Many times as a BS goes thru the trials forced upon them by an affair, they ask the question "Why?". It's a very important question to have answered for two reasons, 1) a BS needs to know that they aren't at fault for the affair; and, 2) until you know the causes you cannot take definitive preventative action to forestall a repeat performance.<p>The first reason above cannot really be accomplished by knowing "why". There is never any case, never any marriage where the BS is in any way responsible for the affair. No one can have an affair without making conscious and deliberate choices. No one makes another betray.<p>When we know the root causes(or why?) we then have the tools necessary to evaluate the marriage and take the steps necessary to avoid similar pain in the future. In many cases this means taking steps to improve the relationship and become better partners. In other cases, the only real solution is for the marriage to be terminated and the ex-partners move on. Either way, the BS does the most possible to avoid future betrayals.<p>One problen in answering the "why" question is that it becomes "all-consuming". It is a quest, like the search for the Holy Grail and we must have an answer. Sadly, in lots of cases, any reasonable-sounding answer will do. We just need closure on this facet of the betrayal.<p>The strength of the desire to find a "because" often drives the BS to diagnose a mental illness or slap some other kind of label onto the WS. It is often un-thinkable that our S would do something to us this horrible. Therefore, they can't really be responsible. This last statement is just comforting claptrap in the vast majority of cases. Read again what I said above, conscious and deliberate choices.<p>We are assisted in the "diagnosing" of our WSs by well-meaning, but misguided professionals, "diagnose-it-yourself" books and web sites, and loving, caring, but equally misguided friends and relatives. When we do this, many times we are doing a disservice to those who truly suffer from the various maladies and addictions that we use to justify affairs. I recently discussed this with my therapist who agreed with my assessment.<p>Many of us here overuse the terms "addict", "addiction" and "xyz disorder". These are medical terms, describing medical conditions and should not be applied lightly. But, we too often do.<p>I've seen BS discuss the multiple affairs conducted by their WS and simply because of the fact there were multiple affairs, the general conclusion is reached by posters here that the WS suffers from "sexual addiction". I remember one male WS who liked to go out drinking every week or two on one weekend night. He tended to get pretty wasted by the time he would return home. The BS discussed how this was disrespectful to her and was an activity she didn't approve of. It was then decided that the man was an "alcoholic".<p>Often on this board you will see the labels "bi-polar", "OCD", "ADD", etc., applied to a WS. Sometimes, but not often, these are legitimate diagnoses from qualified professionals. More often, however, it's the case that someone, either the BS or a friend/family member, or a well-meaning poster on this board, provides the diagnosis either from similar behavior experienced previously, or matching up aberrant behaviors with a checklist from a web site or book/magazine. If you examine the fine print that goes along with those checklists, you will find that matching even every single line item only means that the described malady is something that should be considered, not that it's a definite diagnosis. Even a physician cannot make valid diagnosis from someone's posting on an MB board.<p>We are currently in a society that says we don't have to take responsibility for our actions. For whatever we do wrong, there must be some kind of neurosis, psychosis, discrimination, abuse or group dynamic that forces us to behave inappropriately. As an entire society we have adopted Geraldine's(Flip Wilson character) excuse, "The devil made me do it".<p>Assigning the label is comforting because it means our quest is at an end, we know "why" all this happened. The BS now can reside within somewhat of a "comfort zone" because the behavior has an explanation. This is unfortunate because very often the diagnosis is wrong and the BS is lulled into a false sense of comfort. We took the easy way out. Then when the WS betrays a second time or continues to treat the BS with disrespect and disdain, the BS is devastated. The cycle of pain starts again, as does the quest for "why".<p>Something else we as BS do when we "discover" these unfortunate diagnoses, is to share them as soon as possible with the WS. After all, isn't the WS going to be thrilled that they've been diagnosed and understood and all they have to do is pop a couple of purple pills to make everything OK? How much help is it when you are off having a good time, maybe what you consider to be the time of your life and someone tells you that the only reason you are doing this is because you are "sick"? <p>I could go on forever about this, but I just want the message out that we need to concentrate less on finding some kind of medical reason for infidelity and just accept the fact(in most cases) that a WS made some very bad and unfortunate choices and just leave it at that. Spend the time looking at yourself and your contributions to the marriage and less time on trying to "diagnose" your partner. You are more apt to come out of this trial with a whole skin when you make yourself and your behavior the focus rather than the WS.

Good thoughts. Timeless. Somebody should stick this on the bottom of their post with WAT's guidelines.<p>I was lucky enough to get a true medical diagnosis. His doctor said he was a jerk.<p>E

I do agree that there is an overdiagnosis that goes on that are not made by professionals. Perhaps those opinions by others can help a spuse has the person seen professionally to determine if this opinion may be correct.<p>In the case of my H, he has been diagnosed. I don't agree that it brings comfort, at least not to me. My H has had formal diagnoses for his problems made by competent professionals and has been treated for them. Unfortunately, popping a few pills won't "cure" him. He is working hard and will have to for the rest of his life. A medical/mental disorder diagnosis is in no way a comfort to me because I have to realize that because he now has this "disorder", then his problem is more severe that the general cheater and therefore that it is more likely to happen again if he slacks off on his recovery. No comfort there, rather a great fear concerning the future for me. <p>Even with this diagnosis, I have decided that I will not live through this again if it should happen. Yes, he has a mental condition, but now he has been treated and knows what he has to do to stay "well". He is not responsible for his disease, but he is responsible for his recovery.<p>Your general cheater who is unfaithful due to other reasons that are not medical/mental I believe has a greater chance of not cheating again than my H. I'd rather have that possibility. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] C

Justthewife:<p>LOL I agree with you, and... my husband was diagnosed as an a**hole and a stupid jerk.
I wish they made prescriptions for those!

Heartpain, <p>Thanks for this post. I agree wholeheartedly. I do believe that the BS often doesn't want to accept the reality of who their spouse is, because to do so means that their own hopes, dreams and plans go down the tubes as a result.<p>There's also a bit of disbelief - how could I, why do I, I couldn't possibly love someone with a character like that!<p>I think that alot of these diagnosis often come perilously close to disrespectful judgements AND often allow the BS to neglect their OWN behavior, and allow the BS to ignore their spouse's often very legitimate and very REAL emotions.

Elizabeth - The only one who consistently cracked me up more than you do was Medic.. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I laugh a guilty laugh every time I see you post your chronology and I get to the part " H fell off a building...". Just my experience with your postings and your references to "[censored]" always give me a "Keystone Kops" feeling when I read "fell off a building".<p>Sorry, but this post won't make any taglines or "memorable posts". I'm not one of the "popular" posters, and according to Mike, my advice and observations are suspect anyway because I didn't counsel with the Harleys.<p>luv ya liz<p>Firefly - I was very careful in this post to try to stay away from "universals", i.e., always, never, all, every, etc. There are always exceptions and everyone's reactions are unique.<p>One of the problems is that too many professionals take the easy way out. George Carlin had a routine years and years ago about how our medical society had progressed to the point where the answer to everything was "...pop, pop, two in the head".<p>I'm sorry things worked out for you the way they did, but I don't agree with your premise about "general cheaters". I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about repeated infidelity being more pronounced in either group.<p>Alostwife - When Upjohn, Merck and the other pharmaceutical companies realize the revenue they are missing out, there will be pills of some kind!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BrambleRose - And I agree with you wholeheartedly. A couple of years ago I posted about BS being in their own "fog". I need to find that URL again, not that many would be interested.<p>I've noticed that with a lot of the newbies, they refuse to really look at themselves. They simply want to find the blame then take the position of superiority and wait for their spouse to acknowledge it.<p>If you try divert them from that tactic and get them to look at themselves, you are ignored, told you don't know what you are talking about and drowned out by the "enablers".<p>Anyway, since you replied to this it gives me the opportunity to tell you that I highly respect you and think the wisdom you pass on here is invaluable!! I always learn something from you.

I'm glad I can bring a little light to someones day. <p>You know, some people have found it strange that I did not curl up in a ball and die. I could have very easily done that. After all when you have your husband pushed off a building and it ends up backfiring and you have to spend much of your time wiping his butt, well, it's pretty depressing. <p>But then you make a choice.
A. Curl up in a ball and die.
B. Cry hourly.
C. Get over yourself.<p>I picked get over yourself. Not right away of course. But it was a really good choice.<p>E

I agree with this post, too. But for other reasons. As far as I know (or care), my W has no medical problem that has anything to do with her A. I would also pounce on anybody that would call her a jerk or an [censored]. She's not (well, she can be one heckuva b***h at times!).<p>What I got out of that post is what I've been realizing more clearly of late. I need to keep my focus on myself, and stop trying to "rationalize" why it is that my W's not coming out of the fog at MY speed and in MY way. This has led me to further realize just where we each are in our "recovery". I'm doing better at plan A all the time, but plan B continues to loom, because W, though she SAYS she doesn't want to "go back" is behaving more and more like "nothing happened" all the time (and hasn't yet stopped contact or POJA'd a no contact letter with me).<p>So here I am. Better me, but with difficult decisions on the horizon. Hopefully, that horizon will stay distant, even become invisible at some point, but it's still there now, and I can see it more clearly all the time.

Hey DeWayne,
Always glad to have you pop in and share your words of wisdom. You brought up some valid points to consider; have seen the things you mention happening and it leaves me pretty much speechless. I have quit giving advice, I feel like what I have learned and done, spurred on by many good people here, you included, is not really appreciated or even the same path that others are willing or able to travel. How many on here will still be here 3 years down the pike with anything to say? Let alone a success story having used their 'version' of Plan A/B. I fear that they are going to get fewer and fewer. I hope that I am surprised.<p>Anyway, hope that you are doing well...Lori popped in the other day and as always had a lot to say [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... right on the mark though.<p>We are doing better all the time, who would have thought it possible those few years ago...looking more into the future instead of the past. Guess that is what many seem to forget, there is not a quick, let's do it answer, it is a process that is forged over a lifetime. Feel like we are getting it right this time [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .

Great subject, my take on it is that there is no one cause, it is like a recipe, a little of this and a little of that and all of a sudden a bad choice is made and the A is off and running. We BS's spend a lot of time seeking to find what went into the recipe mainly because what we really want to assure ourselves of is that there was a lack of malice. We can accept careless hurt, reckless hurt, unthinking irresponsible hurt, weakness, lust, and all the rest, but we need to know they didn't intend to hurt us and how and why they could take such risks. The continuum is marked by two extremes, one one side they were mentally ill and couldn't help it, this feels better, on the other end they were bad character evil people, this feels worse. But as always the truth is somewhere in between. My perspective after reading all the books and all the websites and most importantly talking with my WW, is that it really can happen to anyone. I think of all the popes, presidents, generals, millionaires, clergyman, doctors, judges, and people from all walks of life who have paid so dearly and succumbed to the world's most potent elixir, and I doubt they were bad people, just humans like me and my WW. <p>Jack

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A couple of years ago I posted about BS being in their own "fog". I need to find that URL again, not that many would be interested.<hr></blockquote><p>I think this would be an excellent thread to bump up.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I've noticed that with a lot of the newbies, they refuse to really look at themselves. They simply want to find the blame then take the position of superiority and wait for their spouse to acknowledge it.<hr></blockquote><p>I've noticed that this is getting to be the "norm" on these boards. Sadly, it doesn't give me alot of hope for recovery for most couples here.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you try divert them from that tactic and get them to look at themselves, you are ignored, told you don't know what you are talking about and drowned out by the "enablers".<hr></blockquote><p>This is exactly why I have definitely slowed down on my posting here. Too often I read through a thread and think: Why bother? I have my own marriage and family to take care of and things to do. Why should I waste my time giving an answer that really needs posting when it will simply be ignored?<p>I posted a thread last week - it went almost totally unnoticed - except for an exOW who loved it - posted it over on the "other" board, where it went mostly ignored over there too. That thread basically contained all the things I had to learn about myself, my life and others around me. If I hadn't learned those things, I'd have never recovered my marriage.<p>I have a friend from these boards who is in Plan B right now. The current trend in the tone here is actually destructive to her and her state of mind. She sticks to her counseling with Steve Harley, and calls me about once a week with her updates. I encourage her to stay away from here - because I want so dearly for her to be a success story, regardless of the outcome of her marriage.<p>Bleah, it depresses me that I just typed that paragraph above, but its true.<p>Anyway - do bump your thread, I for one think that everyone here who wants to recover should be reading it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

First: HP, Great post!! Thank you very much!!!<p>Next, I would like to respectfully share a few comments/questions with you, BrambleRose and HeartPain,
Little makes me shudder more than people that talk behind others' backs right in front of them. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Especially when dummies like me don't know who you're talking about. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I get real paranoid, and honestly wonder if someone's talking about me. I'm sure others are like that too.<p>If you don't like the way a thread is going, then pleasae say something about it. When you see bad advice, enabling, or anything else you disagree with or disapprove of, you are condoning it by leaving it alone, right? Then it will continue. Then it will snow-ball, and lead the whole board in the wrong direction. If you ignore it, then that also gives you no right to complain when then board heads in the wrong direction - IMHO. Just like people that don't vote have no room to complain about the jerk in office.<p>I know that if I ever enable someone or give bad advice, I would love for you to please tell me, or post a better response. Then I can learn, and anyone reading can learn. You two are sitting here saying there's bad stuff going on here. Who's doing it? Guide them back on track. Is there any good stuff? I didn't see much about that here. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>HP: A couple of years ago I posted about BS being in their own "fog". I need to find that URL again, not that many would be interested.<p>F1: Quite a negative assumption, isn't it? Please DO post what you think is helpful. Some of us ARE here to learn. DOn't worry about the "swine that don't appreciate the pearls thrown before them".<p>HP: I've noticed that with a lot of the newbies, they refuse to really look at themselves. They simply want to find the blame then take the position of superiority and wait for their spouse to acknowledge it.<p>If you try divert them from that tactic and get them to look at themselves, you are ignored, told you don't know what you are talking about and drowned out by the "enablers".<p>F1: IMO, this is not true. There are lots of newbies that appreciate and listen, and are here to learn. Some of us/them slower than others. Please don't group everyone into one, big pile of stubborn kids. There are some that do what you are saying... but I wouldn't say "most". Ever heard that if you tell a child something over and over that they'll end up fulfilling the destiny you prescribe for them? I think we can encourage and guide the ones that do what you're describing, instead of telling them should'ves would'ves and could'ves.<p>HP: Anyway, since you replied to this it gives me the opportunity to tell you that I highly respect you and think the wisdom you pass on here is invaluable!! I always learn something from you. <p>F1: I agree!!! But also, I believe that if you told more members that - when you see something good going on, they would feel more encouraged to continue posting good stuff. Positive reinforcement. <p>BR,
I think your wisdom is valuable as well. I'm very concerned about some things you are saying here. Can I ask you a question? You said, "I encourage her to stay away from here - because I want so dearly for her to be a success story, regardless of the outcome of her marriage." If this is true, then why do you read and post here? If this place is bad for her, then is it bad for all of us, including you?<p>
Anyhoo... Tell me something - I'll remember it for an hour. Show me something - I'll rememeber it for a day. Do it along with me - I'll remember it for a lifetime. <p>Please don't gripe about us -> "tsk tsk - kids today!!!" ... teach us.<p>Thanks... and please set me straight if I need it, k?<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

HP, <p>Good thread. I’m hoping to find the time to remark thoughtfully to your points.<p>BR,<p>I understand what you are saying about feeling like your posts are ignored. But one thing to keep in mind is that while the person you are posting to may not appreciate your wisdom, there are probably hundreds of people who read here who do see it. They are simply too shy or reserved to post themselves.<p>You see, you respond to member A. Member A cannot see his/her own failings because it’s too close. They also cannot appreciate your tough love approach. But of all those others reading here, there will be many who will get it. There will be many who will learn because you have helped dissect member A’s situation. I see the threads as case studies. Yes we are trying to help the poster, but the thread has a life far greater then the original poster. We used a lot of case studies at the university. It is a very affective way to teach & learn. I do not always have time to post on every thread I read. But I can tell you that I have learn a lot from your point of view. So keep on doing what you do here. You are a valuable MB member.<p>Faith1,<p>I agree totally with your post. In the year I’ve been active here on MB, there have been many threads that use sweeping generalizations about how MB is going to h3ll in a hand basket. I too feel that these treads have the feel of talking about people behind their backs. They hurt. General insults will only turn people off. When I first started here I found them insulting. I almost left a few times because of such posts throwing general insults at the new members. I know of several new members who left because they felt attacked at a time when they were vulnerable and in need of real help. They were insulted for not knowing MB principles.<p>I have repeatedly said, since the very first newbie bashing thread I read that if a person feels that a thread is going the wrong way, then they need to jump in and help steer it in the right direction. If a person feels that the forum is going in the wrong direction, then jump in with your influence. If a person feels that a poster does not understand the MB concepts, then teach them in your posts. Over time it will get through to most people. No one can expect that all members will have undying respect for them simply because of the length of time they have posted here. New members don’t know any of us from Adam. We have to earn the respect and trust of every new member we interact with. It’s hard to have to prove one’s self with every post. I have learned the most from those who are persistent in their approach. Those who have shown through their own actions and words, over a long period of time, that they have something of value to offer.

Liz, again - I'm just going to say I'm proud of what you have accomplished. I also think most of your advice is truly "on the mark".<p>2long - I've been there, too. Even during the worst of times, I would have defended my W with the demeanor of a bulldog if she were attacked. This realization you are coming to is the most important thing you can do for yourself and your marriage.<p>The hardest thing for me was to finally accept that there was nothing I could do to stop, slow or impede the affair. Once I truly accepted that fact, everything else came a little easier. In my case, my W still, to this day, has contact daily with OM, wouldn't even discuss "no-contact" and doesn't believe in the H principles, especially POJA. But she does handle things her own way and even if it isn't what I would choose, it works for her and for us.<p>Victoria - Good to see you again!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] This problem of "labels", etc. isn't just a problem with this board, it has infected our entire society. No one will let me go on the "O'Reilly Factor" to talk about it, so I brought it up here since it does affect the chances of recovery.<p>The problem with success stories from people who used "their version" of Plan A/B, is that you have people like MikeC2, who denigrates advice from anyone who hasn't counseled with the Harley's(except for his "chosen" few). So naturally, people will be reluctant to tell their stories if they don't strictly follow the "party" line.<p>As for me, I'm doing much better. My M isn't where I think it could be, but that's why we keep working at it.<p>Lori's advice is always on the mark. She doesn't post as much because life is busy, but also she doesn't feel totally "safe" on the board anymore. Some of her posts have resulted in barrages of nasty e-mails from posters here.<p>Really liked this: "...process that forged over a lifetime...". Take care and continue to be happy.<p>Jack - You are exactly right, there are a myriad of reasons that an affair can eventually develop. The important thing to remember is that no matter what, it is a choice. A path that can be taken by anyone.<p>I don't think that there is often a deliberate attempt to hurt the BS. But I don't believe that these decisions are made without thinking. How many people do you think could say something like, "You know, one minute I was walking down the street and the next thing I knew I was jumping out of a plane. I have no idea how that happened."?<p>BrambleRose - I agree with your assessment. No one can keep accurate statistics, but it's my feeling that the ratio of marriage restorations to failures seems to be a lot lower now for board users than it was a couple of years ago. Again, there are no statistics, it's just a feeling.<p>I'll say one thing, I have never been the victim of a vicious attack on this board like you were. You handled it very well. I like your posts as well because they are "empowering" rather than "enabling".<p>I also find it sad that you feel your friend needs to avoid the forums, but I totally understand.<p>Faith - So if you think BR and I are talking about people behind their backs, could you please name these specific people? I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular at all. In the past on another thread, I discussed what I thought was "enabling" behavior. I'm not at all interested in who does it, I'm just interested in seeing it stop.<p>I'm sorry, most of the people who are giving the bad advice don't want to be told. They are "experts" and aren't wrong. I have a whole post about "experts" on my PC at home that I haven't posted yet.<p>Let me address your quoted points by sequence rather than quoting again...<p>1) Yup, it is a negative attitude fostered by the response to myself and others for promoting an approach that requires admission of faults and work vs. blaming the OP or the WS for everything.<p>2) These newbies that "appreciate" these posts should speak up. Otherwise the silence is deafening. No self-respecting comedian continues his act if no one ever laughs.<p>3) Positive reinforcement is always better than the 2x4 between the eyes. However, the "popular" posters are the ones that need to do this because they are paid attention to more. Very few people are going to pay attention when I praise something, and I have no problem with that.<p>About your final point to BR, it is very possible for this board, even in it's glory, to be harmful to some at some point in this process. It could be for very different reasons.<p>Anyway, I do appreciate the critical analysis, whether or not I agree, I do think things thru more when challenged.<p>zorweb - Not everyone uses "sweeping generalizations" to describe the declining conditions here. I specifically used an example once of the response to posters here from 'gloryb'. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about by people too lazy to do the research and just trying to rely on their "memory". I did the research before posting that comment, checking the "read/only" board for all references to gloryb. Do you think anyone else did?? Certainly no one who responded to that thread, that's for sure.<p>Most of the time, disagreeing with a poster just causes a ruckus, so unless it's a vicious attack on another, I usually won't respond.<p>As an example(and I'm not picking on you in particular), you had a response to inafunk that just had me throwing up my hands...<p>"...It is my observation over the last year that most of the longer Plan A's do not work...Few BS's Plan A for more then a couple of weeks, as it's purpose is to negotiate no contact and marital recovery. Two months is actually a LONG Plan A..."<p>I have several issues with this advice. First of all, from Dr. Harley himself: "...if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B...In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B...". And this from "K" "...in order to be effective, Plan A has to have been long enough to consistantly demonstrate a track record of new "non-LB" behavior. The length of this for effectiveness varies due to the state of the marriage prior to the affair (and the seriousness of the affair). Figure at least 3 months..."<p>More, from NSR "...You start Plan B only after some time in Plan A... a normal amount of time in Plan A could/should be about 6 months... but can be as little almost nothing to much more than 6 months...", from SirHurtsAlot "...I'm a Plan A guy. Been at it for a year and it is now a way of life for me. I see myself as a husband most any woman would desire. My self-esteem has increased as a part of it, and I generally like myself now. That is a great benefit of Plan A...".<p>I could go on and on and on with quotes like these from board members that 80 percent of today's users have never heard of let alone read anything from.<p>The other part of your statement that I disagreed strongly with was the part about the longer Plan As being more unsuccessful. If you were to study this more closely, you would see that the "quality" of the Plan As being done now are simply not up to par. There are lots of posters here claiming to be doing a "pristine" Plan A, when in fact they commit major LBs several times a week, about the same issues over and over. You are a very intelligent and thoughtful woman, I would think that I wouldn't have to name anyone specifically so that you would recognize this.<p>What would your response be to those of us who are "Plan A'ing for life" whether or not our marriages survived? People like lostva, NSR, Mitzi, Medic, Victoria, az allison, SirHurtsAlot, myself and many, many others....<p>If you narrowly define Plan A as simply a tool to get the WS back, you are doing a disservice to the life-changing benefits Plan A can provide. I'm just drawing on memory here so forgive me(at least I'm admitting it), but I seem to remember you replying to a post long ago where you stated you did two days of Plan A. If that's all it took, then that is wonderful!!! BUT, opinions about long-term Plan As are best left to the Harleys and those of us who did them.<p>But anyway, that's just my opinion, you are a valuable poster here and I don't want to discourage you, just expressing MHO...<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Heartpain ]</p>

Thanks zorweb. I think we're on the same page. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks DeWayne. I appreciate the discussion.<p>I can't name the "specific people", because I don't know who you were talking about. That was my point. You and BR mentioned "the enabler", "a lot of newbies", and you complained about "the tone", "being ignored", and it being a "norm on these boards". <p>I understand your thoughts much better now. Thank you for addressing my thoughts/concerns. <p>Re zorweb's plan A position... I noticed the same thing (on inafunk's thread), and I had a response all ready to post, and I didn't. It included almost the exact same quotes you used. Not sure why I didn't. Perhaps I resepct and value zorweb's advice so much, I wanted to think carefully before saying anything that may cause harm. I also wanted to see what kind of reactions it got. What I saw was at least one healthy reaction - one that thought twice about whether or not they were being a doormat (which is good self-evaluation), and they also recognized it as her opinion. (I'm referring to 2long - he may be the only one that reacted this way.)<p>oh well... that's about it. Thanks for reading and responding to me. I truly value your insightful posts, and I'm glad you are around from time to time [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .

Faith - Thanks....<p>I don't think I said "THE enabler", I mentioned "enablers" more describing a type of reply than a type of person...Sorry for the confusion. I hate to name names, because it never pays dividends. If one takes the time to analyze these things, either they see it or they don't. And if they don't that is just their opinion as seeing it is mine.<p>I was going to post most of that on inafunk's thread in response to z, but she is a good and prolific poster, so I didn't want to create a problem. Also, when one expresses a 'contrary' notion on a thread like that, it tends to develop into a "battle" and inafunk doesn't need that right now.<p>Lastly, in a difference of opinion like that, z is much better liked and respected than I, so to do "battle"(even in a respectful mode) would be a losing proposition for me and would likely turn a whole lot of people off to the idea of longer Plan As where necessary.

WHAT? Plan A for a couple of weeks, a couple of months??? I am happy and amazed for anyone who can pull this one off, but I am still shaking my head...I missed the particular post so can't really comment on the content but I can say this...it took me 3 months to finally stop white knuckling it enough to read SAA. It then took another couple of months of trial and error to figure out what a 'good' Plan A was going to be in our situation and then another 6 months or so of implementing it for it to 'take affect' both for me and H. It has been almost 3 yr since the start of H affair(~2 yr since it ended) and I consider plan A still in affect. Sure I might not call it that anymore, but the principles are ones that I still need around to remind me sometimes when I get to feeling 'ornery for whatever reason.<p>The most important thing I can say about the whole process is that it changed ME. I became a person that I like and respect and can now present that person to the man I love. Whatever happens from this point on, I know that I have/and are giving it my all in all honesty and sincerity. <p>To quote all those learned people who came before me...give it time, time, time and patience, patience, patience...that is the gift they (you all) gave to me and I hope/wish we could pass on.<p>So DeWayne do you consider yours a success story?
I do, and I think mine is too, but you would be surprised at all the people that told me to leave the bum after I posted my 2 yr update and it was not all roses and chocolates. Years of neglect aren't made up for in a few moments. H and I both have a lot of work to do to build a real marriage, and we are accomplishing that day by day. Not always peachy, but more so than not these days and I can say that we are happy. <p>Good to "see" you too...would be nice to have an old timers reunion someday...wonder how many people we could pull out of the woodwork?

Heartpain,
I confess to being a little confused about what you're driving at in your post. You wrote at length about BS's seeking to understand how this happened. You seem to understand the very real pain, and confusion that leads a BS to ask "why". <p>But you go on (and on) to say that to put a label on our S's behavior is wrong. Your reason for being so upset about this labeling escapes me. I think a person who has recently suffered betrayal is in tremendous pain. To be able to put a name on the "beast" is a bit of a comfort. If you learn your WS may be suffering from XYZ syndrome, it gives you something to do with your pain. It enables you to ask "Hey, has anyone ever recovered from XYZ" and when someone shares about their recovery, you're comforted. <p>You say some people may be too quick to jump to a "diagnosis" of a specific condition when it may not really apply in a medical sense. And your point is what? Again, I fail to see why someone incorrectly labeling their S is such a problem to you. I don't agree with you that this happens so frequently either. Actually, I've never suggested this on the board, but I suspect that many serious problems go under-reported. I think many people, especially those under 30, that come to MB because of A's are dealing with issues of Alcoholism, drug addiction, or some childhood trauma, and it has just not fully revealed itself as yet.<p>Also, I agree with Zorweb. It's been my observation that people who do extended plan A get subjected to repeated betrayal most of the time. The "quality" of the plan A seems to make no difference in the face of a S addicted to the OP. <p>I'm reminded of a news report I heard once. It was a study on the effectiveness of Valium for mild anxiety. The report said Valium was effective if used in conjunction with therapy for two years. I thought to myself "Geez, after two years I'd be over whatever was bothering me anyway". My point is this. Sometimes these things just have to run their course. It's up to us BS's to decide how we'll deal with our S's betrayal. Plan A is a noble thing to try in the beginning I think, but when confronted with continued betrayal I don't fault a BS one bit for going quickly to plan B. That BS just doesn't want to watch the A running it's course.
David

I am a relative newbie and I wanted to tell you that the beginning of this post really rang true for me as did the post by bramble rose about do you want to be right or be married.<p>When I first found out, I was angry and desperately looking for "an answer". The most salient and life changing kernel of information I have taken from these boards is the advice to look at yourself and your actions first. Plan A was hard at first because I really and truly did not get it. I think most people start out that way.<p>I really have no idea what is going to happen with my M. My WH is in and out of the fog and some days are really hard. What I have learned, however, is that I can change and I can be a better person. Yes, I think there are some people who never do comprehend that really taking a look at yourself first and working to change the pieces that are imperfect are the first steps to recovery personally, and hopefully, eventually recovery of the M.<p>Thank you for posting. I'm not sure I followed much of the rest of this post, but I sure appreciated the message at the beginning.

HP,<p>Good…. Finally something to sink our teeth into. Unfortunately this is a very busy day as it’s the last day of school and I’m getting D-12 ready for her trip back east to visit her mom. And now I have to run to the airport to pick up STL. Will be back to reply.<p>RE: Lastly, in a difference of opinion like that, z is much better liked and respected than I, so to do "battle"(even in a respectful mode) would be a losing proposition for me and would likely turn a whole lot of people off to the idea of longer Plan As where necessary.<p>This is not a popularity contest. I am very sorry that you feel that discussing something, even in a respectful mode, with me would be a battle. Why do you feel that you have to be confrontational? Your thoughts in this thread, both the original and the one addressing one of my posts has me deep in thought. Open discussion of these topics is good. That is how we exchange ideas and learn here. This is exactly what I am talking about when I say to just jump in, participate and teach.