Well, Its been 5.5 weeks since she moved out.
I'm have been trying to plan A as best I can. My MIL is in town visiting WW, and my WW brought her over to my house on WED. My D played on her swingset, and the three of us had a glss of wine, and talked for a bit. They stayed for about a 45 minutes. On their way out, my W started crying, saying she get very emotional being in the house. I hugged her, told her I loved her, and walked her to her car where my D and MIL were waiting.<p>Over the last few weeks, I've seen my WW a few times. I talk to her on the phone almost daily...usually about our D, or finances, stuff like that.
She told me a few weeks ago that she realizes this situation isn't fair to me, and thinks "WE" should pursue a divorce. I replied that if she wants divorce, she'll have to pursue it herself.<p>Since then, most of our conversations have centered around our child. No mention of divorce, the affair, our marriage, nothing. Strangely, She has asked me to continue writing songs with her. She wants me to install her high speed internet for her. <p>I've been thinking that this situation is stagnating. She would like me to install her internet on tuesday, which would require my visit to her apartment. I've strongly been considering handing her my plan B letter when I leave. I dont know what else to do at this point. She always tells me she loves me, and seems to need me occaisionally for emotional support etc....but I've found myself not picking up the phone sometimes when she calls......then I call her back later. I feel like she's trying to destroy my love for her from afar.
I do still love her.....and because of that fact, plan B seems like my best option.
Any advice???????????

Hello maximus,<p>I'm sorry for the pain you are in. I wish I was in as "good" a position as you. At least you are talking to your W. My W came home for 2 nights last week and was "committed" to working on us. She went to work against my wishes (OM is co-worker) and hasn't come home since. <p>I'll pass on the advice I've gotten here at MB. Don't Plan B unless you are in danger of losing your love for your W. As far as I can tell you are in a great position to keep Plan A'ing. <p>She wants you to install her Internet.Great do it. She wants you to keep writing songs. Great do it. Do you know what her EN's are? Do your best to fill them while you are with her. <p>Maybe you can write a special song just for her. Right now I'm trying to write a love letter to my WW. Something to show her that I love her and care for her. If you can do that in a song I think that would be great. <p>Don't forget to work on you. <p>Keep posting. You are not alone. The people here at MB do care. <p>Feeling Lost

<<Don't Plan B unless you are in danger of losing your love for your W.>><p>Thats my problem. When she calls, sometimes I don't answer. I feel like I want her to wonder where I am. I've been trying to be "unavailable" in a subtle way. Is that a sign that I'm losing my love for her? <p><<As far as I can tell you are in a great position to keep Plan A'ing.>><p>I've plan A'd hard since mid January. I've made great changes in myself that even my WW has noticed. However, she still moved out, and the affair continues. She seems to use me for her EN's when it suits her, but I'm kind of feeling like plan A has run its course. <p><<She wants you to install her Internet.Great do it. She wants you to keep writing songs. Great do it. Do you know what her EN's are? Do your best to fill them while you are with her.>><p>I have no problem doing these things for her, except the thought that once these things are done, she still goes to the OM. I guess I'm feeling kind of used. I've also noticed that our young D has been kind of depressed lately, but my WW says she hasn't noticed. Its like she doesn't want to see it...because she'd feel guilt.<p>I'm just so confused right now. One minute, I want to give her the plan B letter, the next minute I don't.
Still trying to sort this out.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Thats my problem. When she calls, sometimes I don't answer. I feel like I want her to wonder where I am. I've been trying to be "unavailable" in a subtle way. Is that a sign that I'm losing my love for her? <hr></blockquote><p>Sounds like you are still in love with your WW. You don't have to answer the phone every time. Just because you are in Plan A doesn't mean you are a doormat. As for signs that you are losing love for your WW. I'll share this bit of wisdom that J.R. gave me:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As for your love bank... I know there were plenty of times I said "I can't take this anymore" and was ready to go to Plan B... But I had to always step back and evaluate what was motivating me... was it just my impatience, or was I REALLY falling out of love for WW... it's only been recently that I've honestly seen that happening... the major signs? Indifference. Apathy. Feeling angry and anxious can sometimes indicate a need to keep in Plan A for a little longer. <hr></blockquote><p>The point: Keep plan A'ing. Sometimes you will feel like a doormat. It's that wonderfull rollercoaster ride we are on.<p>I know that I feel frustrated, and that I want to give up sometimes, but I don't feel indifferent to my WW nor do I experience apathy. All it takes for me is looking at old pictures, and I remember all the good times, all the reasons that I married her, and the reasons I love her. You need to evaluate your situation.<p>Our timelines are remarkably similar. I've been told that I should Plan A for up to a year and a half. That's a long time for sure. And sometimes it doesn't seem worth it. Since I'm alone and my WW is with OM. Heck my family which was supporting my decision to fight for my marriage is beginning to try and "make me see the light" since the last stunt my WW pulled. (She came home for 2 days then left)<p>I'm sorry to hear about your D's depression. I really can't offer any advice about that. Maybe you should start another thread asking for advice about your D's depression. I'm sure somebody here can offer you some advice. <p>Keep posting maximus. I know it's frustrating. I know that it seems hopeless at times. I'm no fountain of wisdom, but I'll keep my eye out for your posts. I'll let you know the few things I've learned. <p>Feeling Lost

<<Sounds like you are still in love with your WW. You don't have to answer the phone every time. Just because you are in Plan A doesn't mean you are a doormat.>><p>I haven't felt like a doormat really, but I've been there for her whenever she's needed me since she moved out. Its hard to swallow because I've needed and wanted her, and she hasn't been there for me. Catch 22 I guess. <p><<Feeling angry and anxious can sometimes indicate a need to keep in Plan A for a little longer. Keep plan A'ing. Sometimes you will feel like a doormat. It's that wonderfull rollercoaster ride we are on.>><p>Thats tough. I've made some great strides in my own life. However, my WW can't see that from afar. I know deep down that I'll survive with or without her, but I want to survive WITH her.<p><<Our timelines are remarkably similar. I've been told that I should Plan A for up to a year and a half. That's a long time for sure. And sometimes it doesn't seem worth it. >><p>That does seem a long time. I'm not sure I'll be able to even go for 6 months. My W suggested divorce a few weeks ago....and truthfully, I've been expecting divorce papers every day since then.<p><<I'm sorry to hear about your D's depression. I really can't offer any advice about that. Maybe you should start another thread asking for advice about your D's depression. I'm sure somebody here can offer you some advice. >><p>Maybe "depression" is not the right word, but she is definately affected by this ordeal. She has been daydreaming alot lately, and been more emotional than normal. The other day, she was throwing toys, and I told her to stop or she'd go to timeout. She then replied that If I put her in timeout, she'd go to her mommy's house and never come back here. Very concerning to say the least.
I was crushed to hear those words come out of her mouth.
Anyways, thanks for the replies, and I sincerely hope your situation is improving for you as well.

Just got off the phone with my WW. I'm suppose to bring my daughter over to WW's house tomorrow...and she asked me if I'd like to stay for dinner. I said sure, and that I'd hook up her cable modem while I'm there. My Plan B letter isn't ready, so, she won't get it tomorrow. Hell, I don't even know if I'm ready for plan B at all.
Maybe, tomorrow will give me an Indication of where this thing is at.
I get butterflies in my stomach when I'm with her..and I'm so afraid of saying the wrong thing and LBing.
God give me strength.

Going over to WW's this afternoon.
Very nervous.<p>Bump--------^

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by maximus:
<strong><< ......
I haven't felt like a doormat really, but I've been there for her whenever she's needed me since she moved out. Its hard to swallow because I've needed and wanted her, and she hasn't been there for me. Catch 22 I guess. <p>
Maybe "depression" is not the right word, but she is definately affected by this ordeal. She has been daydreaming alot lately, and been more emotional than normal. The other day, she was throwing toys, and I told her to stop or she'd go to timeout. She then replied that If I put her in timeout, she'd go to her mommy's house and never come back here. Very concerning to say the least.
I was crushed to hear those words come out of her mouth.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by maximus:
<strong><<
I haven't felt like a doormat really, but I've been there for her whenever she's needed me since she moved out. Its hard to swallow because I've needed and wanted her, and she hasn't been there for me. Catch 22 I guess. <p>
Maybe "depression" is not the right word, but she is definately affected by this ordeal. She has been daydreaming alot lately, and been more emotional than normal. The other day, she was throwing toys, and I told her to stop or she'd go to timeout. She then replied that If I put her in timeout, she'd go to her mommy's house and never come back here. Very concerning to say the least.
I was crushed to hear those words come out of her mouth.
Anyways, thanks for the replies, and I sincerely hope your situation is improving for you as well.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Max,<p>There are 2 points in a partial quote of your above post that I would like to address. Remember this is my opinion only so take it with a grain of salt!<p>In a previous post, you said it was recommended you stay in plan A for 1 1/2 years. Who told you that and why? <p>What is the purpose of planAtaken from the basic concepts section):<p> plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again. <p>Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. {b]While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.{/b] <p>
Plan B also taken from the basic concepts section):
to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. <p>Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. <p>In plan B, those of us with children may have to alter the 'no contact' to limited contact pertaining to specific topics (children, money, mail, etc.) No meeting needs (like hooking up her computer, etc.<p>Amount of time in each plan is not fixed. Nor recommended. There are too many variables in each situation. This is not a 1 remedy method. You need to take the general principals and adapt them to your situation. There are some general things that happen and there have been 'average' times that the A lasts, how long many have been in plan A, etc. But each situation will vary. <p>In regards your little one, you should be very concerned. The WS and OPs of this world would very much like to think that our children our NOT affected by the A. They could not be farther from the truth. Our children ARE affected. Think about this, even if there was no A, your child could still pull that I'm going to go with someone else threat. That is what children do. Now you don't think your child saw this as a perfect opportunity to manipulate you? Of course her little mind did and it will do more. Look at the example she has from your W? So tell your W that she had better pay attention to the example she is setting. And when your W gets mad at that? In a calm but firm manner let her know that any more right now from you is too difficult, it hurts too much to give knowing she is not with your family. <p>JMHO,
L. <p>
L.<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

<<In a previous post, you said it was recommended you stay in plan A for 1 1/2 years. Who told you that and why? >><p>
That wasn't me. FEELINGLOST replied that he'd been advised to plan A for up to 1.5 years.<p><<In regards your little one, you should be very concerned. The WS and OPs of this world would very much like to think that our children our NOT affected by the A. They could not be farther from the truth.>> <p>I am very troubled. As I left my WW's apartment, my little girl cried her eyes out, begged me not to go, and said that she didnt want to stay with mom, that she wanted to come with me.... over and over.
It broke my heart. However, I must admit there was part of me that was glad she said those things in front of my WW..and I'm ashamed of myself for feeling that way.
I called back over there about 10 minutes after I left and could hear my daughter sobbing, and my W told me that my daughter was still looking for me out the window, but "she'll be OK".
I wanted to scream at her that NO, none of this is ok.
However, I kept my composure, and told her it hurt to watch our D get upset like that. I also thanked her for dinner, told her I enjoyed the evening, and that I missed her and loved her.
I'm very torn.
<img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

bump

maximus,<p>Sorry but I haven't been on MB these past few days. I've been down in the dumps. <p>How did it go with your W when you went over? Any positive signs?<p>I'm sorry about your D. I can only begin to imagine how it feels to see your child so upset about her parents situation. <p>I'm not in the greatest place to offer any advice. Right now I feel like I want to throw in the towel. If only because I want the pain to end. <p>Orchid I told maximus that it was suggested to me that I Plan A for a year and a half. Because of my situation. (My WW and I are both BS/WS, no children, etc.) I don't know that I will go that far. I realize that it's just a mark. Each individual persons time in Plan A is different. <p>Keep posting maximus. I will read your posts.

A couple of things about your daughter. My H and I have a young son as well and during our year seperation many of the things you describe happend with him as well. NEVER take personally anything that comes out of their mouths (like when she said she'd go live with mommy). It's a TERRIBLE thing that she's already learning to play the situation, but she is. We just never played into those games and pretty much ignored those comments. Our son actually pulled that when we got back together too. He'd ask to go live at mommy's house when daddy wasn't sharing the TV.<p>It is good that wife also sees how much your D cares for you. Don't be ashamed for feeling glad that daughter is showing her some of the consequences of what she's doing. Don't think it isn't getting through...it is. It may or may not help your situation.<p>Stay strong and take one day at a time. Be the best Dad you can be for your D and take joy in that. Our son was the one beacon of light in our 2 years of near darkness, and in the end our joy with him led to reconcilliation and renewed respect for each other. Take care.

<<<NEVER take personally anything that comes out of their mouths (like when she said she'd go live with mommy). It's a TERRIBLE thing that she's already learning to play the situation, but she is.>>><p>I try to not take those things personally, and I don't. Its just hard walk away from her as I'm sure you know.<p><<<It is good that wife also sees how much your D cares for you. Don't be ashamed for feeling glad that daughter is showing her some of the consequences of what she's doing. Don't think it isn't getting through...it is. It may or may not help your situation.>>><p>I should rephrase my feelings on that. I wasn't glad my daughter got upset like that, but since it happened, I'm glad it happened in front of my wife. She's been telling me that D "seems fine" through all this. I told her thats not true and that she just doesn't want to see it. Now, she's seen it first hand, at its worst. Hopefully the experience will show her some of the reality that has resulted from her affair.<p><<<Stay strong and take one day at a time. Be the best Dad you can be for your D and take joy in that.>>><p>Thats my focus right now....and I'm glad to say that my D and I are closer than ever.
Thanks for the input.

<<Sorry but I haven't been on MB these past few days. I've been down in the dumps.>><p>Sorry to hear that f.l.
<p><<How did it go with your W when you went over? Any positive signs?>><p>Well, I got her PC all fixed up, we had a nice dinner, and spent some good time together. We talked about everything except "us".
No mention of affair, marriage, future.
I was in her bedroom (where the pc is) and looked at her bed...and had all I could do not to envision OM there with her. Very hard to say the least. But, the evening went well, until I had to go when my D got upset. I really couldn't say I saw any positive signs, but nothing negative either. Its tough because the lack of anything positive seems like a negative in itself.<p><<<<I'm not in the greatest place to offer any advice. Right now I feel like I want to throw in the towel. If only because I want the pain to end. >>>><p>I go through periods like that as well. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Like why should I go through all this pain for someone who inflicted it on me in the first place?
Its a question I'll probobly never fully know the answer to.
All I know, is that I love my wife dearly, and I want our family to be whole again.
Years ago, I once told my wife (girlfriend at the time) that if she ever cheated on me, it would be the last time cause I'd leave her.
Now that its happened, I won't just let go. I'd have never imagined that I'd be fighting to win her back after something like this.
Go figure?????
Why do we do it????????????????????????????

Just a though about not wanting to answer the phone all of time...<p>I have the same feelings from time to time and have not answered the phone. This is not always a bad thing. In my case I just needed to the time relax myself and play with my daughter. Only you know when you have the stength to talk at a particular moment. It is far better to call back later when you have more composure and can control the LBs. I would say that there is nothing wrong with this as long as it is not being used against you W.

maximus,<p>Glad to hear that you and your D are closer than ever. At least she has the love and support of one fogless parent. I truely hope that your WW will realize the pain she is causing if only for your D's sake. You could work on building the M from there.<p>I'm feeling a bit better now. I started on the love letter for my W again. It's actually making me feel better now. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Years ago, I once told my wife (girlfriend at the time) that if she ever cheated on me, it would be the last time cause I'd leave her.
<hr></blockquote>
Funny my WW and I both told each other the same thing. Now we've both gone and done it. (She still is doing it) All I want to do is atone for my mistake and work on building a healthier, happier M. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I was in her bedroom (where the pc is) and looked at her bed...and had all I could do not to envision OM there with her. <hr></blockquote>
OUCH! I don't know if I could handle that. When my WW came home she told me about this wonderful new bed she had pruchased for her apartment. She wanted us to switch out our bed. (which we bought 2 years ago) for this new bed. At first I was sure anything, when do I go and pick it up and bring it here. Then I realized that I would never be able to touch that bed, much less sleep on it. Well I haven't had to tell her she can't keep the bed since she left again.<p>Like you I sometimes wonder why the heck I go through this. I guess the old saying about not knowing what you lost until you've lost it is so very true. <p>Feeling Lost

<<<<onwardandup
Just a though about not wanting to answer the phone all of time...
I have the same feelings from time to time and have not answered the phone. This is not always a bad thing. In my case I just needed to the time relax myself and play with my daughter. Only you know when you have the stength to talk at a particular moment. It is far better to call back later when you have more composure and can control the LBs. I would say that there is nothing wrong with this as long as it is not being used against you W. >>><p>Thats just it. My reason for not picking up the phone is because I don't want to be "available"
all the time. I want her to wonder where I am and what I'm doing. I dont do this often, but from time to time, I just let her leave a message, and call her back later.