At DDay, he was positive he was going to divorce me and marry her, and I thought our marriage was over.<p>After reading LOTS of books, including Harley, and talking to him a lot, I privately gave our marriage a 5% chance of succeeding.<p>In Feb, had long emotional, clearing discussion with WH. I am positive that he has some understanding of what I feel, and I wrote a letter, clearly stating that his choice to stay forever meant giving her up, although I wasn't ready to make a timeline.<p>In March, he stopped talking about leaving me for her and started talking about how he couldn't leave because of being responsible for the kids. (I'm thinking, "I don't care what reason you use to save face, get rid of her, and I will double plan A efforts and once you are out of withdrawal, we are going to make it!")
I dialed up my success-o-meter to 40% chance of succeeding.<p>In April, he said, "I'm staying." But because we were in the middle of finals, etc., I didn't press for details. But I private dialed up the chance of success of our marriage to 50%.<p>Recently, I decided I could not live with the uncertainty and came out and said, "I know you said you are staying, but are you still seeing her? He said, "I'm staying till you make me leave." After a LOT of returning to the topic of "Are you still seeing her?" he said, "You can't expect me not to see her, she is part of my support system and I am under a lot of stress."<p>But then later he said he appreciated my patience with him, so maybe he really thinks he can wean himself from her? (In some never-reached time when he will be under less stress?)<p>This is the first time since Dday that I had to ask more than once to get an honest answer, I'm worried. Just how far down should I dial that chance of success? I got my hopes up, and now I'm hurting.

Dear Bgentle,<p>Sad but true. Our spouses do the worse to us. We could not ask for a worse human enemy. Why do they treat us this way? <p>His reason about I will stay until you make me leave excuse is babble. My H did the same thing and I showed him the door the same hour. <p>He kept trying to come back. Even cried from the OWs house last year. He had it made. OW took him in with her and her dogs. Now why would he want to come back to a person who was 'soooo bad' that he had to go and have an A? <p>I tell you it is because that was not as true as he and the OW would like to believe. <p>You are in the part of your grieving process where anger sets in. Know this and know you are actually progressing towards personal recovery. If your H wants to join you then your M has a chance for marital recovery. <p>His babble about weaning himself from the OW is just that. I told H that I wanted to push their faces together so they could have all the togetherness they want. They price for that was disowning his family. I did not want the OW in my life and I had made up my mind that even if it cost me an H and a father that we (our family) would have to make that sacrifice. WE really weren't losing much since emotionally, physically, mentally and a few other ...allys he wasn't really here anyway. <p>He knew I meant business. Detatching is a good thing. I am glad I was able to reach that point and do it. <p>
Arrrrrgh.... he kept coming back. Once that trend was established, I started setting priorities. The more he babbled the higher the priorities went. At least the quicker it went up and he knew that. <p>That is where we are today. He is here and working on taking care of his family. That includes me and I am not forsaking my needs again. <p>L.

Bgentle,
You've got a cakeman on your hands. Wants the wife and family, wants the OW and whatever it is she's doing for him... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] support system. <p>He won't change a thing until either you or the OW change your expectations. He LIKES it this way, it WORKS for him.<p>My H spent most of his 18 month PA on the fence, 7 separations. He missed me when he left, he missed her when he came home. Even when the PA ended, he came & went a couple more times, but contact had continued--co-workers.<p>Like Orchid, I had to get to the point where I made the choice. I served D papers at 2 years after the PA had started, 18 months after the first separation, a little over a year after D day.<p>He wanted to reconcile, I didn't. But through his efforts, ending the EA contact, accountability, seeing our counselor, started anti-deps, men's Bible study group, Plan A to me...he showed me over a 3-4 month period he was willing to work on our relationship, and we reconciled the 7th time a little over 2 years ago.<p>He's no longer a cakeman, (fence-sitter, in limbo) he's my husband.<p>So, my advice, make sure you've done a good Plan A, it sounds like you have, and be ready to to go Plan B or detach with love or as I did "act as if" divorced, though since I was in the D process, it wasn't so much an act as reality. <p>He will very likely do something soon/this summer that will enable you to detach with surety.<p>Since he does know he wants to stay, doesn't matter the reason, your chance of success is better than if he was sure he didn't want to stay for any reason.

I think there is no such thing as weaning himself from her. Read "love must be tough" by James Dobson and quit being so gentle (Bgentle!)<p>IMHO Draw the line in the sand... and ask him to write a "no contact" letter. If he is unwilling than go to Plan B. ONLY YOU know if you are ready to go that route because it is possible he will leave and never come back...but would'nt that be better than where you two are right now???<p>I'm sorry your hurting. A lot of your hurt may be because you feel powerless. Set some boundaries in your marriage. When does he have time to see OW? He should be accountable for all his time. Don't make it so easy for him to have an A but rather make it easy for him to leave if he chooses. Give him choices. If he wants her than go, if he wants you than he is going to have to be willing to do the hard things. There is NO in between!

Thanks for all of your responses.<p>Orchid, I hear what you are saying, but I just get the feeling that what he is really saying is, "I got myself in this situation, but could you please get me out my making my decision for me??" and I'm just not going to. (for now.) He is a grown-up, let him make a choice.<p>The strange thing is, he IS really here. He is more emotionally present than he was pre-A, and he is more here for the kids, too. He is NOTICING what I do and thanking me, he is initiating affection, I have a better H now in many ways, so most of the time I just think, I'll take this for now and be ready for it to end unexpectedly.<p>I really have detached a lot, if he does go, I can handle it a lot better now than if he had walked out right after Dday.<p>Lor, I think you put it well, I am not ready for plan B, but there are things he could do that would put me there. (like contact with her in the presence of my children, I would move three states away in a heartbeat.) And look at your timing, it took you 2 years, and I haven't even made 1 yet, so I don't feel so retarded now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ILuvNProtectMe: I'm not really a gentle person, I chose that user name to remind me of one of the things I wanted to develop as part of plan A. I have been setting boundaries, just not ready for the big one yet. And I just am not ready for plan B because of the kids. I really am not hurting much for myself anymore, just sad about the marriage and knowing he isn't really making decisions that will make him happy. My happiness no longer depends on whether he stays. (Although if he does go, I think I will feel that I failed.)

Any more advice?

I'd say you are just steps behind me... my d-day was April... your's July... and our stories are very similar.<p>Now, I stirred the pot w/ OW which hurried things along to make her LB and LB good.... I wouldn't recommend that strategy... wish I had stuck w/ the high road...<p>Church? Bible study? If I had to put my finger on what changed my H was that he could not go against how he was raised. He was raised w/ Faith and could not go against the teachings of Christianity.<p>In fact, we went to a WASP church for the first ten years of our relationship/marriage... was only the last 3-5 that we fell away...<p>Now? H confessed his sins and claimed Christ as his savior... I am still stunned as it was in no way pushed by me or even led by me... he came to his own understanding and decision...<p>I don't know where you and your H are on this subject, but I know it made the difference for us.<p>Cali

Cali, thanks for responding. Yes, I read your post here tonight about your H and I'm praying for that miracle too.<p>Back in the agony of August, I would lay on my bed and moan at God, there's a verse about that, that the Holy Spirit will interpret those moans for us. At one point I told God that if this was the path my WH would have to go to get to God, I would be honored to have a part in it, even though it is so painful.<p>Just recently I have really been able to detach. I would still categorize myself in plan A - I take some time each day to think what I could to to fill an EN for him. But I no longer take his actions personally. When he is gone (he works irregular hours), I no longer agonize about where is he is, is he really at work? I am really at the point of no expectations, so I don't agonize. That is not my problem, it is his and he will face God about it eventually.<p>He still goes to church occasionally (we have always gone) but I notice he is careful not to go on communion Sundays. I go with the kids for Sunday School and sometimes he meets us for church.<p>He was baptized as a teenager, but I don't think he ever made Christ the LORD of his life. To get there now, when he is so sure he can control his own life, will take a miracle. But it took a miracle for me too, and Our Lord is in the miracle business, so I am not losing hope.<p>Recently I was freed from feeling that I have to do plan A perfectly or my marriage will be over and it will be my fault. He chose to have an A. Not my fault. And whatever he sees from my plan A is filtered through his fog. So it is better to do my best even if not perfectly, and just pray that his moments of seeing clearly are well-timed [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He was baptized as a teenager, but I don't think he ever made Christ the LORD of his life. To get there now, when he is so sure he can control his own life, will take a miracle. But it took a miracle for me too, and Our Lord is in the miracle business, so I am not losing hope.<hr></blockquote><p>EXACTLY. Pray about it and let God work. WE don't have to DO anything FOR them, only for ourselves.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Recently I was freed from feeling that I have to do plan A perfectly or my marriage will be over and it will be my fault. He chose to have an A. Not my fault. And whatever he sees from my plan A is filtered through his fog. So it is better to do my best even if not perfectly, and just pray that his moments of seeing clearly are well-timed
<hr></blockquote><p>Amen!<p>Good luck, Bgentle. I never saw so much change so fast as when I gave it to God. I am blessed that, even in THICK FOG, H went to church and couldn't resist the Word. (I don't think it hurt that our first Bible study class was on "Revelations!") [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cali

Thanks again, Cali, for your encouragement.