I know some of you have shared with this me before, but I'm nearing the end of my patience again. I guess I can only last 4 months before I'm overwhelmed with my need to see major progress.<p>I believe the A is over. I believe there has been no contact since January, when I attempted to go to Plan B. My H has made progress regarding some pre-A issues. Yet he is still very slippery about the A issues and seems to have no insight into how or why it happened.<p>We haven't discussed any of that in a long time (since January when I stopped asking questions because his lack of insight LBed me so badly), but various other things have revealed the continued lack of insight, as if he is in denial about what happened to us and the damage it did to me and the M.<p>In medical terms, I feel like the M has been on life support all this time, and I keep wondering when I should finally give up and pull the plug because the patient appears to be brain-dead.<p>I just don't do limbo very well. I keep thinking if this is as good as it gets, I want better. Sometimes I think I should talk to him, but then I have no idea how to describe to him what I need because he either has it or he doesn't. I'm doing better with addressing action-type things, like eliminating the OW's workplace (still not resolved BTW, he's still not cutting the cord), specific affection actions, explaining my limits regarding stuff on TV (nothing about adultery unless it's solution-oriented, like Dr. Phil).<p>But I don't know how to address a thought process he needs to exhibit in order for me to feel safe in the M. If he doesn't have remorse, he just doesn't have it. If he doesn't have sensitivity and awareness regarding how depiction of adultery affects me, he just doesn't. And I keep thinking back to when HE was a BS (in his previous M). He was VERY sensitive to and aware of BS issues back then. So it's not like he DOESN'T get it. I know that knowledge is there somewhere, but he's refusing to apply it to me.<p>IOW, I'm sure he feels as much a victim of his ex-W as he always has, but he doesn't acknowledge that I am HIS victim in the exact same way. In fact, during the last fight we had about it in January when I was asking him if he was willing to do the things I needed to recover from his A (the extraordinary precautions), he blasted me with, "Whatever makes you the victim!" as if in his mind I just manufactured my victim status out of thin air, as if nothing really happened to me that I might need his help with.<p>I know this is normal WS stuff for the most part, but this is someone who claims he loves me, is "in love" with me, and claims he is working on the M. Yet when I point out what I think of as very basic prerequisites for recovery, he still balks or acts deprived or in some other way acts as if there's something wrong with me for needing what I need.<p>He divorced his ex-W he found it so awful, yet he seems to expect me to just be happy he came back, as if because HE did it, it's somehow not the same thing as what his ex-W did and shouldn't have the same impact on a person.<p>I know I cannot live this way forever, so my question is how long do I try to live this way? When can you finally conclude he's never going to get it? The only thing I can think of is to figure out what the far end of the range is for those WSes who DO get it. I know what those WSes look and sound like because I've observed them in this forum, and my H's attitude is nothing like theirs. My ex-H has never gotten it to this day as far as I know, so I know that can happen, too.<p>I'd like to keep the window of opportunity open for a reasonable period of time, but at some point, I'll have to conclude it's never going to happen. I need help determining where that point might be. So far, I've been keeping 2 years in mind, but we've already used up 8 months of that with what seems to me to be very little progress as far as marital recovery goes.<p>The only thing I can think of to do that I haven't done yet is the story technique from Torn Asunder, where I write a story describing an A between his best friend and me in graphic detail and then read it to him.<p>Any other ideas?

I am struggling with the same thing so I am no help but wanted to let you know that I've been thinking of you. It astounds me that he doesn't get it even though he was a BS himself. Have you questioned him in detail about that? How did this make you feel, etc.?<p>They are strange creatures these WSs. I don't understand them. Also, do you think you are really in recovery (that is, has the clock really started ticking yet?) if there is still some contact, or did I not understand the workplace issue correctly?

Betty,<p>Contact before January is anybody's bet, but I'd bet on no contact since January. The workplace issue is because my H kept going back there recreationally after he was laid off. Since January he's been taking me with him, so I know there's been no contact while I've been there. I think she may not work those shifts, and maybe she doesn't even work there at all anymore, but even if that is the case, it is still the scene of the crime as far as I'm concerned and has no place in my M.<p>One of the primary reasons we married each other was because we were both the faithful spouse in our previous Ms. We talked for hours and hours about what being a BS felt like, in great detail, as all of us here talk about it. He described everything just like all the BSes here do. We both agreed that if we ever were interested in someone else during our M, we would just let the other know and not do the horrible backstabbing of an A because we both agreed that it was totally unnecessary, that we'd just let the other go if they wanted to be with someone else.<p>I have reminded him of his own descriptions of the feelings, quoting his own words, and he will just verbally acknowledge that he knows how painful it is, but it just doesn't seem to go any deeper than that, and it is always ME describing the feelings and then he'll finally kind of reluctantly and very quietly murmur an acquiescent remark. It just never seems to penetrate to his heart or soul the way I would expect it to affect me if I were in his place.<p>I don't consider us to be in recovery because he still is not following the extraordinary precautions and has not revealed all the information about the A by answering my notebook full of questions. I'm still in Plan A. But since the A is over, I don't know if Plan B would do much good. I'd have to go to court to get him out of the house. Just getting frustrated at the lack of progress. Keep thinking I'll find that magical point in time when I'll know it's never going to happen.

Conqueror & Nursebetty,<p>We are obviously married to the same man!<p>I don't know why they don't get it. Or do they get it and just refuse to acknowlege it because that would make us "right"? That we would then have some kind of power over them? I couldn't care less about being right, I just want to feel safe that he "gets it", and to know if he is willing to protect me from his weakness.<p>I have just begun to understand something very recently. My H has a large pile of resentments against me and our children. I know for myself that if I have a strong resentment toward someone it is difficult for me to feel like "taking care of them", or even feeling much love or compassion. If I happen to say or do something that hurts that person, it is difficult to feel remorse for my action, because I'm already holding something against that person. Does this make sense? <p>I am so focused on his A and wanting him to "get it", I am forgetting about the stuff that went on pre-A. I need to "get it" about some things he is hurt about pre-A. I do "get it", but maybe I haven't made it clear to him. If he thinks I don't "get it" then it is harder for him to even care about my pain.<p>This is why I think it is important to clear up the past, air our resentments, ALONG WITH bettering ourselves now. AND if they are in pain about something to not trivialize it just because we are focused on what they did to us.<p>Have either of you tried this?-----Imagine that you know for sure that your H will never get it. Because you know this for a fact you no longer have to think about hoping for it or trying to convince or teach them. It would be like having a paraplegic for an H, you KNOW he will never walk.<p>What does it feel like to imagine accepting this fact in your mind? I have to think about it, try it on for size. Can I live with it? Is the problem really that I am wasting time and energy wishing for something that obviously will never happen? <p>I DO NOT MEAN TO SOUND NEGATIVE OR HOPELESS. Just a differnt point of view, worst case scenario.<p>Replaced

Replaced,<p>I hear what you're saying about the pile of resentment the WS has, and I try to stay cognizant of those issues and am working very hard maintaining the changes I've made that address those issues. What's difficult for me is that *I* have tons of stuff, too, from before the A that he did to me that *I* still have resentment about, now ESPECIALLY because he went on to be even more horrible to me by having an A.<p>I recognize all that stuff on both sides, but then there's this huge pile of sh** (the A) all over and on top of the pre-A stuff, covering it completely. I feel that in order to do an adequate clean-up job on the pre-A stuff, we have to first clear off all that A sh**, so we can get down to that other stuff. I'm having a hard time staying motivated on the other stuff while I'm under all that A sh**.<p>Anyway, I don't think it would be fair to my H to stay in this M if he doesn't get it. If he doesn't get it, my feelings for him will just deteriorate more than they are now and he would be with someone who doesn't love him and probably never will. That would be very sad, more for him than for me. I've been living with feeling unloved for nearly the entire M. I'm used to it. He's not. I already feel sad for him that I doubt I'll ever feel for him what I once did, even if he does all the right things. Something died in me that I don't think will ever be resurrected. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /><p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror,<p>I hear ya loud and clear. The pre-A sh** does have to take a back seat until the A-sh** is cleaned up. <p>I've been thinking about my own resentments. For some reason I have very few. They are about his not "getting it" after all this time, his doing very little to help me heal, his annoyance when I want to ask questions, his inability to enthusiastically commit to rebuilding, Very little pre-A. On the pre-A stuff I just want to be able to talk openly and share with each other our thoughts and feelings. I want to experience the safety, warmth, and pleasure of giving each other comfort. (Getting to know each other)<p>Go look in the recovery forum at the post about "The Wall". At peace said it best, about killing the cans of worms that existed pre-A. But I do think the A worms have to be eliminated first. Are WE doing something wrong? Let me know if you come up with any new ideas. I cant remember, are you and your H in MC or IC? We are not.<p>Replaced

Conqueror,<p>Go see what Twyla just wrote in the recovery forum under "The Wall".<p>Replaced<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Replaced ]</p>

Conquerer,
There is a similar discussion going on in recovery.."the wall". Funny how so many of us are having similar feelings right now.<p>C, you are both so familiar with what it feels like to be the BS. Part of me wonders if he is SOOO horrified by what he did, he just plain and simple hasn't come to terms with it yet? It probably is something he never even imagined himself capable of...and in a way..he betrayed more than you..he betrayed himself.<p>I reached the point of no longer caring to delve into the A...It's like a cancer..the doc only has to tell you once..after that, you're way more interested in the cure. The question is...does recovery start with the surgery, first or last round of chemo, or radiation? See what I'm getting at here? <p>I don't know that there is a solid beginning or end of recovery. Death or divorce would probably be the clear-cut ending...but how do you define a good recovery..when both are at the exact same place? When both agree to follow some instructions in a book completely to the letter? Who judges? <p>I often wonder what my partner would say on this board..what his opinion of MY recovery would be..probably something along the lines of "Twyla can be so loving, but every now and then she climbs back into her shell and I have no idea how to reach her. Did I do something wrong? Why does she withdraw? I don't know what to do?" <p>C, I don't know how long the A went on, how many times they met, who did what or said what, what gifts were exchanged..to me..it's just no longer relevent. It's not going to fix anything. At this point..it's more morbid curiosity when it crosses my mind. If he were to come home tomorrow with a list and had documentation of every little thing..it would do nothing to aid our recovery. And I think you see that because what you're really looking for is the underlying causes...and some personal safety.<p>For the first 6 months of recovery I really bought into the unmet needs and personal LB's as being the cause..and I still think this has a lot of validity, especially for a life-lomg happy union. But after 6 months of meeting needs and practically being the MB poster couple, I needed more.<p>Like you I was looking for safety..maybe a guarantee of some sort. I remember good old SNL chiding me about my high expectations..the thing is, I never once wondered about his expectations or fears. Just figured I had to find out what was wrong with HIM, and understand HIM, and then it would all be fixed. I'd feel safe.<p>But it's more than that..I don't think I totally understood myself..still don't..but am working on it. I decided to make myself vunerable..let him into my fears. ( After all, how can I ask him to "let me in" if I don't extend the same invitation?). I wrote him a love letter and made it as honest and loving as I could..I opened my heart. I told him my fears..basic ones..That I wasn't pretty enough, that, as I'm aging I would no longer appeal to him, that this need for reassurance would eventually make him miserable. I would leave before I did that.<p>I told him why I valued his strengths and why his opinion of these fears and any ideas he had were valuable to me. And, I spoke of my love for him, past, present and what I hoped to offer in the future.<p>He didn't answer for a couple of days..scared me to death..practically had his bags packed...turned out he was rather afraid to see what I had to say. But then emailed me and asked that we talk of all these things when he gets home.<p>So, in one way nothing will really be solved until then, and even then it's just another start...but in another way, I feel 100% better. Probably because I felt I was heard.<p>And maybe this is at the root of the problem..we don't feel heard. We raise our voices saying the same thing over and over again..till we are screaming (sometimes in silence) and still aren't heard. Then, maybe it's time to whisper..lovingly, gently, truthfully.<p>We can't make them love us the way we want to be loved. Maybe we need to appreciate that they can love us the best they know how.<p>That doesn't really answer your question, though does it?<p>C, I feel for you. I think you did something similar to me..the betrayal of the first marriage made you even more wary...so you took every precaution when entering into this relationship..even choosing someone who had experienced the pain of betrayal. You counted on this to safeguard you. I chose this relationship after many years of solid respect and friendship..thinking the same..so when we found out we were wrong, it was almost doubly bad..because now we knew for sure there were absolutely no guarantees, and even taking every precaution we knew of didn't help. We still got hurt.<p>So, we have two choices..we can tell ourselves it must be a defect in them..or admit that maybe we have a few defects too..(and it's a heck of a lot easier to point the finger to them..but look..you still have three pointing back at you.)<p>But I think that maybe it's the sum total of the defects that is the real culprit. We can only fix ourselves. We can only express what we need and want and feel. We can't make them do anything about it..but we can offer to work together.<p>So, I haven't answered your questions at all and have realized what happens when I have too much caffeine..I talk entirely too much.
T<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Twyla ]</p>

ok guys, im gonna jump in here because i am in same boat, maybe not as much damage to my boat but i feel the same way.<p>what i dont understand is my husband will talk to me, i have asked, he has answered. do i believe i know all...no. but i know enough. i think i can put that behind me now. my problem is with the steps to recovery. i am doing it all alone. he wont do counseling, and he has my list of needs, yet he really isnt doing much to meet them. i believe he is being honest and open, when I initiate. he never starts a conversation unless its about how bad his work is and how stressed he is. he never askes anything more than how is your day. he also isnt really meeting the affection need either. he did good at mothers day, a beautiful ring, yet left everything else to the last minute. i actually got a joke card, it did make me smile, but i would really would have loved to have gotten a loving one. he just isnt putting us first. he never has, and im starting to believe he never will. bramblerose told me that i set up this situation by accepting this, she was right. my question is how do i change it. anything i do will be a selfish demand or something bad. i just know this isnt the life i want anymore-but how do i tell him??

Conqueror & all,
Your posts remind me so much of our failed 6 reconciliations. In #6, 18 mos after the PA had started and at that point had ended as the OW began dating H's housemate. I felt so wounded and second choice, and he was depressed and our being together was so empty. I no longer had any energy to Plan A. He had nothing. I remember going for a walk and thinking a warm body in bed was not enough, not a husband, not what I wanted, but all that I had (I was on a real downer, but was on anti-deps).<p>Then he left again. Which I took to be the end. <p>But, honestly I didn't know how I would have survived him being home much longer in that reconciliation.<p>I'm not an advocate of separation, I think it is awful. I have had as many abandonment issues as A issues. But what my H accomplished within himself, and what God accomplished when I was out of his way [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , a change of heart, a return to Christ, accountability, H's Plan A to me as I served the D papers and was moving on...is an absolute miracle.<p>I wouldn't want anyone to go through 7 separations, or really any other part of what went wrong between my H & me and, I don't even really know how it is possible, other than God, how we became how we are now--recover(ing)(ed) and positive about our future. <p>But, since I can't encourage anyone to follow in my footsteps, I do have one recommendation...get the book POWER OF A PRAYING WIFE by Stormie Omartian, and pray through it, I think there are 30 prayers, one a day for a month. My Walmart has it right now for about $7. Although the first prayer, praying for your H's wife (you) is a doozy and can easily take a couple days to process.<p>It's what kept me hanging on/focused in the 6th reconciliation.

Thank you all for your heartfelt responses. I really need it. I cried through most of what I was reading, especially what you wrote about your letter, Twyla. We all can identify with those feelings so well. I have written so many letters like that to him through the years. I have an entire file cabinet jam-packed with everything we've written to each other through the years.<p>The whole reason he was so important to me was BECAUSE he was the first man in my life I had EVER been emotionally naked for. I held absolutely nothing back, like I had for nearly 2 decades with my previous H. I knew I couldn't do it that way again because I knew the result of a H not feeling loved. I allowed this man into places of me that NO ONE has ever been. I even KNEW it might not be safe, but I did it anyway because I knew I couldn't have what I wanted without doing it.<p>Then so many things happened at once, plus he LBed me so bad throughout the M. I could never figure out why I wasn't special to him as he was to me. He now tells me he purposely held back the way I did in my first M. I hung in and hung in, hoping and praying it would get better. I would do everything I'm doing now--focus on what *I* was doing and how I could do things better.<p>At the end, it just got so I absolutely could not keep up with everything, and instead of helping me or being patient with me, he verbally bludgeoned me to death every single day. He humiliated me in public every chance he got. Most of the time I just wanted to die so I would not have to endure it anymore. I didn't believe in D except for adultery, so I felt very trapped. Once he even said he did it (the A) so I could be free of him because he was convinced I didn't love him and wanted out of the M, so he decided to be the bad guy so I could be free of him. I think that was mostly rationalizing, though.<p>But it is true, though I always had hope that somehow we would finally figure out how to connect to each other and make it stick. But I was pretty dead inside and now even more so. That is what makes me cry. What you wrote about the love you had for him in your letter, Twyla, made me realize I can't write anything like that because I don't love him. I just don't know how anymore. I can't find it anywhere. I've been trying all this time, and it's not there. I think if things stayed as they are now, I could probably hang on for my kids' sake, but how could that be fair to him?<p>The thing I hated most about all that time leading up to D-day was how awful it was to live with someone who hated me. I just don't think I can do that to someone. I feel like I did during my relationships between marriages. I knew I didn't love those guys and finally I just couldn't fake it anymore and I knew it wasn't fair to take what they were offering. I think part of me still hates my H, but mostly it's just that I can't feel that love and commitment that I used to. It all feels temporary, and I feel more and more that I'm fooling him and fooling myself.<p>The only thing I don't know is how I will feel if I see the stuff I see in the repentant WSes here. Will it come back then? The last time I thought my love for him had died was several years ago after some serious verbal abuse that even got a little physical with some shoving. I was so afraid that I locked up the guns, I thought he hated me that much. That was when I was grieving the death of my grandmother.<p>I don't remember how long we were alienated from each other, but what finally snapped him out of it was when he saw I had given up on God. He begged me not to turn from God because of what he did. He prayed with me. He prayed to God, pouring his heart out, begging Him to forgive him for what he did to me. I had never witnessed any man, even my dad, prostrate himself before God that way. That total submission to God melted my heart, and I was able to love him again, and I finally felt that he loved me.<p>So I know he is capable of that. I guess that's what I'm waiting for. But I don't know how long to wait. I'm very impatient. I know that. I'm trying to be transparent, but I haven't been able to straight out tell him I don't love him anymore. I'm trying to love him. I act-as-if all the time, but the feelings aren't following. Sometimes I wonder if I'll EVER be able to feel that way about ANYONE again. I just can't even imagine it right now. Like I said, I feel like that part of me died.<p>Didn't plan on writing this much. Should be working. I really need to re-read what you all wrote, plus the The Wall thread that Replaced recommended and do some processing. I have to go pick up my H in a few minutes, and I'm a mess. Once again, thank you all for sharing with me.<p>[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Well Conqueror, you've managed to catch me on an up day, so maybe I can be of some encouragement to you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>First things first. Can you understand how extremely painful it is going to be to him when he allows himself to realize the trauma, pain, h*ll, etc, he's put you through? Can you see how suicidal he'll probably feel, how worthless, how low-life, how unchristian, how much of a failure? My WH realized these things immediately, and went through all of these emotions, he cried, he vomited, he hit himself with a mag-lite, he contemplated suicide, he laid at my feet begging, squaling, he couldn't look me in the eye, the magnitude of what he had done broke his spirit. Do you realize how mature a person has to be, how truely sorry a person has to be, how sure that he made the right decision to end things a person has to be, how self-reflective a person has to be in order to face these emotions?
Do you also realize that the best way for a person to begin facing these is in a non threatening environment? When we try to force someone to face this, it backfires. Your own life experiences probably bear this out to you. You can't make someone be sorry. You can't make someone search their soul. I know you realize this, and that's what is testing your patience. You thought you married a mature individual who would realize the need of doing these painful things, be a man, and do them. Unfortunately, he's disappointed you. And all of this, not to mention the massive pain YOU'VE been through. And as a BS, I know how my OWN pain overrides and overwhelms me the majority of the time. I also know that you don't feel he deserves your patience in this matter. After all, he's the one that screwed up. Do you see that his inability, unwillingness, whatever, to search his soul are what is keeping him from his close walk with the Lord? Don't despair, if he's a Child of God, the Holy Spirit will continue to work on him, and work on him and work on him. God has a way of helping us search our souls. My best advice is to turn it over to Him. Pray for the Holy Spirit to work in your husband's heart. Pray for it constantly!! Tell your husband you are praying for him. Let him hear you pray for him - hold his hand and say a brief prayer such as "Lord, help ____ to be the H and father he needs to be, and help me to be the W and Mother that I need to be - in Your will Lord, Amen."<p>And remember dear, the Lord promises not to put more on us than we can bear. Sometimes the Lord allows us to be burdened to teach us to turn things over to Him. Give it to Him Conqueror. The Lord will not fail you. HE loves you. HE is going to help YOU become a better person, a better Christian through your trials if you will allow him to. <p>My prayers are with you. Hang in there.

Lor brings up an good point...leving him to himself to find the way out...and he may never...but it's something he has to do.<p>Conq, don't remember all of your story, but did you ever plan B, or seperate? You lovebank is so overdrawn right now..almost to the point of extinction... I wonder is a trial seperation/Plan B might be what you need for you...never mind if it makes changes in him..you're only holding on by a thread and it sounds as if it's beginning to unravel.<p>Would it be possible to tell him exactly what you told us. That as much as you have loved him and would like to keep loving him, right now you need to have some peace. I don't think I'd even go into expectations, or what he needs to do, or even what he did..make it completely about you and your feelings.<p>I know the last thing you need is another book...but I will recommend one to you.."The Betrayal Bond"...by Patrick Carnes...it's not so much about infidelity as it is about why people get into relationships..how trauma from any stage in our life..childhood- adult affects our decisions and indecisions. It might be a help to you to understand yourself, issues from past relationships that are still affecting this one.<p>I'll check back in this weekend for you.
T

Jamup,<p>Thank you. I fully understand what you're saying, which is why I've kept my mouth shut for 4 months. It is not an action that he can put into place. It is a heart change that I need to see evidence of in order to feel safe, and that follows its own timetable. My concern is that I will run out of gas before it ever happens. He has been so anti-God that I do not talk about spiritual matters at all. I want to stay completely out of God's way on that. I've felt led to stay silent on those issues.<p>Part of the problem is me, of course. I've kind of placed my and the children's lives on hold, waiting and hoping we all could start a new life together. I think I need to just focus on me and the kids for awhile and rebuild our lives.<p>For instance, I stopped going to church because our church was the one he grew up in and where all his family goes. Since he doesn't want anyone to know about his adultery, I can't find comfort there. But I should have just found another church and kept going. Part of the problem has been my work schedule, but if I really put forth the effort, I can manage to get us to church. I also postponed going to church because I was afraid it would be an LB to him, but the kids and I need it too much, so if it's an LB, it's an LB.<p>Anyway, that's the answer that's been coming to me since yesterday is to just go back to what I was doing pre-D-day: Focus on my R with God and rebuilding my life instead of obsessing about my M.<p>Twyla,<p>I attempted Plan B back in January and almost exactly as you described. I asked him if he was willing to do the things I needed him to do to facilitate recovery (the extraordinary precautions), and he started the usual excuses for why he can't or won't. So I told him that it had gotten to the point where I was having too much trouble functioning and I had to be able to do my job and take care of the kids and I couldn't keep my heart open and bleeding waiting for the things I needed from him in order for my heart to heal with him inside of it.<p>I told him my heart had to start healing, and if it couldn't heal with him inside of it, it would have to heal with him outside of it. I asked him to leave. He raged until I cried, then he took off, still yelling at me. I came back inside and started packing his stuff. Later on, I called him to check to see if I'd packed everything he was going to need for the immediate future, and he told me something he had done to mitigate one of the problems and ultimately he refused to move out. Once again I got sucked in by his promises to follow a recovery plan.<p>He doesn't want to separate because then he would have to explain to his family why. I'd have to file for separation and get a court order for him to vacate in order to get him out, so no simple separation is available for me. I have to start right away with a court battle, for which I currently don't have the energy. Maybe that's why I feel a need to reorient my focus on getting my life in order so I can rebuild my strength to be able to do that.<p>I'm starting to feel the attitude I had before D-day (when I didn't yet have confirmation of the A and didn't have the resources to get it)--that I'll just have to live my life the way I want to and trust that what I need will come along--at that time it was proof of the A; this time I'm not sure. Maybe that I'll fall in love with him again or go so far in the other direction that I'll have the strength and motivation to do what I have to do to separate.<p>What I was looking for was some kind of timetable to have in mind--that of all the WSes who "got it" the longest it took was _____________________. I like tables and formulas and probabilities. I tend to think mathematically. Plus, I'm aging every minute of this process. What I regret most about my divorce was that I didn't do it sooner.<p>I keep having fantasies about what I should have done differently this time around, and it's stuff like if only I had gone to the doctor back in June, I would have found out about the STD and had my proof, and I'd be divorced by now. I'd be through the worst of it instead of being in the middle of it. Or even that that course of action might have snapped him out of it better, and he might have truly worked on recovery. Or even if he didn't right away, maybe by now he'd be out of it and know he wanted the M back, and I'd be in better shape to try recovery myself because I wouldn't be all used up like I am now.<p>I know there's nothing I can do to change the past, but for some reason I keep having these if-only fantasies, and they're not about if only I had done this or that, he might not have had the A. Instead, they're about if only I had divorced him before I knew all this other stuff and felt obligated to give him another chance. I assume this must be an indicator of something, or is it just a stage everyone goes through?<p>I probably would benefit from that book, and I'll put it on my need-to-read list. I most definitely have very deep-seated abandonment issues. I am the third generation of children of divorce, with my parents' D occurring when I was preschool age. And one of my biggest problems in sorting things out is my aversion to passing this legacy on to yet another set of children. Including the children from my first M, I've witnessed the effects on 4 generations, and it is devastating.<p>[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

By the way Conqueror, how did your hubby's wife behave when he found out about her infidelity? Was she remorseful? Is he basing his actions on the way hers were? Just a thought. Maybe he thinks the way he's handling things is the way he should handle things. I know it seems like I've been sticking up for him, and that's not what I'm trying to do. But maybe sitting here at my computer, instead of facing him everyday like you do, allows me to look at your situation more objectively. <p>How long should you wait? Bless your heart dear, I don't have a clue. I'm like you though, we picked a husband we thought we could trust from the onset. That was our "infidelity plan." Pick someone who was upstanding, who knew infidelity was wrong, who had strong character, etc. We thought we were planning, and we thought our plan would work. Well we were wrong. So do we give up on this man we fell in love with in order to go find another man and repeat the process all over again? How many times do we start over with the thought of "getting it right this time?" Would we ever "get it right?" Or would we just hurt deeper each time our plan failed? I know your hurt is double deep than mine because you've been through it twice. Don't set yourself up for the third time. Fight it. Develop yourself to become so good at filling emotional needs, that your man is never lacking. My H has been very content since I've been practicing what I've learned here. Oh, we still argue etc. at times, but I can see the contentment in his demeanor, in his eyes. He's not going anywhere - at least for now, and it is up to me to keep him content like that. No one else has the power to do that.<p>And when I feel neglected, I talk to him about it. I'm beginning to see that I feel neglected when we haven't had an opportunity to connect in a few days. So I'm going to take steps to give us this opportunity more regularly. If it means dropping the kids off at his mother's right at the time he gets off of work so that we can have quiet time, then so be it. I don't believe I'm neglecting my kids if I have to be apart from them in order to keep my marriage together. Schedule some quality time. Whisk him away somewhere for the night and spend some time with him without the kids or the TV. Hold hands - every man likes to be romanced, so even if he's reluctant at first, keep your sweet demeanor, your "suggestive" demeanor, your best "I'm on a date with the man of my dreams" demeanor. See if it helps meet a need that YOU are missing!!!

(((C)))<p>I hope you don't mind ... what do you do for a living?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
<strong>By the way Conqueror, how did your hubby's wife behave when he found out about her infidelity? Was she remorseful? Is he basing his actions on the way hers were? Just a thought. Maybe he thinks the way he's handling things is the way he should handle things. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Jamup,<p>My impression from what he's told me is that she was the typical fogged-in WS--"What's the big deal?" He didn't hang around long enough to experience it as long as I have, so I don't think he'd use her as an example since what she did repulsed him.<p>Your post had a lot of insight, and you are definitely right about our similar plans. I have had the same thought process, that there are no guarantees with him or with anyone, which I find very depressing because it means I will likely never have in my life what I always wanted. Nothing I can do but try to accept that. Even if I managed to get with a true love who miraculously was faithful, I'd have the fallout from this M and its effects on my children tainting it anyway. I'm obviously not one of the chosen few in regard to true love.<p>All of your suggestions are great, but I'm so burned out, I think I need to recharge my batteries before I can launch into that kind of stuff without having the feelings to back it up. Most of the time I feel like a little kid pretending and playing house. I go through the motions, but I know it's not real.<p>Don't mean to sound like such a downer. I actually am starting to get some energy since I've been focusing on trying to get myself together and delaying thinking about the M. I have some good stuff from a book I'm reading that's appropriate to this thread's timetable question. When I have time, I'll share it with everyone.<p>Pepper,<p>Email me and I'll tell you. Don't want to identify myself too specifically lest the enemy is lurking. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Conquerer,<p>I've been away from these boards a few days & read this whole post. With a few execptions, I could have written the words. I too am burned out & not sure what to do at this point. Sorry this isn't much help, but wanted you to know that you are in my prayers.<p>There was a post from an oldtimer (can't remeber who) who talked about periods of time where he just couldn't do anything so he didn't. Maybe we just need plataues (sp?) now and then. <p>The answers will come through prayer (I know that) in God's time. What's frustrating (when I let it) is that His time & His ways are not my ways.<p>God Bless,<p>D.

It feels like for fruitin' ever!