Okay. Just came from my IC session this morning. This is the "measured honesty" C. But to be fair to him, he was good with me in other areas, and he understood plan A and plan B pretty well when we talked about it this am. But I didn't schedule another session with him. I've still got my IC at work, though that's not supposed to be long-term or that in-depth. She's good, though, and asked me to come back for a 6th visit next week. <p>My reasons for stopping the other IC (for a while, at least) are based on a number of factors:
1) we don't agree on "measured honesty" (though he was willing to work with my desire for "radical honesty"). We also don't entirely agree on the no contact issue. He thinks I can start recovery before getting no contact, I don't think so (even though they don't see each other, just email, I feel like I'm putting up with a polygamist lifestyle in my house as long as we don't have a no contact agreement).
2) I think (and he agrees) that I'm doing a pretty good plan A now, and can only get better at it. And I convinced him that I'm not about to jump to plan B or D prematurely, either.
3) My W isn't "with the program" yet, don't know if she ever will be, so I find that we're not only not on the same page, we're not in the same book (and maybe not even on the same shelf... ...library... ).
4) I get good feedback from this forum, and I think between that, my other IC (assuming I can meet with her a few more times, probably can), and our MC (a few more times under our insurance, but I don't know how many), and HNHN, plus any additional books I pick up, I think I'm going to do okay.
5) I need to get some WORK done. With all these in number 4, PLUS the other IC, I was obsessing on our M problems too much and making not enough progress with it or my work. I'm going to dig in some more and put "no contact" aside for a while and see if my W will get there on her own.
6) I need to do more with my kids. My D will be graduating from college in 2 weeks, then is going to England for 6 months. My son is a freshman in highschool, and we're starting to do more together and he's got more new friends that come over after school.<p>My W is just going to have to be allowed to do her "day by day" thang. I'm not going to argue with her about contact anymore. I already have made it clear that I won't tolerate contact in the "long term" (starting 12 years ago would have been my 1st preference, NOW would be my second preference, and sometime before I go to plan B would be my 3rd preference - if "never," then I go to plan D). But I'm getting tired of the arguments (though thankfully, these haven't been heated arguments for over a month now).<p>I've also gotten good feedback lately about my plan A, and whether I should move to B or not. I'm not ready for B, and in fact I recognize now that I'm doing plan A well enough that it's by far the easiest thing to decide to continue for the time being (what with our house, family, and job situations all at once to consider). It won't be an "enabling" plan A by any means, and so I will have to remain vigilant so that I don't lose my love for my W before I realize what's happened, and can go to B if I need to before it's too late. I'm not going to use plan A to coerce her to do anything (I don't THINK I have for the past couple of months, but maybe I'm wrong?). I AM going to encourage her, indirectly perhaps, to do whatever she can to give me reasons to trust and respect her as a W (I don't at the moment, because she isn't giving me reasons to). I WON'T "sign up" to her "plan" to "take it a day at a time until our 30th anniversary, then decide to move on or renew our vows", because that's just too long (like, where did that timeframe come from, anyway?). I'll go with the day by day thang for a while, like maybe in 3 or 6-month stints, but true rebuilding needs to be every day hard work, not just "move with the flow" $hit anyway. 2.5 years is definitely too long (2long?). I'll be 51 then (that's almost dead! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>I'd sure like to get at the core problems in our M, but my W isn't "there" yet. She can't stop harping on what a selfish, uncaring [censored] (not her words) I was all these years, and can't seem to let go of OM. She thinks Cing is a waste of time and money (said so as recently as night before last - hm... I wonder what she'll think of my "savings" by suspending sessions with this IC?). And I can't move forward until we "process" her As and bury that elephant for good. I'll try not to harp on the no contact issue too much, because I've already made my boundaries there clear. <p>So, plan A, lovey-dovey stuff, and PATIENCE for another few months at least. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

2Long;<p>I think you're doing the right thing. It's a good plan, well thought through, and you can always adjust it as W's changes require.<p>You may want to try Steve Harley; maybe W will like him better? If so, he could be your joint MC. Or maybe just for you and adjusting the plan.<p>I'll be passing on the feedback from our sessions, so you may also be able to see how he could help you.

SC:<p>Thanks. I will consider S.H., but for now I'm pretty sure that my W won't be interested in a joint arrangement with him at that cost. YES, *I* know that it's a lot cheaper and the rewards better than DV, but since we're pretty much stalled in "pre-recovery" right now and my W is annoyed at distractions from her work, I think costly C'ing right now wouldn't be much use. I DO recognize the GOOD Cing, particularly from the "source" of the principles I've been using, would be a more efficient expenditure than "cheap" or free Cing by different Cs working with different methods and not communicating with one another. We still have our joint MC, my work IC, and my W's IC to work with for the time being, and that's not much of a drain, mostly a time drain (which bothers my W the most). <p>I'm doing okay, but I continue to be in something of a blue funk about us. So, before I go down the tubes (if I feel like I might), I'll probably call S.H. But I'd prefer to do that when it looks like my W might be receptive to the idea herself, if that ever happens.

SC:<p>I talked to my W on the phone after my last post. She was frantically trying to get problems solved at work, and wondered if I could postpone our MC session from next Tuesday to the following Tuesday. I told her I would try, but I thought they had May all booked up when we were there last week. I then told her about my decision to suspend my visits to my IC for a while so I could focus more on work. She got quiet for a second, and responded sounding like she was a bit concerned about what that might mean (considering I told her night before last that the Cing has been all that keeps me going).<p>Then I called Kaiser and they confirmed that May is booked. So I just cancelled our appointment for next week. And so the next one isn't until June 11th.<p>She has her IC on Monday, though. Hope she talks about something useful [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

2L;
It seems to me that once a month is too long between sessions, but of course, that's my opinion. I've tried to have at least weekkly sessions, and joint sessions twice a month at least.
Maybe you can try Steve and see how it goes.<p>I also think that anything that makes her stop and think is good; whether you intended it that way or not. Stopping to think is something they need to start doing more of. (That's the general theory behind "doing 180s", BTW; just any change from normal that will make them stop and think...wonder what's up)<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Hey SC: <p>Wow, an abbreviation for 2long that's shorter than my real name! Dawg! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yeah, a month apart would be too long. But even with the Kaiser appt being cancelled on Tuesday, she's got her IC on Monday, and I've got my IC at work Tuesday morning. If my IC at work will go for it, I'll try to meet with her every other week or so, but I'm betting she'll want me to taper off there. In that case, I will seriously consider calling S.H. <p>In other news, my SIL is having to move, because her rental house just sold. SO... my W wants US to buy a small house near us as a rental for her to live in. I dunno. I didn't buy myself a new car in January (or the whole time since) because I don't want to be stuck with a car payment if we separate, and I REALLY don't want two mortgages if I'm single!<p>But maybe this is a sign that she's really that serious about our M. I think in a way that it is, but I wonder if there's some underlying desire to keep OM as a friend, or bring him back as a friend after I've gotten comfy with our M being "back." In any case, I'm nervous about the prospects, and think I need to tell my W somehow without tweaking her gain knob.

2long,<p>I hope you don't mind me chiming in here, but please don't buy another house. Not only will you have two mortages, but your wife will have a convenient place to run to or (gasp) even liason. If her sister needs help...offer to help, which will be way cheaper in the long run.<p>The no contact thing is really hard. On the one hand, you can't build your marriage well with it going on....and on the other hand...you can't build your marriage well if you're fighting all of the time. I wouldn't drop it completely, but I would stop fighting about it. Maybe you can leave her a note of some kind once a week or every two weeks telling her you love her, and that you two could get much closer without this between you.<p>good luck

Star:<p>By all means, chime in!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>"I hope you don't mind me chiming in here, but please don't buy another house."<p>I really don't want to, but we have talked about buying a small house for a rental for a few years now. Something nearby our own house. This one's on the next street over, maybe 300 feet from our house. Payments would probably be only 6 or 700 bucks/month. We could easily rent it for more than a K.<p>"Not only will you have two mortages, but your wife will have a convenient place to run to or (gasp) even liason."<p>Fortunately, this isn't likely to be a problem. Even during her As, she and OM were so concerned about ANYBODY finding out, that they never met anywhere near each other's homes, and only a few times per year. Now, the big issue is getting her to agree to no contact, and she's almost there in a way. And the no contact is just going from email contact to no contact, because they haven't seen each other since November, and she hasn't called him on the phone but once in January (and I checked her cell phone from August last year through March this year). She had thought she ended her A with him in November, and is still learning that any kind of friendship will be considered by me as a continuation of the EA, so THAT's what we have to work on agreeing on (with "no contact, period" being the only reasonable choice). And she knows that I need it to stay M'd to her.<p>"If her sister needs help...offer to help, which will be way cheaper in the long run."<p>This sister is a piece of work herself. We've helped her before, and it only works when we expect nothing in return (because that's usually what we get). So,k though I like her as a SIL, I'm a little apprehensive about relying on her rent to pay the mortgage on this house. we can't, that's all.<p>"The no contact thing is really hard. On the one hand, you can't build your marriage well with it going on....and on the other hand...you can't build your marriage well if you're fighting all of the time. I wouldn't drop it completely, but I would stop fighting about it."<p>This is my plan, pretty much! I'[m waiting to see what happens with this report he's supposed to finish for her (many months late, now). I believe she'll really TRY to stay out of contact after that, but I have to see it before I'm comfy buying houses!<p>"Maybe you can leave her a note of some kind once a week or every two weeks telling her you love her, and that you two could get much closer without this between you."<p>I tell her I love her pretty often. Sometimes she'll even say she loves me too. We have great SF, too. At least, that wasn't one of OM's strong points (and since it was mainly an EA, they only had sex a handful of times). In fact... I probably shouldn't say this, but it got me all goosebumpy and we had a great time afterwards because of it: When I went up to where she was working to look over some of the sites she was superivising... well, on our way back (this was about 30 miles out of town in the Mojave) I had this urge to stop the car and make love to her right there. I didn't think she'd like the idea, so I didn't do anything. Well, when we got back to the hotel at about 4 in the afternoon, she said that she was thinking the same thing! SO, we flailed away at each other for a while, and had the most comfy nap afterwards... Needless to say, I'm not going to keep ideas like that to myself in the future! (and partly, because of my experiences since D-day making sure she's interested in SF before I get too involved, we've been talking more about what we like, so I know this approach would work). <p>Yes, I love my W very much. My main concerns are based on H&O being my most important EN, and so, even if she has this guy "out of her system", can I live with her knowing she lied to me for 12 years, even if we can rebuild our M closeness. I just don't know yet. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

"I'll be 51 then (that's almost dead [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )" ......<p>OK punk .... put up yer dukes! <p>Dead Pepper [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

2long,<p>I can see right now I'm going to have to go back and read some earlier posts to get your whole story.<p>You can move on to have a relationship with H and O, and I believe you can find peace with the past, but not until no contact really means no contact. I'm sure this is excruciating, but it sounds like you are doing the best you can under the circumstances.<p>Having good SF is a special bonus gift....it gives you a chance for bonding that a lot of people here don't have. I say make it as good and often as you can. It is a powerful tool. Maybe I'm different....but I would have loved it if my H pulled off the side of the road because he couldn't wait long enough to get to the motel. There is something so....lusty about that....and part of the A, while it may not have been sexual, is still about operating outside of the rules a little....so don't be afraid to offer that kind of excitement to your relationship. If she really doesn't want to, you can back off...but trust your instincts. <p>I still say don't buy that house. W will want to put SIL in it and then instead of making a few hundred dollars a month....you'll be paying an extra 700 dollars a month. If that's not a prob, and you feel generous....then fine....but look at the finances realistically...because sounds like more than likely you will be eating the cost of the house if S moves in.<p>Good Luck!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"I'll be 51 then (that's almost dead [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )" ......<p>OK punk .... put up yer dukes! <p>Dead Pepper [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I knew this crack would get you flamed! I was just waiting for it...LOL!

2L;<p>My personal opinion is that until you are pretty sure things are well "on the mend", it is probably not a good idea to make major life or financial decisions, like moving or a new house.<p>I'm personally not going to buy another house, or change this one, or any other major financial decision until I feel a lot more comfortable that the M is going to work out. Gets too complicated, and emotions are still running high. And I'm sorry to seem skeptical, but I would not take it as a sign of confidence in the M that your W wants to buy the rental. She wants to help her sister.

SC:<p>"I knew this crack would get you flamed! I was just waiting for it...LOL! "<p>hehehehe... You didn't see my joke over at http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=006691
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Folk units:<p>I'm going to have to have a talk with the spousal unit this weekend about that house. Even in good times, it's not a good idea to do her sister that kind of favor. When we bought our house 5 years ago, we hadn't sold our previous house, so we rented it to her and her then BF. They fell on hard times at one point and were unable to pay rent for the last month and a half. That put us into a REAL bind for months paying down the credit cards that got racked up because of the two mortgages and all the bills hitting us at once.<p>I hate it when that happens.

2L;<p>If the SIL can afford the rent, let her rent from someone else, not you.
Help her find a place, help her financially if you have to, but don't make yourself the landlord.

DAMNIT!!<p>On top of all the crap we're having to deal with, our house was broken into last night! Going to be a lousy friday, I'm afraid [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Ouch! Sorry to hear that 2L.