i think some of the newcomers may need to hear this. what led you to forgive and how did you know you were ready to forgive?<p>for me, i knew he wasnt totally at fault for the problems in our marriage from the start. and even before i found mb i took full responsibility for my part in destroying our marriage. now that doesnt mean he is not responsible for his bad choices, he is 100% responsible for that. he knows that now. we have come a long way.<p>i wanted to give my husband my forgiveness as a "gift". i just could never do it. i couldnt figure out why, or what was stopping me. i wasnt angry, or harbouring bad feelings, so why couldn't i give him my forgiveness. i finally figured it out-its not about him for me, it was about me. me being in a place that i felt confident enough in me to let it all go. i guess im there now. it seems so clear to me now, but it took me awhile to get here.<p>so all, lets tell our stories of forgiveness and give the newbies hope. if you havent gotten to forgiveness yet-dont feel bad, post about it and maybe we can help.

Hi Nikko,<p>well this is for sure interesting. On D-D I told my H right away that I forgave him. I had to correct that after awhile. It wasn't true......<p>It takes more, alot more than just spoken words. This I have found out. There are times I think I've forgiven but deep inside I know I just haven't, not completely. <p>For me forgiving seems to be coming in steps. I don't know if this is really forgiving. The more I trust him the more I feel that I am forgiving him for what he did.<p>He had once told me the complete story and showed me the places he and OW had met. He answered all questions and didn't leave any details out. I at least knew what there was to forgive, but gosh this is tremendously hard. <p>I have learned to cope with what happened, my feelings are getting better and better. <p> I don't see the monster in him anymore, I see the man he has turned to. I hardly feel a grudge against him anymore for what he did, I have learned to except that no one is perfect.
I have learned that everybody deserves a chance when they have made a mistake. <p>It might just take a little while for me to tell him that I have truely forgiven him. I just want to take my time and really be sure. <p>I know I'm heading for complete forgiveness. I'm looking forward to the day I can tell him that I have forgiven him completely, it's going to be an absolutely special day and I don't want him to ever forget this day.<p>It surely isn't going to take very long anymore, my "heart" is telling me good things. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>hugs
BB<p>[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</p>

nikko,
I totally agrre with you on it is not about him or her thing. It needs to come from yourself. It was in many ways my fault in not doing this that lead us down this road again for the third time. It must be emphasized here that this issue (forgiveness) must be dealt with or the A situation has a very good chance of reoccurring again.
At the same time I must also stress that there is a lot that a WS can do to ease this obstuctle for the BS. My WS has pretended that her As really never happened and that has laid the groundwork for me not being able to forgive her. A simple apology would have gone miles (or kilometers) in easing this struggle in me.<p>My only advice to you newbies is NOT to sweep this issue under the rug; it will come back and bite you in the B*tt...<p>Just some thoughts.<p>Sweden

OMG!
Forgiveness, for me, has a different twist from the direction of this thread, nevertheless, I will share it in hopes that it might help someone else out there in my (former OW) shoes...<p>I have had to forgive myself time and again for my thoughtless and promiscuous behavior because not only did I hurt myself, I hurt innocent people and children.<p>I have had to forgive myself for causing pain in BS's life and MM's family--his children--although, I'm pretty sure his kids never knew about me or the OC. It is due to my involvement with their father that their mom probably cried a lot or was depressed around them... <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> I'm almost positive (from what I have learned here), that her sadness affected their kids a great deal. <p>I have had to forgive myself for the prideful attitude thinking I could raise the OC by myself with no CS from MM... & I simply will never have any idea of how it felt for BS to watch money leave their family finances month after month after month... *sigh*<p>I can't speak for my H, but personally, I know how to protect myself from my own weaknesses and that's how I'm taking responsibility to avoid future infidelity.

This is one of the best series of passages on Forgiveness I have read. Thought I'd share it with the board:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Forgiveness
From “After the Affair” – Janis Abrahms Spring, PhD
Learning to forgive p. 238 (Excerpts)<p>If your goal is reconciliation, forgiveness requires restitution. Forgiveness is a two-person process; you can’t forgive those who refuse to acknowledge and redress the harm they’ve caused you-you certainly can’t have a vital, intimate relationship with them.<p>“True forgiveness cannot be granted until the perpetrator has sought and earned it through confession, repentance, and restitution.” - Judith Lewis Herman<p>A partner who wants to be physically and psychologically connected to you must work to win forgiveness through specific concrete behaviors. Unearned forgiveness, like unrequited love, reinforces the assumption that it’s your job alone to stay attached, that your partner doesn’t need to share the burden of recovery. If you have even a shred of self-esteem, you’re likely to find this a dysfunctional notion.<p>“While reconciliation may be a desirable outcome, psychologically, forgiveness has to be earned. To forgive people who do not acknowledge the injury, or even worse, rationalize their injurious behavior as having been deserved (or justified), is to sustain the injury all over again.” Robert Lovinger (Clinical Psychologist) in “Religion and Counseling”<p>The truth is, however, that you, the hurt partner, won’t ever forget how you’ve been deceived, whether you forgive or not. Years later, you’ll still be able to recall the exact moment of the revelation, and all the gory details of the affair. You, the unfaithful one, are likely to want your partner to forgive and forget so that you can move on to a peaceful reconciliation, but you can’t rush the process. If you don’t attend to the damage you’ve caused, your partner probably will. <p>When you forgive, you don’t forget how you’ve been wronged, but you do allow yourself to stop dwelling on it. Your hurtful memories are likely to stay alive, but relegated to a corner of your mind. You continue to see the damage, but only as part of a picture that includes the loving times as well-the ones that remind you why you’ve chosen to stay together. The past may continue to sting, but it’s also likely to teach come important lessons and inspire you to do better.<p>Forgiving, in short, entails conscious forgetting, which Jungian analyst Clarissa Pinkola Estes describes as “refusing to summon up the fiery material…willfully dropping the practice of obsessing…, thereby living in a new landscape, creating anew life and new experiences to think about instead of the old ones.”<p>Unearned forgiveness is pseudo forgiveness. It’s something you grant, not because your partner deserves it, but because you feel pressured to, either by others or by romantic moralistic assumptions about what forgiveness means. Given rashly or prematurely, it buries the pain alive, and robs you and your partner of the chance to confront the lessons of the affair and properly redress each other’s wounds.<p>It is commonly assumed that forgiveness is not just a gift to your partner, but a gift to yourself, in service of your best self, and that it imbues you, the forgiver, with a sense of well-being, of psychological and physical health. By forgiving “you set a prisoner free, but you discover the real prisoner was yourself”.<p>The idea that forgiveness is categorically good for you is popular both with the general public and with professionals, but it hasn’t held up under study. In fact, it has been shown in some cases to be anti-therapeutic, spawning feelings of low self-worth in the person who forgives.
“A too ready tendency to forgive may be a sign that one lacks self-respect, and conveys-emotionally-either that we do not think we have rights or that we do not take our rights very seriously,” writes Jeffrie Murphy in “Forgiveness and resentment”. Murphy goes on to point out that a willingness to be a doormat for others reveals not love or friendship, but what psychiatrist Karen Horney calls “morbid dependency.” My own clinical experience confirms that unearned forgiveness is no cure for intimate wounds; that it merely hides them under a shroud of smiles and pleasantries, and allows them to fester.
You may have been taught by family or religious leaders that forgiveness is a redemptive act-a form of self-sacrifice that good people make to their enemies. By forgiving, you demonstrate your compassion and innocence, and preserve, or create, an image of yourself as a martyr or saint.
Forgiveness by itself, however, is not admirable-unless, of course, you believe that silencing yourself and denying yourself a just solution is admirable. What you consider magnanimity may in fact be nothing but a way of asserting your moral superiority over your partner and freeing yourself from your own contributions to the affair. What you see as self-sacrifice may serve the larger purpose of putting your partner under your control, under a debt of gratitude that can never be fully repaid.<p>The problem with expedient forgiveness-forgiveness granted without any attitudinal or emotional change towards the offender-is that it’s likely over time to exacerbate feelings of depression and grief, and feed an underlying aggression toward your partner. Those who forgive too quickly tend to interact with false or patronizing sweetness, punctuated by sarcasm or overt hostility. The result is a relationship ruled by resentment, petty squabbles, numbness, surface calm, and self-denial- a relationship lacking both in vitality and authenticity.<p>A patient named Pat modeled expedient forgiveness when she put her husband’s affair behind her long before the two of them had examined its meaning and put it to rest. “I know Henry never stopped loving me,” she told me. “I don’t need him to beg for my pardon.” Eight years later, however, though Henry never strayed again, they were still stumbling over trust and intimacy issues.<p>As I’ve said, “making nice” settles nothing. If you want to pave the way for genuine forgiveness, you can’t sweep what happened under the table. You need your partner to understand your pain, feel remorse, apologize, and demonstrate a commitment to rebuilding the relationship. To heal, you need to forgive, but your partner must apply salve to your wounds, first.<p>(Note: I believe the above is exactly what may have happened after Dalia’s first affair, when we did not address the issues, did not fully understand what had happened and what needed to change, and the mere end of the relationship brought “forgiveness”.)<p>Self-Forgiveness
In addition to forgiving your partner for wronging you, you should consider forgiving yourself for the wrongs you’ve inflicted on your partner, your family, and yourself.
For you, the hurt partner, these wrongs might include:<p>• Being overly naïve, trusting too blindly, ignoring your suspicions about your partner’s infidelity;
• Blaming yourself too harshly for your partner’s betrayal;
• Tolerating or making excuses for your partner’s unacceptable behavior to preserve your relationship;
• Having such poorly developed concepts of self and love that you felt un-entitled to more;
• Hurting and degrading yourself for making unfair comparisons between yourself and the lover;
• Feeling so desperate to win your partner back that you acted in ways that humiliated you-in front of the lover, your family, your friends;
• Losing your sense of self; losing sight of what you value in yourself;
• Putting your kids in the middle by needing them to support you, love you, and take your side against the other parent;
• Being so upset by the affair that you weren’t there for your children;
• Isolating yourself unnecessarily; trying so hard to protect the feelings of your children and parents that you cut yourself off from their support;
• Contributing to your partner’s dissatisfaction at home (for example, by failing to take your partner’s grievances seriously; getting buried in your career or in the needs of your children; being too critical, unavailable, or needy).<p>You, the unfaithful partner, should consider forgiving yourself for:<p>• Feeling so needy, so entitled to get your needs met, that you violated your partner;
• Exposing your partner-the person you love, the parent of your children-to a life-threatening disease.
• Blaming your partner for your dissatisfaction, without realizing how your own misperceptions, misbehavior, and unrealistic expectations compromised your relationship;
• Developing attitudes that justified your deception and minimized the significance of your actions;
• Failing to confront your partner with your essential needs; acting in ways that blocked your partner from satisfying them;
• Having unrealistic ideas about mature love that rendered you incapable of tolerating disenchantments in your relationship;
• Having such poorly developed concepts of self and love that you didn’t know how to create and sustain intimacy, or feel satisfied in a committed relationship;
• Inflicting chaos on your children, family, and friends.<p>No matter how your partner may have contributed to your unhappiness at home, you, the unfaithful partner, are solely responsible for your deception, and need to forgive yourself for the harm you’ve cause by violating your covenant of trust. You may also want to forgive yourself for the hurt you’ve caused your children. This may be an easier task if you can teach them through your own example that two people who love each other can make mistakes, take responsibility for them, and work together to renew their lives together.
It may help you and your partner to forgive yourselves if you learn to accept yourselves as fallible, erring human beings-conditioned, confused, struggling to make the most of a life you neither fully understand nor control. Self-forgiveness doesn’t relieve you of responsibility for your words or actions, but it may release you from self-contempt and from a “crippling sense of badness” that makes you believe “I can’t do better.” With self-forgiveness, you bring a gentle compassion to your understanding of who you are and why you acted the way you did, and reclaim what you most value in yourself.
<hr></blockquote><p>To “forgive and forget” is just a popular saying. Forgiving and forgetting are two completely different notions, and rarely go together in the real world.

Here's another piece on Forgiveness; this one is frokm Michele Weiner-Davis, author of "Divorce Busting" and "Divorce Remedy":<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself<p>Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I’m about to say and take it to heart.
Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner’s insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can’t feel joy because you’re too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.
In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not “give in.” To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you’ve drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.
I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they’re offered the tools, they can’t seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, “Our problems are your fault and you must pay.” As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day observe their parents being “right” but “miserable.” What lessons are they learning about love?
If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn’t be reading this if it didn’t), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.
“All this sounds good,” you tell yourself, “but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?” Good question. You don’t! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen, is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won’t go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.
Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn’t a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn’t easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.
So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind’s eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life. <p> <hr></blockquote>

Hi nikko,<p>Great posts Spacecase. I was working on my reply, but I just have to take a quote from Spacecases to explain:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>“True forgiveness cannot be granted until the perpetrator has sought and earned it through confession, repentance, and restitution.” - Judith Lewis Herman <hr></blockquote><p>My H did not confess, but after being caught and dealing with withdrawal he opened up to me and answered all my questions. He ended contact, sent NC letter, read all the material, competed the questionnaires etc. He basically followed Harley's advice to a T. <p>He "got it" and worked hard to make things right. He encouraged me to keep Spector on the computer, he cut back on work hours, he called throughout the day and encouraged me to call him, etc. We've been meeting eachothers ENs, spending time together, etc. Because of these actions, I was able to forgive him. <p>We went through the confession, repentence, and restitution as Spacecase mentioned.<p>I didn't really know I was ready to forgive, I just did. I didn't even realize I forgave him until one day when we were discussing the A and I realized I wasn't sad or hurt or angry or frustrated, etc. It was a great discovery for me. Maybe I should change my name! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Now it's about helping him to forgive himself and me trying to forget. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>H&S<p>[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Hurt & Sad ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hurt & Sad:
<strong>...My H did not confess, but after being caught and dealing with withdrawal he opened up to me and answered all my questions. He ended contact, sent NC letter, read all the material, competed the questionnaires etc. He basically followed Harley's advice to a T. <p>He "got it" and worked hard to make things right. He encouraged me to keep Spector on the computer, he cut back on work hours, he called throughout the day and encouraged me to call him, etc. We've been meeting eachothers ENs, spending time together, etc. Because of these actions, I was able to forgive him. <p>We went through the confession, repentence, and restitution as Spacecase mentioned.<p>I didn't really know I was ready to forgive, I just did... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>H&S, you are very lucky things worked out this way for you...many of us are struggling with the lies, deceit and many other things prior to forgiveness...you're doing very well! Good for you!

Spacecase,<p>Thanks - I really do feel lucky. Sort of ironic considering what we're dealing with.<p>I admire you and those who are in a similar situation. Hopefully your WS's will feel lucky one day. <p>H&S

the replies so far are great-lets keep this going. thanks to all who have posted.

dear spacecase-thank you so much for the post-it will help many, im sure.<p>where are you at in the forgiveness cycle??

Shortly after d-day I had a revelation that I should treat my FWS in the manner that I would like to be treated. This does not mean it was easy, but it put me on the right path. He made it easy by Plan A’ing me. He told me that he caused the hurt, loss of trust, etc. so it was his job to fix it. He did the right things, answered my questions over and over till I had no more, put a key stroke tracker on his computer, gave me the passwords to all of his computers and accounts, ended contact immediately, and so forth.<p>All of our situations are different. There are those whose WS had affairs because of problems that existed in a deteriorated marriage. And there are those whose WS had affairs because of nothing related to their relationship. Before you jump on me…. Let me explain. If a WS is having affairs during their dating, engagement and marriage, then the relationship never had a chance. The BS never had a chance to meet the WS’s needs. <p>Many here have said that they were able to forgive in part because they take responsibility for their own contribution to the state of a failed marriage.<p>In the later case, where there never was any fidelity in the relationship, it’s a little harder. It’s easier to feel that the WS did something unforgivable. I know that in my case ‘compensation’ was very important. His actions, as listed above and many more, were the compensation. His willingness to look into himself, take responsibility for what he did, and change his lifestyle to help our relationship grow and become healthy was the compensation that I needed.<p>Our first anniversary was a little over 2 months after d-day. I recall telling him that if he gave me some expensive jewelry, or anything that felt like a monetary buy-off, I’d be furious with him. I had to give me himself for your anniversary. So he took be on a great, romantic weekend to Santa Fe and spoiled me rotten. <p>Here's a link to a letter by Dr. Harley on the subject:
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

come on everyone-we cant be the only ones willing to share the forgiveness stories????

In reading this topic, I was thinking that I had completed the forgiveness process, but with D-Day being 4 yrs ago this past weekend, I knew in the back of my mind that total forgiveness was just not there...and I really did not know why...I was thinking that I just need more time to forget. But, the quote from above message really hit home!
____________________________________________________________________________________
" To forgive people who do not acknowledge the injury, or even worse, rationalize their injurious behavior as having been deserved (or justified), is to sustain the injury all over again.&#8221; Robert Lovinger (Clinical Psychologist) in &#8220;Religion and Counseling&#8221;
____________________________________________________________________________________<p>It just so happened that my wife and I were talking about how much I was hurting this weekend and it was a very emtional conversation (we haven't spoken about the affair for two years). She broke down completely and cried for an hour about how bad she feels about it, but she has never unconditionally apologized for the affair (she even made her apology conditional upon an apology from me as to how I hurt her for not meeting her ENs during that time period of the affair). She has always said that she had the affair because of how I hurt her in the relationship (I did not meet her EN). Even though she is completely sorry about the affair, she rationalizes it with the hurt she felt from me not meeting her ENs. Her exact statement from this weekend is "I would have never had the affair if you had not hurt me".<p>Even though I know she is sorry about the affair, the justification keeps bothering me. I know now and perhaps on some level then that I was not meeting her emotional needs and I understand that she claims they are the reason she had the affair, but I have always internally rejected them as an excuse for her affair. I think she needs that rationalization to keep from falling apart about the whole thing, but it prevents me from completing the forgiveness process.<p>The quote from Robert Livinger now leaves me wondering if I can ever completely forgive her if she always needs to rationalize the affair. Anybody with any thoughts?

I am in the process of forgiveness... but I realized this week that I cannot fogive him completely until I can TRUELY accept that I have chosen to love and honor a man that who has hurt me in the worst, most painful way possible. I am not there yet...though I am getting closer.<p>For some reason, it is VERY difficult for me to say to myself "It's OK to love this man as much as I do." TO me I know this means even if I say I have, I really haven't forgiven him. I still have doubts that he "deserves" my love...so I still have a lot of growing to do.<p>one day at a time, right?

Sincere remorse and sorrow.<p>hg

nikko,<p>This is a great topic, and it's been discussed several times before (someone should dredge up the old posts).<p>I completely disagree with the stuff that Spring uses to make her case for forgiveness being a "two-person" process. It's terrific when it is, and it certainly is easier. But forgiveness (true forgiveness) can be a one-person process, and without the drastic consequences that are quoted in that blurb.<p>Forgiveness is (in part) an ability to look at a bad situation in which you have been injured, and to see growth out of it. To find goodness in the bad. And then to act in a moral (not necessarily friendly) way.<p>I "forgave" my wife for her affair after we had separated. I had plenty of time to think and ponder these issues, and I realized that I had grown tremendously after I had discovered the affair. I had eliminated most of my bad behaviors. I had acted in good faith in support of our marriage (all while she continued the affair). It wasn't about being a martyr or being morally superior---it was about learning to do the right thing. I was able to understand (in some small way) how my wife felt, and what I had done (and not done) to create an environment in our marriage wherein an affair could happen (not that I 'blamed' myself for forcing her to have an affair). I was able to forgive my wife for her having hurt me in this way---it's not that I didn't still feel pain, but the bitterness was over. And I knew that I would survive regardless of the outcome of the marriage. I began to have a peace about my situation.<p>That forgiveness was well before my wife ever said "I'm sorry". I truly believe it was a gift from God (and a couple of Jesuits who I was reading/listening to during my pursuit of this). About a month after this, I discovered that my wife was pregnant by the OM. It was my having forgiven her for this "affair" that allowed me to act in a compassionate way---that allowed us to begin the long process to reconciliation.<p>In no way can I conceive of myself as having low self-esteem or self-worth, being morbidly dependent, or having buried any feelings. I wasn't pressured to forgive---I did undergo the process because I felt that I needed to. It was an effort, but it paid off very handsomely. And it required 0 participation by my WS.<p>But I'm not sure I remember why I was ready to forgive... d'oh! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

thanks everyone<p>k-i feel the same way. i struggled with it until i got that it was really for me, not him. i had to let go og the resentment and bitterness. i have grown enough to realize i will survive and pull through. recovery is slow, but it would be impossible if i held on to the pain and anguish. i needed to let go for me-to heal.<p>anyone else????

I think some of us here are confusing compassion, and letting go of resentment, and being understanding and open with forgiveness.<p>I can say I have compassion for my WW because I now understand the things that happened in our M and R that led to her A.
I can also say I don't have resentment about it because I have seen a lot of the bad side of me and my actions, so I can say, OK we both did things wrong and bad, so I don't blame you.
I can also say I am understanding and patient with her because I understand what is happening and I know it takes time and effort, etc. and I'm Plan Aing....and so on.<p>But all of that, I think, is different from forgiveness. How can I forgive (or have forgiven) something that has not even ended? that she's still doing? How can I forgive (or have forgiven) if she's shown no remorse yet?<p>So even though I have done many of the first (compassion, understanding, care, etc.), it does not necessarily mean I have done the second; forgiving...<p>I think these are entirely different concepts, and we have to differentiate between them.

spacecase- i understand what you are saying, however i have no confusion about the two. i am very clear in my forgiveness. i dont think you are at the point of letting go yet-its to early. it will come eventually for you-i hope.