't think that Conqueror means to be judgemental but is just repeating what she has learned and her personal feelings.You and I are in the same boat or at least in the same ocean and our view is different than those on the other side. I see a much "softer" response from those who have been on "both" sides. That doesn't erase the terrible hurt that comes from being a BS. It doesn't make it any easier for a WS either.
Your statement about being "honest" with myself and where I want to go is exactly what my W has been looking for from me. I am trying to put all the info AND the feelings together to determine that. That is only fair to my W and to me. She wants a 100% commitment from me to work on the M. I understand. I also hear what you say about loving the OP enough to let them go. Letting go........... <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>Conqueror, You talk of the time proven aspects of truth, honesty and respect. I won't argue with that one second. I just think that each of us has to deal with our approach in our own way whether it ends up being right or wrong. There are many similarities in all these A's and as MB's shows, the way through it is pretty clear. My only thought here is......"Everything to it's own time and place.". The roads to where we want to go are different in length and direction but hopefully we get to the right place. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Bless you and those that are here,also. We are all in this together, unfortunately.
Brw

Conquorer,
For your kindhearted sake I won comment to Conquror I should know better anyway tha theres no talking to a BS who is hurt... I can understand that. I'm glad that you will work on being honest with you, thats where your healing will start. What works for me is looking at the EA from a global perspective in that what I did from the very beginning was wrong. Being in the fog, foregoes this principal no matter how close we were to the OM/OW. It hurt me at times that we couldn't be friends or I couldn't share a normal conversation with him. But after trying relentlessly to break things off I realize the feelings were too strong. Because of this, I realize for myself that the best thing to do is to work on why and how I got myself involved in the first place. My H has nothing to do with this at all, he is the most wonderful person.... I'm the one with the problem and to me (I don't advise anyone to do this) I have to get my ownself out. So, being that he was an old love of mine from many years ago... my "first love", reappearing in my life again, it was very hard to come to this conclusion that we simply cannot be friends or have any further contact because of our strong bond. I realize I have to treat him like I don't know him and that was hard to come to. But, for my familie's sake I must do this and I am willing to forego a friendship with this man, if that makes any sense. I struggle with it daily though, and believe it or not have thought about telling my H. But, thats for me to decide in my own time. I have thought of the consequences and its very difficult and could devestate my H and son. For this reason, I think it gives me strength to put the blinders on. Anyway, I could have so much more to share my thoughts and feelings with you but I still am in deep thought in my new recovery. Also, i don't want to influence you in anyway, as you and your W seem to have a plan that works for you. But, I can empathize with your feelings for OW as I have still, for OM.... some days its just plain hard but my H and son are worth it. Take care........... sorry to fuss on your thread, its not really my nature and I really do believe in live and let live. The MB principals are great and basically common sense to me... I don't agree with everything but thats the same way with my religion.............(LOL)... anyway, keep going strong with your W, she loves you very much to help you with this. I admire her deeply BRW you are a very lucky man! I will also pray for you. Will you pray for me? Thank you [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>MissJ<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: MissJasmine ]</p>

Missjasmine:<p>"I should know better anyway tha theres no talking to a BS who is hurt... I can understand that."<p>With all due respect (and believe me, you deserve respect) you don't understand. I never meant to be hurtful to you. I'm glad you're here. I wish my W was. (she's nearby, though).<p>There is definitely "talking to a BS who is hurt". Talking is the only thing that can help the hurt. It's that simple.<p>Honesty isn't just the best policy, there's no reason to have policies if it isn't number one.<p>Take care, and please don't think I intend harm by what I say here.

MissJasmine,
I am at a loss to say much in response to your post. I can tell it was from the heart and with a lot of thought behind it. Yes, I will pray for you as you might for me. Please include my W in that because she deserves it more than me. She would love to hear me say most of the words you said about the importance of your family in your decision. I am lucky and I do know that. My family is very important to me. My W and I are coming up on our 25th anniversary in 3 weeks. You have helped me whether you can see it or not. I admire your strength and resolve in spite of the pain. Your H is lucky,also. If you figure out the "why" and "what for" , you let me know.
Brw
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
PS to 2long,
Thanks for coming back to this post with your concern for someone else.