I am not quite sure what to think about this. I was in my brother's wedding yesterday, and my WW attended. Somehow we got on the discussion this morning of marriage vows. She said she broke the most sacred vow of them all and is very guilty and very ashamed. (fog lifting?)<p>Yesterday before the wedding we went out with one of her girl friends. A month ago, my WW confided in her friend about her EA/PA and that she was not ready to give OM the boot (to date, she still has not wanted to agree to no-contact). Her friends H told her friend that he no longer respected her. Her friend's H treated her poorly, ignored WW and was rude to WW. She was upset about how her friend allowed this to happen and chimed allong with her husband. I told her that these times shows who your friends really are because friends will love you for who you are and not be judgmental. Friends like me will stay by yourside and accept you regardless of what you do (unconditional love). <p>The point of this story was that she said that she feels that as long as we are together, she will feel guilty and feel judged by everyone. I told her that very little people know. Our family does not know, just a couple of my closest friends and they are not judgemental of her and treat her very well (considering). She saids that she feels that she needs to leave me to get away from her guilt and shame. I told her that this will only make her guilt and shame worse because she will hurt the boys by this. I told her (paraprased) that she needs to deal with all of this inside in order to feel better, and to forgive herself because I have and God has. She has not taken any of this to God because she feels ashamed and guilty. I told her that is the main reason to go to God. After asking her why she wanted to stay if she feels like she wants to leave. She said she does want to make us work, and we get along well together.<p>She also said that she is afraid that she will never want to be intimate with me again. I told her that since her emotions are directly attached to intimacy, it is natural and expected for her to feel this way because she has very little feelings for me.<p>She has so many negatives. It is hard to stay positive and hard to keep from being hurt from all of her negative feelings. If I think about all of this I know I will start weeping again. There I go, my heart aches now. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>Well, she is seeing and talking to OM less and less. I think the last time she saw him was two weeks ago? She is being more affectionate to me. She is wanting to hold my hand, and she is wanting to cuddle in bed. She is talking to me much more and confiding in me her feelings. I still think that this is very positive and not as negative and impossible as my beautiful WW seems to think. <p>Maybe I have lost my mind?! Maybe I am in a dreamland again and I am only seeing things the way I want to see them. (Anyone seen Vanilla Sky?) Maybe she is right. Maybe there is no hope. Her friends think I am nuts and should leave her. Even in the midst of my pain, I love her so deeply. Even when my love bank is entirely empty, I still love her. I guess I am nuts. Please help??? <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey dreamland....good news! You are in fact nuts! So there's no reason to worry about mucking around with all this other stuff...cause you'll be checking in to a padded cell soon anyway. Just joking of course...hoping to give you a chuckle.<p>I remember those times...where I was SURE that things would never be good again. And I have indeed lost some friends due to my actions. But for the most part I was able to mend the most important fences. It takes TIME, it takes PATIENCE, and it takes PROOF in action. By that I mean she will have to take it slow with people who do know. I had to prove myself trustworthy, reliable, stable, honest, caring....all over again, both to my H and to my friends. Because the person I was during the A had none of those characteristics.<p>She's doing a guilt transferrance thing. She thinks that by dumping this relationship and starting over she'll can move past her guilt easier and have a better chance at a new life. She's wrong. The guilt will follow her. Especially with your boys.<p>It's extremely important that you try not to take personal all the crap that comes out of her mouth right now. She's confused and in need of emotional maturing. Given time I think she will forgive herself and then can concentrate on your forgiveness.<p>Is she seeing a counselor at all? It does sound like she's peeking out from the fog. Just don't get your hopes too high. Expectations, more often than not, lead to disappointment. Continue to work on yourself and be strong near her. It will make her feel more emotionally safe around you.<p>Take care.<p>[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: hope4future ]</p>

Hi Dreamland.<p>Your latest update is a good sign because it shows that she feels guilty for breaking her vows and hurting you and the kids.<p>I would like to suggest that the next time she talks about leaving because she feels that people will never forgive her, you might want to add that the only people whose opinion should matter to her are you and your boys, and that leaving is nothing more than running away from her problems very much like she did when she had her EA/PA. Also let her know that she is not the only person in the world to screw up big time and point her towards the forum because she will find a lot of people that can support her efforts in doing the right thing.<p>Your plan A seems to be flawless. Keep up the good work and have faith in God.<p>Keep us posted.<p>Joe

dreamland,
you are not crazy for wanting to keep your marriage together or for loving your wife inspite of all that she has done. You truly know what the meaning of forgiveness is from God's standards. The hardest things will be for your WW to forgive herself and to bring all that guilt and shame she is feeling to God. Our adversity, the devil, knows just where to strike us when we are down and most vulnerable. You will need every ounce of strenght that God can give to help her thru this. Stay firm in the Word. Read Hosea and how God helped him with his WW. Stay in close contact with friends who view things from God's perspective and who will hold you up in prayer constantly, who understand how you can still love her. God will give you the strength to handle whatever is thrown your way. It is those arrows of the devil's that will slip in the cracks and usually from well meaning friends that will cause you to doubt yourself.
Let your WW know you pray for her, that she will find that happiness she is looking for. Let her know that you pray for God to guide her and lead her in the direction the will be best for her. And most of all do it. God will give you whatever you need to handle each situation.
Sounds like you are doing a good job already, hang in there.
my prayers are with you,
Debbie

dreamland.
sounds like progress to me.
Your wife's guilt and shame won't go away by running away and starting a "new life". She has to deal with it here and now, take it to God and then hold her head up high that she has turned it over, and is doing the work required of her to heal, to help you heal, and cease all contact with om.<p>As far as her friend and her friend's husband not supporting her, her friend has no control over her husband. <p>She is experiencing fallout and its part of the consequences. What she does with it is what count

Dreamland - a big ditto to h4f. An excellent response along with the others. I can't add any thing.<p>But one thing you said caught my attention:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Friends like me will stay by yourside and accept you regardless of what you do (unconditional love).</strong><hr></blockquote><p>IMHO, unconditional love is reserved for blood relatives and children. Love between everyone else is conditional upon meeting emotional needs. I'll bet you wife loved you very much and will love you again. Obviously, in between, her love for you was not unconditional. Similarly, her former friends and you cannot hold out forever. Your love will fade, given enough time and love bank withdrawals. As the others have stated, she needs to restore trust with you and everyone else who knows and who was close to her. With this, the love will follow, but it will remain conditional, if not more so.<p>Just MHO.<p>WAT

Hi dreamland,
It all sounds good to me, although again, difficult for you to go through. But you have been so strong for your wife - every day that you are patient with her demonstrates in action how strong you are and how steady you are for her. She's like a ship without a rudder right now, and you are like her rudder - trying to point her in the right direction.<p>IMO, all those little signs are so good - cuddling in bed and wanting to hold your hand - she's reaching out to you and needing your touch in a non-sexual way - in order for her to feel like really wanting sex with you again, I think all this non-sexual touching has to come first - it's like taming a wild animal - calming her down and making her feel safe again.<p>As to the way she is opening up and talking now - I think this is also a v good sign - although it's hard for you to just listen and not feel bad about what she has to say - try to look at it this way - what she has to say is no reflection on you at all and you need to try not to take any of it personally, just say "Uh, huh" and "yeah?" and let her talk some more.<p>Just like in the Mars and Venus books, she needs to talk in order to work through her feelings - the greatest gift you can give a woman is to make it safe for her to talk to you, without being judgemental about her feelings - making her wrong, or trying to fix it. She may talk and talk, and she won't necessarily end up where she started out at - women talk and think at the same time. So her talking is going to take her somewhere - and every time she talks to you and feels safe about it, and every time you let her know she is forgiven and safe with you, she will probably feel relieved and a whole lot better about you.<p>That's my guess.<p>Saying a prayer for you,
You're an inspiration.
Odile

Your wife might be surprised at how forgiving people will be if she'll start doing the right thing toward you and your boys. As long as she's riding the fence, people will be judgmental. Why? Because she's not asking for forgiveness by her actions. When others see her behaving repentantly, maturing emotionally, moving past her mistakes, etc., and when they see you happy, you forgiving, you content, THEY WILL JUMP ON THE BANDWAGON. They will forget it, push it from their minds LONG before the 2 of you will!! Believe me, I've been there. It will be harder for some of them to be nonjudgemental than others because some people are just naturally more self-righteous than others. But the first time they stumble (and they will), their hard feelings for her will dissolve. <p>Keep your chin up. It sounds like you are at least headed for a new plateau. That doesn't mean there won't be other valleys, but learn to enjoy the mountaintops. They make the valleys bearable. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks for all the support. I am not sure where I would be without the wonderful people at this forum. <p>It hurts so bad to open up myself to her. Some of the time I want to pack my bags and leave, some of the time I want to hold her tight so that she will feel the love in my heart and it will touch her heart and she will love me again, and some of the time I feel terrific, but most of the time I feel very sad and alone.<p>She can be so very insensitive. Before, I used to gloss over this, but now I see it more than ever. She does not appear to care about me, and it is been so long that I do not know if she has ever cared. My 30th birthday came and went in December during the PA/EA without even a party. That hurt so bad. All my friends had great parties. She did the minimum, and it seems that that is the usual.<p>When we sit down to eat with friends and family, she never tries to sit down next to me. She was like this before the EA/PA. I have told her that this hurts my feelings, and she ignores me anyway.<p>I have always wanted to spend all my time with her, and she manages to find other things to do to not be around me. Once again, I can not remember if she was always like this or not. <p>I am thinking now that maybe she never has loved me. Maybe her true love is the OM. Maybe she does not know how to love. (Her family is screwed up big time. Her Mom never paid any attention to her, her parents are divorced, and her father was an abusive alcoholic.)<p>She rarely has done anything special for me. I always thought that maybe she would learn how to love by the way I love her. This has never happened.<p>I think now I just have become a good father for her, a good maid, and a helpfull roommate. Maybe that is all I ever was and will be to her. I am terribly lonely, sad, depressed, and I feel like a ghost. <p>Should I try to work everything out? Should I try to continue Plan A? Why should I spend all of this time and effort if she will not try to be want I want in a wife and be sensitive to my needs? I am asking for too much? Should a wife fill all of my needs? When I have talked to her about this in the past, It always seems that she turns all of this around and makes me feel guilty for my feelings.<p>She will not go to MC, she will not read the SAA or fill out the EN questionare even if I tell her that it is very important to me. I think if I show her my EN questionare, it will be a major LB. So I guess I will have to wait.<p>I am not sure what to do, or how much longer my heart can take this. I need to be loved. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

"I am thinking now that maybe she never has loved me. Maybe her true love is the OM. Maybe she does not know how to love. (Her family is screwed up big time. Her Mom never paid any attention to her, her parents are divorced, and her father was an abusive alcoholic.)"<p>Sometimes we need to stop dreaming and face reality.
Only then can we move on and find happiness.

I noticed you have a 4 month old. (or did). Any chance she suffering from post-partum depression? My SIL had post-partum at about the 6 mo. mark with each of her boys.<p>And, if she can't find love with you, she'll never find it with anyone else either. She probably has issues she needs to address, and if she doesn't, her behavior will repeat itself until her walk on this earth is over.<p>I'm sorry you feel unloved. I can sympathize although the actions of my WS have been totally opposite of your WS's. Instead of focusing on the one person who's not showing you much love right now, focus on those that are - your family, your kids, your friends, your God. When I get down, it usually takes me getting further down (on my knees in prayer) to finally come up again.<p>My prayers are with you.

Dreamland - <p>I am getting affection and positive signs from my WW but she is so closed about the A. I don't know which of us is the better/worse position. I would be elated if my WW showed any signs of remorse about the EA/PA.<p>So here I am with an affectionate WW that is still in contact with the OM. All I can think of is that she is playing me. She is just trying to be nice to me to get in a better position when the other shoe falls. <p>I think that no matter what is happening, we all find a way the drive ourselves crazy trying to understand. The bottom line is that we can't understand and may never. Keep posting and those people that have seen more than us can help with the interpretation. <p>At least from my point of view there are some positive signs. Yes, you may be hurt some more, but that comes with the territory. If we were not willing to sacrifice for our wives, marriages, and children we would not be the people we are. I know it is difficult but I for one can tell you that you are doing the right thing. In the end no matter what happens you will have no regrets and be a better person.