A little info so you don't have to research my old posts:<p>Me - BS - 29
H - WS - 31
His A - Oct 01 - Dec 01, EA until last 2 weeks, about 15 min of kissing and petting total (according to him), broke it off when she pushed for sex
OW - 40+ - coworker
D-Day - Christmas 2001
WH and OW still work together
They've discussed it 3 times since d-day, twice her apologizing right after he broke it off, and once 3 months later when OW wanted to know if I knew or not. OW still trying to come on to him, although getting more and more subtle about it as WH makes it more and more difficult for her. (I do believe he's exercising no contact as best he can while still working at the same establishment.)<p>
So here's my comment/question: Over the past 5 months, my mindset has moved from:
1) I have to win my H back
2) I have won my H back, now I have to do everything possible to please him, so he'll be happy with me
3) HE needs to make some changes, and I'll help him
4) He's made some changes but how long will they last (he's definitely made an effort)
5) Do I really want to put all of this time and energy into someone who'll probably screw up down the line and do it again?<p>I really don't like #5, but that is kind of where I am right now. Like I've fallen out of love with him, not because of the A, the A was a symptom of me not being as "in love" with him as before. Those emotions are just coming around again now. I stayed in the M before because he had done nothing amiss to justify me leaving. Now he has, and I don't have that reason to stay.<p>HELP! I don't want to do this to my kids or my extended family. I don't want to go through a divorce, but my feelings for him are nearing death. And now when I start having these thoughts, it is so easy to pull up those mental pictures of his A. Those pictures drive me even closer to D. Tell me this is normal, and how to get past it!!!<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: jamup ]</p>

Jamup hi,<p>It may be in your other posts which I haven't read, but from what you say here it seems as though you two do not communicate too well.<p>What you wrote seems very reasonable to me. Why not transpose those thoughts into a letter to him and ask him the same question.<p>If your husband is vunerable to being hit on he should learn about flirting techniques and specifically how to put off predatory ladies in the office.<p>Good luck<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</p>

I don't know from personal experience, but I imagine all of your emotions are normal! The question I want you to consider is: "Why did you marry him in the first place?" There must have been love, right? If so, I can't help but feel that there is some way to get back to that feeling of real love!! Of course, you've tried for the past five months, and there seems to be little progress, and I can't say that I would have tried that long.

Jamup<p>I can identify with the stages you have gone through. My H has gone through the same mind sets since out D-day. We have talked about them several times. He says the he does his best to work through them. Trying to push the "bad" thoughts out of his head. We talk a lot now.<p>You say your H has made an effort. I presume you mean an effort to change the things in him and your M that contributed to the A. If this is true, then what makes you think your H will "probably screw up down the line and do it again"? <p>Also, are you working on inproving you? Have you identified and began work on the things in you that contributed to the A? It takes two to make things go bad (though admittedly more weight goes to one side in this situation) and it takes two to put things back to good.<p>Regretting

"Do I really want to put all this time and energy into someone who'll probably screw up down the line and do it again?"<p>I can relate!<p>This is a NORMAL STAGE of recovery!! Hang in there. Your lesson currently... is to face these fears and to struggle with your impatience at the speed (or LACK of speed) of your OWN recovery! If you bail out of the relationship recovery at this stage, you will be avoiding the lessons you will benifit GREATLY from.(poor grammar, oh well)<p>One of the lessons I had to face during this recovery stage was MY FEAR of being EMOTIONALLY NAKED and truely intimate .... despite my fears of possible rejection or possible future hurts.<p>So ... my *Peppery* advice to you .... since you seem to be in real recovery as a couple is this:<p>Be as honest with your WH with your feelings and fears as YOU want HIM to be with you!!! This is how intimacy and love are restored ... he will experience YOU in your realness ... and then he will likely feel safer to open up to you in a real way too.<p>Try it .... you will surprise yourself!<p>Be brave ... have faith in yourself that you will be able to recover. It can't be hurried or rushed. Be kind and patient with yourself ... and with your WH.
Feelings follow actions.
Get naked!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

So you guys think it would be a good idea to express these thoughts to him? I don't want him to become emotionally stressed out to the point that HE doesn't care anymore. I'm sure he feels like he's putting his full effort into this, and I can't really argue with that opinion. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> it seems as though you two do not communicate too well. <hr></blockquote><p>Lack of communication has been a big problem for us, and it is one we are trying very hard to improve on. My major fault in communication - reading things into what he's saying. His major fault in communication - hearing but not listening. Is that a male/female difference?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Of course, you've tried for the past five months, and there seems to be little progress<hr></blockquote><p>The problem seems to be in defining progress. He is so confident and sure of my love in him and for him - Will it shatter his renewed pledge of undying love if I tell him I'm wavering? (does the fact I even asked that question tell you that I really do love him?)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> what makes you think your H will "probably screw up down the line and do it again"? <hr></blockquote><p>Good ol' lack of trust I guess. I was a desirable catch when he betrayed me the first time. I don't have much more to offer now. (just practicing the MB principles).

jamup -<p>As you may remember, as you have couseled me, I too struggle with this. It is as if now that the dust has settled we just don't have our heart in it anymore.<p>And after we "win" our husbands back we think "OK, do I really want this guy? Should I really settle for someone who would do this to me? Should I keep investing time and energy into such a fragile relationship? Don't I deserve better? Is this all there is, me working and working and still never knowing what I will find in his pants pockets or cell phone bill?"<p>Is this a normal part of recovery? Is this a normal stage? How does one push through it? Maybe you can't. Maybe you need to be honest with your husband and say that now YOU are having trouble committing to the relationship. That you acknowledge and appreciate his efforts but now you need him to be the strong one? You are right to be cautious regarding how you word this because he may hear "See, she doesn't really love me," just as mine does.<p>I know our situations are different but you are also struggling with continued contact. Is there any way that he can quit, be transferred, etc.?<p>Also, too you mention your family. Thinking about how they will be affected is an eye-opener. And let's say that you move on, divorce him and find that perfect second husband. Still, every marriage is vulnerable to affairs as we have painfully found out. You will always wonder about the new husband too. I once remarked to my H, "Is it your mission in life to ensure that I never trust a single human being on the planet again?" I'm not going to be feeling too secure with hubby #2 either.<p>You will have to work just as hard in that marriage plus deal with the exH, custody, etc. Then eventually your children will be spending weekends and summers with the OW or someone else that you may not approve of. These are all of the things that I think about when I am contemplating divorcing. You see, the WSs have put us in a terrible position regardless of which way we go. If we fight for our marriage and lose we will end up hurt again, very deeply. But if we divorce we have all of the ugly consequences and what is more, our children pay dearly.<p>I am thinking of you in your struggle.

Dear Jam ~~<p>It is worth it for you to face these fears and doubts in this current dilemma because any unfinished business, or fears left un explored, or lessons not completed ....will follow you to your next relationship if this one fails. So, you do this work FOR YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL GROWTH ... and, if your marriage improves because of your spiritual growth ... goodie ... if not ... goodie anyway! You win/win when you do the work for yourself.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

I don't know if it's a good idea or not to express those thoughts to him. I would not express any of the thoughts about not loving him anymore until you are 100 percent sure it is how you feel. I would be afraid of his response, because I know he is giving all he has to keep you as his wife, and if he feels that doesn't work, then he may just give up.<p>If you want your marriage to work, you're going to have to try to trust him. If, God forbid, he betrays you again, then you will know you gave it all you had, and you will know that you have to move on.

jamup<p>As a FWS, I appreciate my H telling me of thoughts like these when he has them. They make me sad but at least I know where he stands at that moment in time. <p>On the other side of things, my H also tell me when he is feeling good about us. Still, I know where he stands.<p>Communcation!! Key element! You have to talk with one another. Openly and honestly. That is one of many important lessons I have learned from this situation. Talk with you H.<p>Regretting

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As you may remember, as you have couseled me, I too struggle with this. It is as if now that the dust has settled we just don't have our heart in it anymore.<p>And after we "win" our husbands back we think "OK, do I really want this guy? Should I really settle for someone who would do this to me? Should I keep investing time and energy into such a fragile relationship? Don't I deserve better? Is this all there is, me working and working and still never knowing what I will find in his pants pockets or cell phone bill?"<p> <hr></blockquote><p>nursebetty, thanks so much for replying to my post, and I hope I've been an encouragement to you on your threads. You know how it is though, some days your the windshield, some days your the bug. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Fortunately I'm not searching his pants pockets or cell bills. Instead it's like I want to know every thought he's thinking so that if I don't approve of it I can nip it in the bud. So you can imagine why I'm so FRUSTRATED all of the time. I'm always looking for a hidden meaning, a distracted glance etc. as a sign that he's thinking about someone other than me. I do trust his ACTIONS right now. I guess that's a plus, but I don't trust his THOUGHTS and we all know that As start with a wayward THOUGHT!! See where I'm coming from? See to what great lengths I'm trying to go in order to protect myself from further hurt? See why I've adopted indifference as my only defense? <p>
And yes, the children keep me here, although he's far from a perfect father. He tries in that area too, but he didn't have a very good example. Besides, I'm not the greatest mother either (although my girls seem to think so). Believe me, my girls are the only thing keeping me here - going through this h*ll. If it weren't for them I would have walked out on Christmas night (d-day) and never looked back.

Jamup,<p>IMO, everything you're experiencing is predictable and is why Dr. Harley stresses NO CONTACT. As long as the predator and the danger is there, your fight-or-flight mechanism will stay at the forefront. Add to that any perception you have of lack of insight on your H's part as to the choices he made all along the road to infidelity (and therefore his ability to make different ones next time), and your own defense mechanisms are going to protect you because HE IS NOT PROTECTING YOU.<p>Since you cannot control him and his poor choice to remain in contact with the OW and you cannot control his lack of insight into the problem, the only thing about the situation you CAN control is you and your feelings. Your love cannot be betrayed if you don't have any love for him. It is the LB$ concept fully illustrated. He is making LB$ withdrawals and has been doing so from D-day on. He's not making enough deposits to compensate.<p>A book I'm reading (GREAT book BTW--Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay) uses the analogy of a tiger in the grass:<p>

• Stage 1: Reality. A tiger is creeping toward you through the grass. (Your H is in daily contact with the OW.)
• Stage 2: Perception. "A tiger is creeping toward me through the grass!" (You correctly perceive this as a danger to your M.)
• Stage 3: A feeling. "Yikes!" Fear of tiger. (You are appropriately feeling fearful and unsafe.)
• Stage 4: Action. You get your butt in gear and get the hell out of there. (You protect yourself from further injury at the hands of H and OW.)

<p>You get into trouble with feelings if you are not correctly perceiving reality, but in this case it is NOT a paper tiger in the grass. It is a REAL tiger, and your perception is correct. Your feelings are appropriate. Your defensive actions are appropriate.<p>I'm in the same boat, and it is only from the real POSSIBILITY of there being contact with the OW, so I have no problem with understanding where you are given the surety of contact in your case. I have been honest with my H, that because of his keeping that door to danger open, it has caused massive withdrawals from my LB$ and it is dangerously low. I told him it is just a FACT that I cannot remain in a M where I am unsafe and unprotected. Protecting myself will not work because that rules out intimacy, and if you can't have intimacy in M, then neither of us will feel cared for.