<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

First off .... how did the IVP go? Hope your kidneys are 100% healthy!<p>WS"Have the bereavement counselors called you with an appt yet?"<p>He is trying to attend to your needs indirectly. He at least recognizes you are hurting and expresses concern. He wants you to be OK but he wants you to be OK without his direct involvement. (He may be incapable of actually helping you at this time without LB-ing ... which he later demonstrated to you with his silly anger over nothing)<p>O"What would really help me would be if I could talk to you"<p>I LOVE this approach! Not a selfish demand. Really a clear statement of your needs in response to his question . Also ... a compliment to your H , informing him of his importance in your life (one that flew over his head and he did not see through the fog)<p>O"It's you I need to talk to, because you are the expert on you."<p>WS response --->" [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] "<p>Interpreting what eyerolling means---> "Don't count on me being an expert on me ... I am so 'effin confused, you would not believe it!"<p>O"It's you I care about. Otherwise I wouldn't be here."<p>He only heard what his conscious allowed him to hear ... the second half of your statement. If he consciously recognizes how much you love him (first part of your statement) he feels awful. He unconsciously recognizes how much you love him, and this makes him feels like a world-class heel ... hence the anger ... which he rationalized as anger at you being disrespectful of your son.<p>My comment to you Miss O .... nice work at not LB-ing. Is your tongue bloody from biting on it so strongly? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Miss O ... WH is incapable of being in two places at the same time. (Aren't we all?) Please consider him to be ill, sick with fever. You would never ask him to perform at top level if he were sick with fever. In your mind, pretend he is sick ... and when his responses sting, or his angery outbursts are totally out of proportion to the context of the situation, visualize him in bed, sick with fever, and do not take his remarks any more personally than you would if he were physically ill. That pretending will save YOU from being hurt by his stupidity.<p>He really does care about you and family. He is majorly torn up inside about hurting you, seeing himself as the "bad guy" is very, very difficult for him. The nicer you are, the worse he looks to himself.<p>You avoided the "teaching voice" wanting to tell WH what he needs to do ... WOW! I am impressed! <p>Go treat yourself ... after the X-ray. See a flick. Go window-shopping. Do your hair. Buy thong underwear. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>(((Odile )))<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

P.S. Think the kidneys are OK. Also got results of mammogram back last week - boobs are fine, too!
[img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Odile

LOL...yea, I hear that thong underwear offers a minimizing effect.....surely that will work on any part of the body, yes? Or would it require you wear it on your head? Hmmm...now THAT'D get his attention.<p>You definatly gave him lots to chew on, but everything you said was fair and true...no LB's. Way to go!!<p>Hopefully the leaving of the OW will help progress! Good luck with your xray!

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] H4F and Miss O ~~~~<p>When Mr. Pepper and I were in the early recovery stages ... in my wild-n-crazy-BS-mind I was competing with OW in the bedroom. (a common recovery phenomenon) I felt my image needed a make-over ....So ... <p>I took a trip to *Fredericks of Hollywood* (famous trashy lingerie store actually IN Hollywood ... building is painted a vibrant purple color ... and is very popular with the gay community!). I purchased the raunchiest red-lace-crotchless panties I could find. Truely ugly.<p>Mr. Pepper was shocked! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I considered also purchasing a whip and handcuffs to finish off my ensemble.... but ... I felt pretty stupid just with those crotchless jobbers ....<p>OK .... I'll stop now..... I was just remembering how nutz I became ..... you'd think I was auditioning for the circus! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

OMG...thanks for THAT image!! LOL!!!<p>You can order Fredericks online....I mean...that's what I hear [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Well, I came to this thread because I'm all over the "shooting the elephant"...didn't expect to see a reference to my case.<p>O, I think we're in very similar circumstances, but there are a couple of differences, and perhaps we can share and help each other.<p>On my side, my WW has agreed to joint MCing several times; but every time we touch on "the" subject, she's bailed out. Have a joint session with Steve tomorrow, so we'll see.
The way I see this is that she is trying, but still feels the subject of the A is NOT important to the rebuilding, she just does not see that yet, so in that sense I think she's where your WS is at.<p>On the other hand, I have NEVER had a conversation with her quite as good as the one you describe in this post. I've tried several times, but it somehow always collapses into a fight. Anything that even mentions the A, or OM just degenerates. So I think in that sense, you've made some very valuable progress. I have to keep trying, and I'll probably borrow part of your script.<p>You may want to think about the approach Steve suggested I use to get my W to a session with him, and now to joint MCing: "Steve is helping me become a better husband; and he'd like to get your perspective on things so he can help me better". That got her to talk to him, and he purposely stayed away from any discussion of the A, and he said he's going to keep it that way for a little while, so she can have the chance to learn a bit more, and eventually realize why it is critical to address it. This could be an approach for you...<p>This does show that the "Harley Process" is flexible, and it should "bend" to accomodate special circumstances. It'll be hard for me to ignore the A for a while, but I will try to do that and give her the time she needs to come out of the fog enough to be able to address it.<p>I should add two things: There is no sign that I see of the fog lifting, BUT, there clearly are several displays of caring for you and the M in his responses. And that is good. Pretty much what I see from my W.<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by odile:
<strong>...Spacecase - I do appreciate your responses - yes, I think our S's are very similar in where they are at right now - and yes, I think what my H is dodging right and left now is ANY attempt to discuss his EAs (2 in 18 mos) - so maybe one thing I could have done better was make it clear I didn't need to talk about the A RIGHT NOW - but I do need to talk about us (at least to start with). The truth is, I DO need to talk about the A - not the gory details, necessarily, but why and how, so we can identify his weaknesses and help put in place ways to prevent it happening again - I hope we are someday able to do this.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I think this is right. 3 things I've learned: 1. Baby Steps-we need to break things down into minute steps. Ending the A is not one step, it's 20, 30, 50 small steps. Painful, but true. This has been VERY hard for me.<p>2. Concentrate on the things that will bring Positive forward movement. Yes, eventually you'd like to know more details of the A, more of the whys, hows, whens; but is it necessary now? I don't think so. Concentrate on taking steps to have it end first, work on more information later. You'll need that information after the A has ended, and you are ready to recover; THEN you'll need the whats and whys so you can change the relationship for the future.<p>3. First things first; same answer: the first thing that needs to happen is for you to work on you and begin to detach from your H. Once you can begin to show that you are willing to move on, that your boundaries are set and firm, then positive things might start happening with WH. Not before. And the next step after that is for the A to end. Take it slow, and take it in small, achievable steps.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It's really encouraging to hear you say you think this was a good conversation - to me, it was practically nothing - but I didn't LB! So I felt so much better all day - I didn't worry about what he was feeling, I just kinda let it go.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Of course it was a good conversation; you set some boundaries, you let him know this is not something he can just sweep under the rug, and you let him know that this is clear in your mind; no compromise. You also let him know this is something that needs to be talked about; maybe not right now, but sometime soon. You also showed you understand and you care by letting him know you're giving him the time he needs to get his head together.<p>All of that is positive; it shows him you care, and understand. That's good. He'll have to think about that and stopping to think tends to lift the fog some. He might think something like "How can she still love and care for me when I did this to her? I thought she was a B----" (Or whatever other bad thoughts he's used in the past to justify the A to himself)
And it also shows you are determined and clear-headed about what needs to happen, so that's also good.[/QB][/QUOTE]<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And I made sure this afternoon when he came home, that I looked nice, and I put some of his favorite music on so he'd think I have such good taste (LOL) and met him with a smile - and he was happy when he came home - and I made him a cup of tea and a slice of cake (teatime UK-style) which always makes an Englishman feel loved!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good, good! This is something he probably did not expect, so it'll make him think; and it reinforces that you care. Both good!<p>O, you're doing good! In many ways better than me.

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Bumping myself up now that America is online!

Hey O!<p>Glad to hear things are moving along...believe me, I know how painful it is to see the slow pace, but seeing it that way sure makes it less frustrating, doesn't it?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Take care, everybody - chins up - Spacecase, hang in there - I'll go back and read all your thread. OK? <hr></blockquote><p>You don't need to read the whole thread...it's a monster...! But I would like your impressions!

LA girl! What the heck ya doin' living in all that moistness across the pond? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] My sister married a Brit ... and she lived in N. Birmingham 10 years or so. They had the most beautiful and unique home. It was nearly 500 years old (parts of it not the entire home, which was huge) The home had a formal name. I always wanted to live in a home with a name. "The Cottage at Mustow Green" I think it was. The doorway to the "snug" (a den) was very tiny ... because the population were generally shorter than we are now. Even I had to duck my head entering the snug, and I'm not very tall. The walls of the old part of the home were more than two feet thick and constructed with hay in the middle of the walls. Fortunately for my sis, her H is wealthy, and she had every modern doo-hicky she could get installed when they remodeled the kitchen and baths. The appliances looked old, but were top of the line modern in efficiency. (Nice to be wealthy I guess!) They had an enormous snooker table ... so they had a room built just for the snooker table! It was fabulous with large bay windows with seats built in .... interesting beams and old-looking plastering applied so that it looked as old as the rest of the home.<p>I digress......<p>"Baby steps" will test your patience and your resolve. The steps will not only be tiny and slow... but will not be sequential or linear ... (remember watching a baby learning to walk? They propel themselves forward with no real control or direction!) Baby steps include falling, crying, injuries, and a gradual increase in speed and confidence.<p>Make a journal recording baby steps of recovery. It helps to recognize small steps of progress by journaling.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <--- sunny California shades!

Odile:<p>Just in case someone else hasn't suggested this (I haven't read the replies so far), be sure and post some of your H's comments to one of the "fog statements" threads. These are right up there.<p>Your H's anger is a sure sign you are right when you're concerned he may still be in contact and hoping to stay in contact with OW.<p>persevere!

Odile -- I just wanted you to know that your posts help me tremendously. I feel less alone and see the baby steps. It gives me some patience. <p>That plus the laughs from Pepperband about the underwear.

Odile:<p>Now I've read the replies. And I don't think I need to add anything, just another vote that you're doing well!<p>Good for you!

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Thanks O,<p>BTW, I'm an aspiring cricket fan; work with a lot of Indians and they are trying to teach me, as I try to teach them baseball! Kind of a lost cause, by golly! ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Spacecase - I'm thinking about your "case" - I have got through the first 3, and last 3 pages - yes, it's long, but you are working so hard at trying to figure it all out, and cope with the "secret life" - I know this feeling - I think what has helped me a lot, like you, is to stop snooping for awhile and try to concentrate on my own life, because I could easily lose myself in trying to "fix" the problem of my M, and my H's problems. <hr></blockquote><p>Indeed; I came to the point where I knew pretty much all I needed, and more than enough to drive me nuts! I realized it hurt me and it was getting me nowhere, so I almost stopped. Now I'm getting info from other sources, and it's more accurate and less painful so that way I can keep track of things a bit.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It's hard to go out into the world and try to get on your feet again when behind the front door of your house, things are not well - I know this has affected us a lot - some of my friends know, and I'm sure he has told some of his friends, and this past year, we have just about stopped socializing in the way we used to - having people over, cooking meals for our friends - and our friends don't invite us either - we just can't do that anymore - I think we both know we would be lying to our friends if we pretended that we were a happy couple. <hr></blockquote><p>Isn't it amazing how this happens?!?! as soon as people sense something's wrong, they run like rabbits! Our social life in that sense has ground to a halt...shows you who your friends really are!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But I thank God for my part-time job - it gives me a daily routine and quiet time, and keeps me sane. When I am there, it reminds me that I also still have personal goals - things I wanted to do with myself and my life before my emotional world crumbled around me - now I'm at the point where I don't want to go back to the old marriage, and I still have goals in my own life, so I really need to try to move forward towards those goals regardless of where he is emotionally. <hr></blockquote><p>This is very true...I just had the misfortune of having it all come crumbling down at the same time. On the other hand, had I not lost my job, I might still be a BS without even knowing it!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I wonder, Spacecase, how you are doing on the job search - I think this thing has really "knocked you for six" as they say here in the UK - which is a cricket term, meaning you hit it so hard, its out of the park - you are still just trying to come up for air personally - I think if you could try to start getting a handle on your own personal goals again, that would help you. I'm still thinking, but I have to go to bed now - it's late here!<p> <hr></blockquote><p>Well, things are really slow; very little out there in my field, and I don't want another full-time travel job. Doing odd and ends here and there, but nothing really serious. And Houston in particular has been very hard hit; First Continental Airlines after Sept. 11, then Enron, now Compaq bought up by HP, and Dynegy and the rest of the energy traders are going down the tubes...major, major layoffs everywhere and very few jobs to be had...I have many, many friends out of work.<p>Take care, and thanks again!