Well… I’ve taken my greatest leap of faith to date… took on the elephant, bare handed!<p>This morning, WW and I were sitting around, drinking our coffee. My discussion with her about my moving was weighing heavily on my mind, and she picked up on it, asked me what was up. I had no reason to delay or question any longer – I dove in head first.<p>I explained that I truly valued her recent affection and love… but I also need something more. That in its current context, my love is still draining away, given that the root issue is still there – she knew exactly what I was talking about. I told her that I’d found a place, and that I needed to do this to protect my remaining love for her – and for my dignity.<p>She reacted with another fit of crying… but in many ways, instead of her falling apart, I think she’s starting to “fall together”! We talked for about 3 hours, openly and honestly. There were no LB’s going either way. I refused to be angry or bitter – and so did she.<p>She asked for and got clarification on what she needs to do to change my course: an effort to try on the M, and all the associated things that entails – she acknowledged what that meant.<p>She openly admitted her responsibility in all of this. She admitted that she’s been thinking more and more clearly lately – making some progress. I thanked her for that. I also admitted that it’s been hard for me in a way, because these loving gestures are still occurring in an “uncommitted” state. She admitted that our pleasant times as of late has been helpful for her to see what’s possible in the future – yeah Plan A!!!<p>She admitted that as of late, she’s been working on teasing out the feelings of love and resentment she has for me – like sorting out a bunch of pencils in a haystack. And part of this, she admitted openly was now that she’s understanding her selfishness during this, was to figure out what her real feelings for OM are – are they based on how he makes her feel, i.e. from a selfish perspective.<p>I have promised myself no expectations out of this. But I do see some very distinct signs of promise. The way she talked… very little anger… very much attacking herself. She even said she hated the line in my letter about how I’d “created an environment” that allowed the A’s to happen – she said she was solely at fault. I tried to balance her a bit, let her know that I assumed my share of the blame, and that I’ve grown from it.<p>She admitted that she feels my pain – that sometimes it’s so overwhelming it almost makes her physically ill. She admitted that once again, I’m the one to take the decisive action. She talked in terms of “us” and “me” – only one very brief mention of OM.<p>On the down-side, she admits she’s still “so confused.” She admitted she doesn’t know what she’s looking for – I appear to have it all!<p>I may have forced her onto a “fast track” with this in some ways. She clearly doesn’t want to be alone, and she knows deep down (or maybe not so deep) that OM is not the answer. She wanted to know details about how big the place was, when I was considering moving, etc. – and we both agreed actually that maybe it was time to move anyhow – our current place has very few positive memories – we moved in just shortly before this whole thing started (in secret for several months before d-day). She acknowledged that she might end up with me in this new place shortly.<p>She also admitted that yesterday, a part of her wanted to just pack us up and move back home, to be back with our families, etc. – so this was even before I self-confronted today. Good sign. It appears the fog has been clearing a bit, and this will only help, I’m almost certain.<p>But I also know I need to stick to my guns here and follow through. I think a few days between discussing it and actually carrying it out might be good – each situation must be judged on its own.<p>We finally were able to drag ourselves up to get ready for half a day of work. She’s in pretty rough shape suddenly… can’t help her skin rash!! I told her I loved her as I was nearly ready to go, and she said she loved me. We kissed – best, longest kiss in nearly 9 months.<p>So that’s my update… stay encouraged… stay away from LB’ing at all costs… loving but resolved.

JR, <p>I am sooo proud of U!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Grinning from ear to ear. <p>Stick to your guns but don't shoot them, not yet. Looks like the fog is clearing and it is a given thing that she will still be confused, cold and wet!! LOL! So lending her a hand may mean her finding out how much she wants and needs you!<p>Take care,
L.

Wow! Thanks for the update! Keep us posted!<p>Yes, ya gotta have faith - a faith - a faith!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>(Yay on the kiss!!! woo-hoo!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

JR hi,<p>Congratulations you handled that so well.<p>Did you give her the plan B letter ? If so you must (IMVHO) leave quickly.<p>She sounds like a spoiled child and marriage is for grownups. <p>I believe you need an absolute commitment to MB recovery followed by a period of separation (her living alone) before you let her even think about moving into your new home.<p>Good luck<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</p>

JR,
Staying clear-headed through a 3 hour talk is a major accomplishment for anyone. Good for you.

Agree with Lor.<p>You have been clear headed throughout the whole thing. Most " Loose It" too many times and it confuses the WS. <p>I say, like the others, stay on course and you will come out where you want to be. I can't see any faults in what you are doing. <p>Remember that there will still be bad times, continue to be positive about the long term outcome. <p>SS

Thanks for the encouragement, all...<p>Last night, WW didn't sleep more than an hour. In the middle of the night, she was tossing and turning, I woke up, and she wanted to talk... talk about how she's been such a failure, how she wanted to keep our parents out of this if we could, how this couldn't have come at a worse time, how she once again wishes she hadn't told me about this (she could have worked it out herself!!??). I saw regret, anger towards me, and possibly some attempts at talking me out of this. Basically, she's losing it... Is THIS rock bottom YET??<p>This morning, she was still weepy and distraught. She has suddenly the capacity to recall a lot more good memories of our past now, too!! She also sure wanted to hold me a lot.<p>Again, quite a nice kiss as she left, in tears for her IC session this morning.<p>I'm kind of scared for her. I had her promise me that she'd look into meds soon. She agrees now. Between those, some time alone, and my Plan A... my gosh, I can't imagine what else I can say I've done or what more I could be doing for her!!

IMO... continue waiting, watching, and being open and loving toward her, but stick to the guns you showed her yesterday. <p>You can't fix this for her. But you don't want to slam the door if she's trying to walk through it.<p>J.R. - I know YOU know... actions are what's important. Tears, remorse, regret are common, and a GOOD sign... but they are only a sign. Watch for her to be willing to take steps - counseling, meds, NC letter, POJA...

JR stay AWAY from caretaking! I know you are afraid for her, but she has to feel the consequences of her actions...it's CRUCIAL!! LET HER GROW UP!! She has the IC to help her. I disagree with leaving the parents out of it...she's looking to save face and avoid embarassment...these too are consequences. Obviously there is no reason to call them up and tell them everything, but I would NOT lie for her or try to pretend in front of them. Of course she wishes she could have worked this out herself...she wouldn't have had to face the music then. In the long run it being out in the open is the best thing. I think she's in a GREAT place!! She's out of the fog...not rock bottom. Being in the real world is darn scary! You know it! You've been there through this whole thing! She's got to learn the skills to cope with that. And she WILL.<p>I'm not sure how good all the kisses and hugs are right now. I know you both need to feel loved and reassured by each other...but be careful that doesn't become a crutch. I think you both need this space and time apart....and that means no touchy feely I miss you I wanna get back togethers....until the WORK IS DONE, or atleast majorly in progress. As long as she's getting reassurances that you're still there...that progress may be slow. I could be wrong on that too.<p>Anyway, all in all you're moving forward....FABULOUS!!!

Just wanted to check in... I'm not doing great the last little while... This whole moving to Plan B thing is setting me up for depression, I can tell - not just WW.<p>OMG, it's so obvious we're so emotionally fused, it's crazy. We're so attached to each other, so much love is there... enough for me to question "what the heck am I doing? am I really ready for Plan B?"<p>But the situation just couldn't continue as is. If she had agreed at any point along the way here to TRY, I might have a different attitude.<p>At very least I know this... she wants to be honest... and so if she says she's going to try - she's going to try, at least in her mind. And she knows what that means - no OM!<p>This morning, she was wandering around the apartment, crying. She dug out a cross-stitch she'd done a couple of years ago... she handed it to be, in tears, saying "I want you to have this, I made it for you."<p>This is going to be so hard... got to get through the long weekend with her, trying to Plan A as best I can. Got to go to Dallas next week for work. After I get back... gah... I guess I need to move out. Deposit and first month is paid.<p>Did I mention that I hate this?<p>I suddenly feel like I'm playing craps with my life here, even though I know in my heart that it's the right thing to do - the only thing I can do.<p>>>> But you don't want to slam the door if she's trying to walk through it <<<<p>Very good point... I want to believe she's trying to find the door through the (clearing) fog.<p>>>> I'm not sure how good all the kisses and hugs are right now <<<<p>Well, as Steve has put it, you're either in Plan A or Plan B... so until I'm actually gone, I'll try to meet any EN she allows... and suddenly I'm looking at a whole lot more.<p>Again, I hope it's painting a picture of what IS possible between us in the future. It will end when I leave - I'm still very serious about doing a very, very good Plan B...<p>This will get easier, I hope. I hope she doesn't have "out of sight, out of mind" once I'm gone - I seriously doubt it based on what I'm seeing right now.

JR,<p>If she has an out of sight out of mind, thing when you go to plan B you have your answer. There was nothing to save. You MUST go to plan B, as she is still involved with OM. <p>She knows where she can find you, and she should or will know under what conditions she can find you. OM out of the picture and her WANTING to work on the marriage, not just WILLING to work on it. You are doing the right thing.<p>There have been a lot of "second chances" and she has failed all of them so far. First, consequence you go to plan B. Next consequence her family learns about what she did. THe following consequence is D and you moving on to a much better relationship.<p>I know you don't realize this now, nor do you feel this, but you are in an excellent position. This thing is going to come to an end soon one way or another, and when it does. You my friend will benefit. You have learned so much about yourself and relationships.<p>So, while I realize how scary this seems to you, and I realize you would really rather be happily married to your W, the reality is that she is still in the affair with OM and is still in love with him. <p>So do your best this weekend, do your business trip, and then come back and MOVE. It is time.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: When you move to your new apartment, decorate it. Make it a place that you like coming home to. This is very important for you and it will also be important for your W. Trust me here. If you make your new place YOUR new place, it will open her eyes further.<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

J.R.:<p>Good luck to you, man!<p>"Last night, WW didn't sleep more than an hour. In the middle of the night, she was tossing and turning, I woke up, and she wanted to talk... talk about how she's been such a failure, how she wanted to keep our parents out of this if we could, how this couldn't have come at a worse time, how she once again wishes she hadn't told me about this (she could have worked it out herself!!??). I saw regret, anger towards me, and possibly some attempts at talking me out of this. Basically, she's losing it... Is THIS rock bottom YET??"<p>Um... you should write everything she said down and post it to the "fog" statements thread! Sorry to make such light of your situation, but trying to lift your spirits a bit. You're doing excellent! Provided you do stand by your plan B. <p>h4f: "I'm not sure how good all the kisses and hugs are right now. I know you both need to feel loved and reassured by each other...but be careful that doesn't become a crutch."<p>I know what you mean here, but I think JR is right in that any "points" he can accrue while still in plan A can only leave her with fond memories of being with him while they're out of contact. All this, PROVIDED he sticks by his plan B.<p>I think this will save his M. This is just the nuke that her A needs. Her cakewalking was going "flawlessly" up till now, because she thought he didn't know what she was still up to. Not 'ne more.

Only YOU know when you're ready.... we are here to help you do it. I think you're making the right decision, based on the following. But, we will support you if you change your mind. THere's been many successful MB'ers who refused to listen to the majority telling them to go to Plan B (Cali being one off the top of my head).<p>You must be willing for the marriage to end, before you move to plan B, k? It may not. But you have to be willing to accept that as a possibility.<p>Some quotes from the Harley link in my sig line....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other. <p>So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. <p>Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. <p>* * * <p>In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. <p>* * * <p>But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. <p>* * *<p>So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. <p>* * *<p>The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage. <p>* * *<p>Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time, and once the commitment is made, end your separation and begin a marriage that will last a lifetime. <hr></blockquote><p>Can't remember... did you include the "recovery plan" in your Plan B letter? I'll go look. I think you did.

Well, I got an e-mail from WW today, in reply to one from me.<p>"Actually, I had one the best sessions with IC that I've had so far. I actually feel better now than I did this morning. I'm going back to see her tomorrow. We've started some important work about my childhood. She was so understanding, and I think a bit saddened by some of the stuff I told her. I'm a little nervous about this. We're getting into scary territory. I'll explain more tonight. I will seriously consider e-mailing that person. But first I need to come to terms with my history.
I think there is a deeper problem here. So does IC."<p>Not sure what to expect from this... it appears that crisis is indeed a catalyst - admission of A #1 happened just before therapy started months ago. Now this.<p>My instincts are telling me to approach things carefully. I'm still moving ahead here, but I do accept the need to be smart about it... as Faith said, don't slam the door in her face... that's the great thing about plans - they can be adjusted - but that's the thing about boundaries - they shouldn't be (or only made stronger)!<p>BTW, if any other FWS's out there are willing to talk to my WW, let me know... her willingness to do this is unparalleled for her!

J.R.<p>I hope someone responds, and soon. I think it's good that your W is seeing her C TOMORROW, TOO, in addition to the visit she just had. Shows she's "trying" in some way, at least.<p>I'm not too excited about the "I started out as a child" approach, myself. It sounds like a waste of time, but I'm NOT A PROFESSIONAL, and so I may be full of squat. I haven't had that come up in any of my sessions with 3 different C's yet. We got right into the "present" problem in all cases.<p>As for not slamming the door. I think Faith is right in that you really, really need to decide whether you're doing the right thing by going to plan B yourself. Because, if you love her as much as you sound like you do, you'd better be prepared for DV if she finds she likes being alone after all. It could happen, but you'd be a better judge of what your W is likely to do (assuming anybody can be, even her) than any of us.<p>I will guardedly reiterate what I said yesterday, or whenever that was. If you think that there's a chance that she can reallly commit to your M and is willing to stop contact with OM (which frankly will involve quitting her job NOW, doesn't it?), then make her do this extraordinary thing, AND make it possible for you to monitor her every move for a while. Would she do that to keep you from moving? Again, only you'd be able to tell.<p>I don't want to be "blamed" for encouraging you to make the wrong decision here, but hope that these ideas help you determine that, and feel confident it was the right choice, for yourself.

JR,<p>You are getting the cart before the horse. You are not going to Plan B because you Don't love your W. You are going to plan B because OM is still in the picture and it is KILLING your love for your W.<p>No matter what she discovers about herself, no matter how sorry she is, no matter how much she wants to rebuild the marriage, IF OM is still in the picture, her stated WANTS do not the reality of her relationships. That is why you stay in Plan B.<p>The door is always open, but the requirement is that the affair is over and she WANTS to work on the marriage. That is what you need to remember.<p>I know this sounds exciting that somehow she is getting to the bottom of WHY she has done what she has done, BUT the issue is: Is she still doing it?? If she is, then Plan B is where you need to be, especially as she starts to work through things. You see you don't know whether her working through things will come out in your favor, OM's favor, or no one.<p>You have done a good Plan A. It is clear she is feeling safer with you. That means it is likely that plan B will do what it is designed for, PROTECT YOU. You see you are still not safe with her, and that is the issue here. YOUR SAFTEY with regards to your love bank.<p>Frankly, she even mentioned ultimately moving with you to your new apartment. So the doors aren't closed if you go to Plan B, but the prime objective is to end the withdrawal from you, by her continuing on with OM.<p>I don't really like to be hard line here, but it seems that she needs to see that you do have boundaries, and that these boundaries can only be crossed when she is willing to do what is necessary.<p>See what I mean?? Have some faith in yourself, if she really hated you and was sure OM was the best she would have been gone. You have more going for you than you realize.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: I do hope some of the people you requested do show up.

NO NO NO!!!!!<p>I'm telling you....different situation or NOT...if you cave now you're asking for trouble.<p>Yes, NOW, faced with REALITY AND CONSEQUENCES, she's willing to try a little this and that. She's got a LOOOOOONG WAYS to go and YOU KNOW THAT! Childhood issues or not...and believe me I had many...she STILL thinks she can do this on her own terms and on her own time. You stay...she'll drag it out. You SET a boundry, she continued in her OWN path...now you've got to back your words up with action.<p>A few days ago when you got a positive testing on that semen test you weren't worried about seperating. Now she's showing GOOD POSITIVE SIGNS that your life will do nothing but BENEFIT from this experience....and you want to change the course???? NOOOOOO! I implore you....<p>I'm not worried about giving you the wrong advice, because I KNOW what I'm talking about...I absolutely KNOW. As the WS in our situation, I too could cry and bring up all the things I'd "learned"....but believe me...I didn't GET IT until much much later. I too refused medication and help because I could do it on my own. Those that did give me advice were seldom listed to because I knew better. I just wanted to work things out my own way. Sound familiar???<p>You aren't TOYING with your life...you're assuring you have the life you want...the life you deserve...and not just getting by. Don't let fear ruin that for you...you aren't punishing her...you're saving the love you have left to build on when she's better.<p>Does any of that make sense? Can you get an emergency session with one of the Harleys? I would be willing to bet they would be for the move as well. You aren't abandoning her when she needs you most...you're doing the most loving thing imaginable by letting her learn how to stand on her own two feet. This is a NECESSARY thing!!!<p>You will be fine. Go through with the move. My most unfortunatly experienced opinion.

J.R.<p>Faced with the comments from people much wiser and more experienced than myself (JL and H4F), I think I'd like you to put my recommendations aside in favor of their more thoughtful recommendations that you GO AHEAD WITH PLAN B. <p>I'm sorry to JL and h4f (and you, J.R.) for appearing to try to change your mind. I guess I'm thinking too much about my own situation and my choices, which are both far less serious at the moment than your own.<p>Persevere!

2Long, I've read much of your and Spaceys situations too....and I wouldn't doubt for a minute that a nice large dose of reality and consequences wouldn't do your situations a TON of good too. But when there are kids involved...I think it's always good to hold on as long as you can stand. JR doesn't have that...and his wife is still so STUCK even after showing signs that she actually does KNOW what she wants. I feel EXTREMELY confident that she'll come around.