I truly belive that the combination of the compassion from "enablers" and the hard advice from "tough lovers" is a GREAT combination for a newbie. When I was a newbie (and in some respects I still feel like a newbie!), the compassion was wonderful (it made me feel like someone truly cared and understood the pain I was in), as was the advice I received from the "tough lovers" (which also made me feel like someone cared and understood the pain I was in). I guess what I am saying is that IMHO the words of "enablers" and the "tough lovers" are equally important in the recovery of a BS or WS.
BH

Hey Tom,<p>Ya know I felt a disturbance in the force and came to find its origin only to be lead to your thread. WOW, for me to be mentioned in one of your replies. I'm glad I could bring some smiles to the board in my tenure. I'm still here just don't post much anymore. <p>You were one of the posters that I always looked for, no, really. Hey, I wouldn't sh*t you, your'e my favorite turd!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>OK, but for real I think you are on to something. I searched the net for a nice compartmental DX that I could put Valerie into. Hey, there had to be something wrong with her to mess around [the A] on me, right? I was the perfect H to her, not?<p>Then, I looked for something to label me. I got tired of falling into all categories, so I stopped. The last straw was beastiality. Ok, so I like cats, big deal. It's not my fault that they are so soft and cuddly and like to lick your face and anywhere you put peanut butter. They are also good with rice and sweet and sour sause.<p>I believe that there is also a BS "fog" that exists. I had such tunnel vision that the only thing I saw was that I was going to fix the M come Hell or High water I was gonna make it work. I couldn't live without her and she without me. So, I bought a vowel and got a clue.<p>There were good times and there were bad. I being the BS only remembered the good, and she being the WS only remembered the bad. Double fog once again. As much as everyone here hates the old time heals gig, It does. As time passed, I started to think of the bad and she the good. Val still calls me to this day. I have not spoken to her in the last 4 months, I blow her off. I know, me bad, but I can't be her friend. My friends don't lie to me or they wouldn't be considered my friends. I haven't seen her since last January 2001 just prior to our D and that is my choice. She wanted to come down to the house for some goofy reason to pick up her Mom's bike and I told her I wouldn't be here. She called three times to beg me to be here because it [the bike] is so heavy she wouldn't be able to put it in her car. Funny note, the bike was here for 5 years and Mummy didn't want/need it. I left it out back and she came to pick it up. Probably just taking up space in Brian's garage right now. I am doing better, she is doing worse. But it just goes to show the stats are very much on target. I do feel bad for her, I just can't reach her. This is a life lesson that she had to learn.<p>Not sure if you saw this, but, I asked Gina, AKA W.G.Up Hope to marry me next April. Guess what? She said yes. Imagine that!!!<p>So, Gang, remember the fog lifts on boths sides and the BS does recover before the WS. Just what I see in my previous M.<p>Take care Buddy, good to see ya here again. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Victoria - We are two peas in a pod as far as Plan A being a "lifestyle" is concerned. I Plan A everyone. It's simply the right way to live and treat others. It changed me too and that is one of it's most important side effects. For me, it's been over 3-1/2 yrs since the start of the affair, 3 yrs 2mos since D-day and 1-1/2 yrs since W was finally able to tell me in her own words that she wanted to stay in the marriage and make it work.<p>Patience is the key and the lack thereof is killing a lot of the marriages here. If you look at a lot of the failed marriages, many of the MB BSs are very bitter. I attribute this to an unsuccessful Plan A, at least as far as it changing them.<p>Yup, I consider myself and my marriage a success story and I could have written what you did because it applies the same to us.<p>I've been surprised at some of the "old-timers" that have popped in recently. I have some of their e-mail addresses, but it's been so long since I've written, I don't even know if they are valid anymore.<p>Take care Victoria. We have both managed to make the silk purses out of the sow's ears....<p>Davidb - Some of what you said I do agree with. It can be a comfort to be able to "name the beast". But if you give it the wrong name, it's a false sense of peace that will eventually lead to more pain. I still don't understand why this beast always has to have a name. People do lots of stupid and hurtful things without being "ill" in any way.<p>Why do I go "on and on"? Because this is a subject I feel passionately about. I felt this way long before my W's affair. Our society has been going downhill ever since we replaced personal responsibility with "disease". You are right, there are many illnesses that go under-reported, but these pale in comparison to the number of cases where personal responsibility is abrogated and assigned a "syndrome" name.<p>It's unfair and judgmental to label someone an "addict" when it's not true addiction, only a series of bad, indulgent choices. It's disrespectful and minimalizing to those who truly do suffer from an addiction. This same comment applies to any mental illness or syndrome.<p>Another reason I talk about this here is that in many cases, a BS will self-diagnose the WS and then use that as an excuse NOT to try as hard as they can to correct the flaws that they have that contributed to the decline of the marriage. Or, they spend valuable time searching for a mental or organic reason for the betrayal and delay the start of an earnest Plan A.<p>The tone of your post leads me to believe that you are lecturing a WS. You have been around here a long time, but I get the impression that you don't understand that I am a FBS. Never been a WS, former or otherwise. You are preaching to the choir about pain. I've been there. I've felt a pain from betrayal that equaled or exceeded the pain I felt when my 3yr old son died. You won't be able to "educate" me about pain.<p>You said, "...It's been my observation that people who do extended plan A get subjected to repeated betrayal most of the time. The "quality" of the plan A seems to make no difference in the face of a S addicted to the OP...". Do you think there are not repeated betrayals in Plan B? As far as the "quality" of the Plan A, the quality determines the growth of the BS, not how soon a WS returns to the marriage.<p>Your last point is one I agree with. If you were familiar with my postings, you would know that I got into very heated discussions in 1999/2000 over the fact that I believe that there are unique characteristics in *ALL* betrayals and in some cases, you need to "tweak" the Harley methods to see success. I did.<p>I hope you have success in surmounting your pain, Davidb.<p>unsureheart - Thank you for the vote of confidence. Make no mistake, I went thru exactly the same thing, thinking there had to be something wrong either mentally or organically with my W for her to do such a thing. It was only when I finally accepted that these things can happen to anyone that is a human, that anyone is susceptable to making bad choices, that I was able to use Plan A to concentrate on myself.<p>Hang in there.....<p>zorweb - Look, let's get one thing straight. I have nothing against you, I respect you and your opinions and I am tickled pink that you and STL doing so well. However, my statements still stand. I don't feel I'm being confrontational, and I don't even think that if there was a "battle" that you would be a primary combatant. However, the straight fact of the matter here is that many times it does boil down to a "popularity contest". This board is more "cliqueish" than a junior-high school. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've even been a part of one here, I think. People going thru this need different levels of "connection". A tendency of cliques is a "one for all, all for one" mentality where you defend the clan, right or wrong. That's what I was avoiding.<p>Chastizing some of us for not "jumping in" and posting all the time is unfair. Some of us don't really have a lot of free time. I don't see STL here that often anymore and I would guess that he is pretty busy. Applies to me to. I tend to "steal" time to be here many times when I shouldn't.<p>I am pleased that something I have said leaves you "deep in thought". In some ways I am like SNL in that I love a spirited discussion. I sometimes "like" being told I'm wrong on something because it makes me think more thoroughly and clearly about the issue. <p>brokenhearted - There is a huge difference between comfort, support and empathy and "enabling". The first is manifested as a Clintonesque, "I feel your pain", or "i've felt the same way, but it does get better". Enabling takes its most insidious form here when people act out the antithesis of Plan A and are told "don't feel bad I would have done the same thing and besides, your WS deserved that". Enabling makes you feel good about doing the wrong things and encourages you to repeat it.<p>Tim - I'm certainly glad to hear from you and I'm ecstatic that you and G are so happy. You deserve each other in every way, joy and punishment!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I remember the "foggy" time you mentioned. You were also the first one I saw that experienced something that I did too. Remember when Val gave you the very strong impression that you guys were going to work things out? You suddenly had this feeling that maybe it wasn't what you wanted after all. I experienced this, too. I think a lot of BSs go thru this period and it's a watershed moment for them to decide whether or not they really want the marriage. It's also the side effect of a long Plan A.<p>I do read your posts occasionally and am always totally baffled at how Val tries to stay in contact. She's still in the fog, my friend and reality hasn't set in. I think that someday, she will start the exit from the fog and wonder why you aren't still interested in working things out with her. At least that's MHO.<p>You deserve happiness my friend for all the laughter and joy you have brought to those of us on the board and, more importantly, Gina. You also take care....

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You are preaching to the choir about pain. <hr></blockquote>
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] OK, and I'll accept the admonishment about "lecturing" from someone who seems to know about the subject [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Do you think there are not repeated betrayals in Plan B? <hr></blockquote><p>Yes of course but the BS doesn't have to watch. See the one point I made that I'm going to stick with, is that sometimes these things just run their course. I do know that you're a BS, and I know some of your story and it's clear that you and I are just not cut from the same bolt of cloth. It may be partly due to the fact that I am a real "addict". Though I've not taken anything stronger than aspirin since 1987, I was addicted to heroin and other drugs for many years. For whatever reason, I look at betrayal done in secret, with all the associated lies they tell themselves like "he'll never find out", and betrayal after they've been found out as two very different things. More power to those for whom plan A works, but I did not have it in me. I told my W on dday to choose the M or the door and that choosing the M meant no contact, accountability, etc. I'm very thankful she chose the M. It's been very rough. My W was keeping secret several A's and eventually entered an inpatient treatment center for sexual compulsivity for 5 weeks. She's kept her word about contact though. <p>So I guess you could say that with my background I don't have the self-esteem necessary to stand by and accept a cointinued A or continued contact. Also, I feel, at least for people like me, and my W, a plan A is just enabling. Though I didn't have to deal with a continued A, I was comforted greatly by Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough". It was in setting firm boundaries that I began to get my self-respect back.<p>David<p>[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Davidb ]</p>

Davidb - Thanks for the discussion.<p>You know, you don't really have to explain to me or anyone else why you are handling this the way that you are. As I said above, I believe that even though most affairs follow the "cookbook", there are enough unique aspects that we have to make adjustments in how we handle it.<p>You have every right to see "open" and "secret" infidelities as two separate things. Others will choose to see them as the same, just as there are others who see betrayals in Plan A or Plan B or separation as exactly the same.<p>It's as Dr. Phil says (paraphrase here), ...infidelity is whatever your spouse says it is...<p>I don't think it's necessarily a lack of self-esteem that causes you to be intolerant of a continued affair or continued contact. Only you can know that for sure, but it could just be a normal intolerance for BS(the other kind).<p>You just continue to do what you feel is best. There is no greater authority when you are sure what you want or how you want to handle something.<p>Faith just bumped up a post of mine where I made this exact point.<p>You are a strong man and a helluva person to have overcome your drug addictions and to deal with your W's affairs the way you have. My hat is off to you.

Heartpain,<p>It is always nice to see an oldtimer like yourself around. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

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Quote HeartPain<p>If you narrowly define Plan A as simply a tool to get the WS back, you are doing a disservice to the life-changing benefits Plan A can provide.
______________________________<p>First of all, from Dr. Harley himself: "Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands.”<p>To ignore that this is the primary purpose of Plan A is to ignore the very foundation of the Harley approach to “Surviving an Affair”.
The above is quoted from What Are Plan A and Plan B? by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D. . The article goes on to discuss other times/situations when a person may want to use Plan A.
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Quote HeartPain
What would your response be to those of us who are "Plan A'ing for life" whether or not our marriages survived? People like lostva, NSR, Mitzi, Medic, Victoria, az allison, SirHurtsAlot, myself and many, many others....
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What I would say to those of US who are “Plan A’ing for life” is “Way to Go!”. Note that I used the pronoun “US”. STL and I can be included in that list. MB principles are not hard to learn or hard to live. They are simple and therefore very profound and elegant. I still participate on MB because it’s a life long process that requires constant attention and learning. To maintain the MB concepts into one’s life whether or not the marriage survives is wise. We have brought them into our family and are teaching them to our children. The four rule (time, care, protection and honesty) have had a profound affect on our children and our family life. I am hoping that by the time they start dating (they are 12, 13 & 14) they will have the concepts well under their belts.
I have been troubled for quite some time about the term “Plan A’ing for life”. It confuses many people. Harley says that Plan A is to negotiate total separation in infidelity, and to negotiate better behavior when there is bad behavior. When you are say that you are ‘Plan A’ing for life’ your wife? Or are you saying that you are living by the MB principles?
In my reading of Harley’s writings he says that people cannot Plan A for long because during Plan A they have virtually no boundaries. (I’m searching for the source of this. Hope to be able to post it later). A person cannot live without boundaries forever. The question is what is the definition of ‘long’ … is it two weeks, 2/6/24 months? I think that the definition is dependent on the individual. To have a healthy marriage, both spouses need to have healthy boundaries. He also says that a person should not try to Plan A anyone other then their spouse because it is not healthy to have no boundaries in relationships with people.. Including our children, extended family members and close friends.
IMHO, what is often called “Plan A for life” here really is when a person uses the MB principles to live their life. I’d rather say that I was MB’ing for life then Plan A’ing for life. IMHO it is more to the point. The life-changing benefits are from learning and living MB principles. They do not come from Plan A itself. They are a part of Plan A but the concepts have a life far beyond Plan A.
So now on to my earlier post that you objected to….
I said: "...It is my observation over the last year that most of the longer Plan A's do not work...."
Based on the definition that Plan A is to negotiate no contact, there comes a time when Plan A no longer works, it becomes a lifestyle in which the BS (or plan A’ing spouse) has no boundaries. Hence they become a doormat to the Plan A’d spouse who just loves it.
To quote Harley:
“Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. “
I said: “Few BS's Plan A for more then a couple of weeks, as it's purpose is to negotiate no contact and marital recovery. “
This did not come out the way I meant it. I should have been clearer. There is a post around here somewhere that quotes Jennifer as saying (paraphrased) that it is very hard to Plan A when the WS is still living with the BS and the affair is active. As I recall she is quoted as saying that most people cannot do it for more then two weeks.
I said… “ Two months is actually a LONG Plan A..”
Based on what Jennifer said and on the h3ll I know most BS go through at this time, two months is a LONG Plan A. Sure there are those who can Plan A for 3/6/24 months. But not all people can.
Remember that in that post I was responding to a WS who was upset that her H was not Plan A’ing her, had filed for divorce, and was starting to party like a single guy. Someone else was chastising him for not Plan A’ing her further. My point was that her H has apparently reached HIS limit. Not his wife’s expected limit, not your limit and not my limit, but HIS limit. And that for him to put up with her continued contact and none committal to the marriage for two months is a long time FOR HIM. It would be a long time for many people. If we figure that most people cannot do it for 2 weeks. And we figure that Harley says to give it at least 3 months… well two months is longer then 2 weeks and it’s pretty darn close to 3 months.
Could he have done better? Sure. Was his Plan A stellar? Probably not. What mattered is that he had given up on it and she has to deal with the reality of her situation.
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Quote HeartPain
“The other part of your statement that I disagreed strongly with was the part about the longer Plan As being more unsuccessful. If you were to study this more closely, you would see that the "quality" of the Plan As being done now are simply not up to par. There are lots of posters here claiming to be doing a "pristine" Plan A, when in fact they commit major LBs several times a week, about the same issues over and over. You are a very intelligent and thoughtful woman, I would think that I wouldn't have to name anyone specifically so that you would recognize this.”
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Oh I have seen this too. It’s been like that since the first day I posted here. I have posted to many of the people who are ‘Plan A challenged’, as have many others, to try to get them to understand and improve their Plan A. Not all people respond. Some people take a long time to learn this. Others will never learn it.
So why are the quality of the Plan A’s not as good as they used to be? Well maybe people had more, solid support available when Steve was active here and when the generation of member who learned directly from Steve were more active. It would be wonderful if more old timers posted on a regular basis. I am not sure what makes a person an “old timer”. So I would say that I wish more people who had good, solid successes ( whether or not their marriage was recovered) with MB would post here regardless of what kind of ‘timer’ they are. But we gots what we gots. And there is no one here to lead the pack. It’s all volunteer and totally non-organized.
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Quote HeartPain
I'm just drawing on memory here so forgive me(at least I'm admitting it), but I seem to remember you replying to a post long ago where you stated you did two days of Plan A. If that's all it took, then that is wonderful!!! BUT, opinions about long-term Plan As are best left to the Harleys and those of us who did them.
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Yes I did say long ago that I Plan A’d for two days. If I recall correctly I said that if I Plan A’d at all it was for about 2 days. It was at a time when I was still trying to figure out what Plan A was. I’ve retracted it since and explained where I was coming from. When I found out about STL’s affairs I did not see how we could continue our marriage. In my mind and heart our marriage was over. I was freighted by what he had done. I felt that I did not know him. I felt great hatred for him. He read, “Surviving an Affair” and started applying Plan A and MB concepts. This slowly won me back. So he used Plan A to negotiate my working on recovery. This Plan A started in early April 2001. But it’s hard to say when it ended because we just naturally progressed to MB’ing for life. I’d guess it was 3 months.<p>As for leaving opinions about long-term Plan A’s to the Harleys and those who did them. Humans learn from observation. I stated my opinion, based on my observation. I did not state it as fact. Anyone who takes anything anyone of us states as our opinion as gospel is doing themselves a disservice. Generally, educated/intelligent people take the opinions of others with a grain of salt. I was presenting my view. Others presented theirs. It is up to the reader to decipher the information and arrive at their own opinion. <p>I have never seen any statistics provided by anyone, not even Harley as to what percentage of BS’s were able to negotiate no-contact and the start of marital recovery at any given time period. I do believe that Harley has a good feel for it and that with him it’s an art. I’ve observed that he advises people to move to Plan B dependent on their unique situation.<p>Though you recall that my current situation was a short and very successful Plan A, you may not know that I did what amounted to a very very long Plan A in my previous marriage. In the last 3 years of my marriage I found a counselor who guided me through what looks an awful lot like Plan A. As time went on I got better at it. I did the self-evaluation, tried to identify his EN’s and meet them. I tried to negotiate him stopping his abusive behaviors, end the affairs, and work on marital recovery. I experienced the great personal growth you talk about. It was the best thing (besides my son) to come from that marriage. STL and my current marriage have benefited very much from that growth. I doubt I could have come to the point I have in my current marriage had I not experienced that growth. <p>But I made a fatal mistake… I did not go to Plan B when I should have. The one thing that my counselor did not seem to know of was Plan B, it’s benefits and when to go there. By the time I left, my love bank was so far in the negative that I would not even consider recovery.<p>After about the 9-month mark of Plan A it became a life style. My ex-H loved it. He did what he wanted with whomever he wanted, his abuse got worse, and he would not even discuss working on the marriage. I was the good wife who filled the needs he would allow me to fill and who did as little love busting as possible. He had it made.<p>In observing many of the people who post here, I see the same pattern developing in many, NOT ALL, of the long term Plan A’ers. While they may benefit from the personal growth, Plan A starts to loose it’s affect on the WS after a while.

Thank you all for sharing your insights. I am a wife, BS, struggling with trying to understand "WHY???" also. It is difficult to believe that the person I love, married and committed to could inflict such excruciating pain on purpose. He, WS, said that it was not deliberate, that it just happened. I told him that if he were honest with himself he would admit that it didn't "just happen".

Is this another test to see how much a wife loves her husband??

This post had complete escaped my mind!!!!!

sing - Hi back at ya, good to see you here also!!

zorweb - WOW!! I really want to respond to what you said. Thank you so much for such a well-thoughtout reply...I will be back...

gaiaa - Hello and I am so very sorry that you find yourself in the situation you are now. There are many, many people here that can help you. I only have a minute, so I won't give you an "official" welcome, just my take on what you said.

I think that thru this process you are going to find a whole lot of "test to see how much a wife loves her husband" situations. Have you read the introductory material at this site? Your H has and still is at least partially, in the fog.

I know the "why" is important, it was and still is to me also. I am in the position of probably never really knowing the totality of why, because my W hasn't yet answered that question completely to herself. There are some painful memories for her associated with that time and she doesn't like re-visiting it. I do believe that she knows enough to prevent anything like that from happening again and that is going to have to do, I guess.

I don't believe your H just sat down one day and decided "I'm going to hurt gaiaa as much as I can". On the other hand, these things don't "just happen" either, I don't care what your H says. Even though he probably didn't mean to intentionally hurt you, he made a fully conscious and completely selfish decision to do what he did.

I'm sure that his common sense and good judgement were probably on an extended vacation. It's just that his rationalization skills were exercised to the fullest.

In most cases, the WS is aware of the pain and anguish that they will cause by being unfaithful. It's just that knowledge is overridden by awareness of what getting their needs met is going to feel like and they can then rationalize like crazy and convince themselves that no harm will be done.

You said, "It is difficult to believe that the person I love, married and committed to could inflict such excruciating pain on purpose". Well, he kinda did it on purpose and kinda not. The bottom line for you is just to accept the fact that he did hurt you and look inside yourself to discover what it's going to take to heal.

As you evaluate those things that will heal you, be sure to put them into two columns, "must have" and "nice to have". You don't want to drive the WS away by insisting on something you really don't have to have to recover.

Stay here on the site awhile and read, read, read...

{{{{{gaiaa}}}}}