WH had EA/PA in Jan, No contact since Feb. H & OW met for lunch, kissed after lunch, exchanged emails and phone calls. H says never went any further. <p>He now says he did not think his "friendship" with the OW would damage our M. He couldn't see that it was wrong but, felt guilty about the lunches the next day.
He still says it was just a friendship even though they would kiss after meeting for lunch. OW told him she loved him but, he says he did not feel the same way. <p>Has anyone else run into this? Is this the fog that a WS is in during the A?

A resounding YES!!!! IT'S THE FOG DOING THE TALKING AND THINKING FOR THEM!!!!!!!!!<p>Question: Has your H learned from his experience that what he did, DID hurt his marriage? Mine did. But by then the damage was done.<p>Have you ever met someone who never learned from the life experiences and mistakes of OTHERS? You know - those people that would be able to handle every situation perfectly if THEY were in the other persons' shoes? Like - Ol' Joe has an A with his secretary - If it was THEM, THEY would be able to be "just friends" with the secretary and it would NEVER, EVER escalate beyond that!! (yeah right [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) And then low and behold, they wake up one day, and they are in the exact situation as Ol' Joe, if not worse!! So much for their self-righteousness!! Well it sounds like your H and my H may be brothers!<p>Of course my H admits that in his fog, he had put me and the marriage so far to the back of his mind, that he didn't really give it much thought. He was so caught up and captivated by the OW, that she engulfed him. My hope and prayer - for both of us and our Hs, is that they have learned from this experience. That they will see trouble coming and dodge it next time. I seriously believe that my H did not see the trouble coming until he was so caught up in the fog that he didn't know how to get out, and wasn't sure he wanted to. He was torn between what felt good, and what was right. And in a foggy state, it was hard to see clearly to make wise choices.<p>My H has decided (shortly after D-day) that he no longer needs ANY female friends. He no longer needs to be in the company of only a female. No he's not a Don Juan - quite the opposite, he thinks he's unattractive and so he lets these women see how nice and sweet he is by allowing them to get to know him - and guess what - they decide they want him, come after him, and then he's shocked (and flattered) when he starts being chased. So he can't afford the risk anymore.<p>OK, I've gone on enough. But yes, I've experienced what you are talking about.<p>As a matter of fact, I think it's quite common for people to think that EAs are not As at all. That everything will be just dandy as long as they don't have SEX with the OP. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

I appears to me that he is just trying to dodge the responsibility of the A. Why would he feel guilty afterwards if he didn't think it was wrong, or had the potential of hurting the you or the M? A friendship between a man and woman doesn't including kissing and frequent private lunches.<p>If you 2 are in recovery, is there any way that you can talk about this without a bunch of LB-ing? Would a counselor help at all? If you can express how you feel calmly and rationally, then maybe he will finally see the severity of what he has done. Sounds like this is an issue that needs to be dealt with in order for you to move on.<p>I'm in a reverse situation myself. WS and OM's A is over, but WS insists that they can remain friends and I should be ok with it. Sorry, wrong answer, its either no more contact with OM, or no more me. Plain and simple.

Whoa. Yeah, I'd say that sounds pretty foggy to me. <p>Any sane person could see that "hanging out" with the OP for ANY reason is pouring salt on the wound of the affair in a major way. My understanding of "fog" is "bending (or just throwing away) logic in order to justify behavior." Not lying, but actually being so self-deluded that they BELIEVE it. <p>During the A, both my FWH and the OW were totally convinced their relationship had NOTHING to do with our deteriorating marriage. It was just a mere coincidence that he started feeling unbearably uncomfortable in my presence AFTER he started having a sexual relationship with his "co-worker/friend." <p>If he's waiting till your marriage gets better so he no longer "needs" her friendship, he's in for a long wait, because your recovery can't even really begin till there's NO CONTACT. It's backward logic.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kat1972:
<strong><p>During the A, both my FWH and the OW were totally convinced their relationship had NOTHING to do with our deteriorating marriage. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yeah....<p>I love it when they say this isn't about anyone else it's about US and ourrealtionship. He/She has nothing to do with hit.<p>HELLLOOOOOOOOO????? <p>What the heck is the color of the sky in their world???? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So yeah...lots of us here have heard the same cockamamie logic---problem is there's no logic to it... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>E

jamup<p>My H says he has learned from this mistake and it will never happen again. He says he knows what the signs are now. <p>He is like your H - no more female friends EVER. Which he had a few he would keep in contact with, lunch, phone, emails (I knew about those lunches)<p>This one was a secret friend and the one he kissed. She was pretty relentless with the pursute, wouldn't let a day go by without some sort of contact. Sometimes 2 and 3 emails a day followed up with a phone call and visa versa. <p>Same thing - it was the flattery, the attention, that someone wanted to talk to him and to see him. Got in over his head and could not get out. He know realizes that she wanted more than just a friendship and a kiss once a week. <p>We are moving into recovery pretty well. I still have alot of trouble with the hurt. Lots of talking, yelling, crying. We have been together for 20 years so, I am willing to give it some time and see what happens.

Thanks Everyone. Was curious if this was somewhat of a normal response. <p>He knows just how bad this was. That he may have damaged our M beyond repair. We are going to MC, reading tons and talking (sometimes yelling)all the time. Trying to "fix" the reasons he needed a "friend".

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She was pretty relentless with the pursute, wouldn't let a day go by without some sort of contact. <hr></blockquote><p>OK, our husbands are brothers, and their OW are sisters!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds just like my OW!!! Something else our WHs have in common, my WH did not have sex with the OW either - unlike most WHs. They did engage in some petting along with the kissing. She's a co-worker - still is - and all their A occurred on the job. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] He didn't think being friends with co-workers would be a problem. Everyone ought to be able to be friends with everyone else they work with - his old motto!! Well, that motto has changed as I mentioned earlier. No more female friends, and since there is only one other female at his place of work, this should be very do-able for him.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> He says he knows what the signs are now.
<hr></blockquote><p>My H agrees with this comment too. And if he ever forgets, I'm here to remind him!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I, too, know what the signs are now. Hopefully I'll care more and pay attention to the signs more should there be a problem in the future. Our marriage was at the point where I couldn't care less how he felt, what he was thinking, etc. I keep that in mind when I get discouraged about the possibility of him doing it again. If we don't allow our marriage to get that low, then his chances of successfully avoiding As will be 100% better!!<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: jamup ]</p>

jamup - <p>This is getting spooky. OW was a HS friend that found my H via on those HS friends sites. s.com. She wrote to him, which means she had to look for him because they were not in the same HS class. He never told me he got an email from her, said he was afraid to say that someone contacted him. (Still trying to figure this one out - H had alot of other problems he is trying to sort out. Depression, Lonliness, etc.)<p>He asked her to lunch, again because they were old friends. She took him up and they met for lunch, nothing happened just lunch. A week later, she wrote again. She said she liked seeing him that she would like to do lunch again. He again thought they were just old friends catching up, so he went. Then he got an email, a few weeks later, that she had a babysitter and would like to meet again. Gave him her phone number so he could call.(Huge Red Flag). He gave her his number, that friend thing again and they met for lunch. This time after lunch she hugged him, then kissed him. He tried to break off the friendship because of the kiss but, she would email and call several times a day until he saw her again. You can probably know the rest. Then it was email and calling because they liked to talk. <p>We were distant, going through the motions of M and he had some other issues that he never told me about. We are working on those issues plus some personal ones he needs to work on that I can't help with.
He has cut off contact will all of his female friends, changed his work phone number, email address and took himself off the HS friend site. Some big steps in showing that he wants US to work things out. So, we have a rough road ahead of us but, I sure hope we can survive this. <p>Thanks for chatting with me. I wish you all the best and lots of happiness.

Since you gave me the run down on your Hs A, I'll give you the run down on mine (have to get it out of my system every now and then [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>She's the only woman out with the men on the job. The other female works in the office. She has to be the center of attention. Flirty, loud, teasing, pleasing, whatever it takes to be the center of attention. My H is a desirable catch. He's 13 yrs. younger than her, good looking, not a player - in other words, she knew he wasn't going to try to hurt her or use her etc.<p>Starts with her lavishing him (and others) with female attention - always alluding to sexual things, always directing conversations to sexual topics. After a few months of this, my H is really eating out of her hand, but no lines have been crossed etc. "She's just so likeable." [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Then she makes the comment that she would have loved the opportunity to date him. (Yeah right, when she was a senior he was in kindergarten!!) To which he replied that if neither of them were married he would have probably liked dating her too. OK, first line crossed - but he didn't even realize it.<p>Then she began to devote more of her attention to him, although she fed the crowd along too. She saw an opening in his demeanor, a possibility. She tries to get him to talk about our problems, although he says she wasn't real successful with this as he only had one gripe with me (which he did share with her, and of course she said I was so thoughtless and that she would never do that to him as he didn't deserve it [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) She began flattering him, and leading him to flatter her. Comments like, I just don't feel sexy anymore, I think I'm losing my sex appeal. Am I? DUUHH, Typical male response - "No, you've still got appeal." [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, then (about 5 mo into her working there) our marriage really hits the rocks, we also start having major problems at church. The preacher doesn't even want to talk to him for no reason, and the preacher hates my guts for even less reasons, therefore, our spiritual leader has turned against both of us - a very trying time!! So WH turns to her. He crosses another line - he touches her in a flirty way. And she responds. This goes on for 6 weeks, she tries to kiss him, he pulls away. So a week later (after continuing the flirting, flattering etc) she gets him to kiss her on the belly - just coylly asks, "you know what would really turn me on? For you to kiss me right here." Barely lifts her shirt, gets in front of him (he's sitting). So he kisses it. (just a peck, and I believe him).<p>Well then she knows she's got him. So she keeps flirting and about a week later while they are riding together, they are doing their "sex talk", she's openly lusting after him, and she says she wants to steal a kiss, he says - Um I don't know about that. But she scoots over by him and kisses him (her way of being the "bad guy", let him be the poor innocent victim so that she can get him to go further). Another kissing incident follows shortly which he breaks off when she heads toward his crotch. She's already told him she wants to sit on his lap and have sex, and that "I promise it will be good."<p>Things at home continue to worsen, but I'm so caught up in this church mess that I think the church problems are what is bothering him too, and I don't bother to ask. To his credit, he did try to talk to me about our marriage at one point to which I promptly replied that I'd had a rough day and we'd talk about it later. (Boy have we ever talked about it later!!!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>A week later, the second round of kissing and petting commences. This time she doesn't go for his crotch as she knows he might back off if she does. (smart ol' bird, ain't she!!) She tries 3 things to get him to committ to sex - (and remember she's already promised it would be good) She asks him to stay late, so they can do their kissing in private(without the chance of someone walking in) and let it lead where it may. Then when he says - no, she tries daring him - I'll bet you wouldn't have sex here in the lunch room would you? To which she gets a negative response too. Then she goes for the jugular. - Remember that one problem he discussed with her about our marriage - well the problem was that he didn't feel wanted at home - so she says, "Why don't you leave jamup and move in with me. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] " (she's married to a man that makes 3 times as much money as H, no where near a D, if H moves in, one or both of them will lose their jobs, etc. believe me, this was just a line to try to give him what he was missing in our M, "feeling wanted.")<p>Guess what!?! That backfired on her. He suddenly realized what he was risking. (He's thinking she's serious about moving in - fog thinking). He suddenly has the shades opened and sees he is at a crossroad, a life with her, or with me. Besides lust, there is nothing there between them. He said he knew right then and there that he didn't love her. What they were doing wasn't about love, it was about lust. And her trying everyway she can think of to get him to have sex with her. (of course I know what works with him, but I'm not going to tell her!!! I learned a long time ago that none of her techniques worked with him!!! But she was sure trying!) <p>I guess that about wraps it up. He broke it off. Came home. Began acting suspiciously sorry about doing something (to which I couldn't put my finger on anything he'd done wrong.) So I started asking questions - and the truth poured out. So did he think his A would hurt our marriage? I think to some degree he knew it would, but he was so caught up in having her meet his ENs for attention, affection, etc. that he wasn't thinking of anyone but himself. When the fog cleared, HUGE REALITY CHECK came in, and he realized the MAGNITUDE of what he had done.<p>Of course truth be know, The A has "helped" our marriage in numerous ways too. I guess it's all in how you look at it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]