The reason for release of information about the OP by the WS to the BS is primarily to abolish the incongruous power and control hierarchies constructed by the WS, i.e. to restore equilibrium to the marital system. <p>
It isn't so much the information itself as the act of RELEASING it to the BS. The WS constructed a wall between the BS and the WS/OP dyad, but constructed a one-way mirror-type window through which the OP could view the WS/BS dyad. In order to restore balance to the M and to protect the M and the BS, the WS needs to reverse that construction--Replace the one-way mirror available to the OP with a wall between the WS/BS and the OP and replace the wall between the BS and the WS/OP with a window. (See "Shattered Vows" at www.findarticles.com )<p>Dr. Harley on the Rule of Honesty from SAA:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When you follow this rule, you should reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know--your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, PERSONAL HISTORY [emphasis mine.--C.], daily activities, and plans for the future.<hr></blockquote><p>Bottom line: The BS should know whatever s/he wants to know about the WS and the OP simply because the WS knows it. The ultimate goal of the Rule of Honesty is INTIMACY. In order to have intimacy, you must self-confront and self-disclose. If the WS holds back any information about himself/herself from the BS, it impedes intimacy. And, of course, this same goal applies to the BS as well.<p>And not unimportant: Shouldn't the BS know when she meets or comes into contact with someone whether or not that someone had an A with their spouse? I would not humiliate my H by allowing him to interact with someone I had been in a R with (at ANY time in my personal history) without him being aware of that fact. I expect the same courtesy and consideration from him.<p>And as far as the OP is concerned, there is no right to privacy in regard to the BS since the OP chose to be involved with someone who was married. When you have a R with someone who is already in a primary R, you are in reality becoming part of a threesome. I had very tangible evidence of the R with the OP forced upon me without my knowledge and/or consent by the WS and OP when I had to suffer the very real and painful physical assault on my person of an STD transmitted to me from the OP via the WS.<p>It is akin to a woman who was slipped a mickey and raped while she was unconscious. A victim has a right to know the identity of any and all perpetrators, and anyone interfering with that right is obstructing justice.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

serena 24, it was unclear if your mm is still with you?<p>I on the other hand believe you make your bed and then you lie in it! If that be unhappy marrage,or making wrong choises! <p>I got married till death do us part, with children in the picture, you owe it to them to give them a happy, loving home with both parents!And you do what has to be done to give them that!!!<p>They did not ask to be here.<p>To speak frankely you seam to be bending things to make you feel better about what you have done. <p>ok there are marrages that will never work, and the men stay w/wife and have affairs, what is going threw the mind of the other women?<p>She is being used, and alowing it, i just don't get it.<p>Any man who would do this is not worth being with, in my book. No matter what you say you took time away from the children, and who knows what you did to the marrage... did you ever think he was not being honest with you about his wife? Come on, unless you were there and were able to see their relationship how in the world would you know?
I don't get it and i don't understand your thinking. But i guess it takes women like you to do this... ones that see no wrong in it that can justify what they are doing... that is what i got out of your post, thanks for letting me know just who (what kind of women) i am up agenst.<p>Do mean to bash you, but you post blew me away!!!!
Thanks for your input

Sam,
Although you say you don't mean to bash Serena, you really did. You asked for this input, and she obliged you and provided it. She didn't have to do that. I don't think anyone here suspects that you agree with her. Asking people to tell you something, then punishing them for telling you is a bad way to go.
Curious

this is an interesting conversation to me and in a certain way i'm loathed to make this comment. Not wanting to begin a flame war. That said-I get where serena is coming from. I thought that way for a long time too.<p>I believed that our EMA helped his marriage. Before me he was depressed, hid out at work and moping all of the time. Once things began with us he seemed to come to life. He laughed a lot and was full on energy. He even got a promotion at work. To my thinking I was HELPING him and his children. I thought of his wife as his concern. Not mine.<p>Sam you said
I got married till death do us part, with children in the picture, you owe it to them to give them a happy, loving home with both parents!And you do what has to be done to give them that!!!
<p>I can't speak for Serena, but that's what I thought I was helping him do. Those kids HAD 2 parents. Not only that their dad was no longer depressed. Plus WHO's job is it to give that to them? Doesn't the H owe it more than me (as the OP)? <p>Here is a statement that I never understand <p>She is being used, and alowing it, i just don't get it.<p>Who got used? Personally I didn't want to marry this guy. I took what I wanted and left the rest. I got my needs met, some material things and as a bonus I didn't have to give up my single life.<p>In the end I felt like HE got used. Now he's got this giant mess to sort out and I get to go off and be with another person (who will ,ideally, also meet my needs).<p>I know that that has to sound gloating, but that's how I saw it. I will confess that there is a part of me that still feels that way.<p>Nearly a year since our breakup he's sorting though a divorce or recovery or whatever. I'm not. For me and my friends he's x-boyfriend #37. For him and his w i'm the woman who ruined their marriage.<p>I understand that EMA's are a selfish thing. I went in with my eyes open. I knew what I wanted and knew what i'd likely get. I gave as much as I wanted to give and when the going got tough...KS was gone.<p>It's false to assume that every woman with a MM want's a commitment. I was with a MM becasue I DIDN'T want one.<p>Just Another Opinion<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

KS,<p>Just a thought: I submit that what you saw on your side of things may not have had any resemblance to what he exhibited to his wife and children. My H could not have attracted another woman if he had treated her like he treated us or acted around her the way he acted around us. Well, maybe if he found a totally masochistic woman somewhere? That's why Dr. Harley refers to it as the secret second life. I think the WS becomes like two different people in many ways with two different lives.<p>My H's OW got all the good stuff he had to offer; my children and I got all the hostility and meanness, which sucked big time. He became worse and worse as the A progressed, a worse husband--really a non-husband/tormentor--and a worse father--absent father, yelling raging father the rare times he was present. The A had nothing but negative effects on the family, especially when it was ongoing. Maintaining a double life is stressful by definition, and it will stress the entire family system.<p>I realize you are sharing your perceptions and perspective from your position in the triangle about the WS during that period of time. The WS viewed from the BS's point on the triangle is no doubt quite different.<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror,
very interesting.

Sam 14, <p>Personally I believe that it is very sad if you believe "you make the bed you lie in" and there is no room for change or growth. That's what life is. I would not recommend to anyone to stay in a marriage that is bad, where there is more hurt and anger that there is love. Who wants to look forward to a future where you wake up every morning with someone you can't share your dreams with? You suggest that staying for the children is a good choice. You say that they deserve a "happy, loving, home", well how is it possible to give them this if there is constant fighting and no love? Why would you want to teach your children to settle for less? Why would you want to teach your children to be complacent, stagnate, and to never realize their full potential? There are such things as loving parents who are no longer married, there are such things as happy children who come from divorced homes. <p>You ask if I think he wasn't being honest about his wife and the answer is no. From her own words they were in a miserable marriage. The difference is she would rather stay in a miserable marriage than face divorce and the possibility of having to support herself-- I am not assuming these things, I have read countless letters from her to him where she expresses this. I also no several people who know her and everyone agreed that their marriages was a poor example of what a marriage should be. <p>You asked questions and I gave answers. "Women like me" are all around you. We are loving, kind, intelligent, giving, forgiving, and remorseful. Let he who lives in a glass house cast the first stone. <p>
I met a man who's marriage was broken long before he met me; had it not been he would not have come looking for me. Long before we became intimate, we became friends. I met a man willing to admit that he had made mistakes, a man courageous enough to make the changes necessary for him to lead a happy life, a life full of potential and possibility. He is a wonderful father and teaches his children everyday to shoot for the stars. He is imperfect and knows how to ask for and offer forgiveness. <p>And no to answer your question we are not still in an EMA. He divorced 8 months after our affair began and we are together, not as MM and OW, but as two people who had to pay a big price to get to where we are and appreciate every second and moment that we are together. <p>Serena24

To Curious 53, i reread my last post, & you are right i was bashing... Sorry to her.<p>As for Katie: about the using... you don't get it... yes you were using the man and the man was using you... What i don't get is how can you use people for your own personal satisfaction, with NO concern for other people and SELF RESPECT(what are you mad of inside), that is what i don't get, it's the BIG PICTURE, Someone who is so self centered i guess can't grab the concept, Why would you want to be treated in such a manner?<p>Self respect has to come into play somewhere...doesn't it. <p>I guess i am trying to understand something i will never get. And have to accsept things that i don't understand because no matter what i understand or don't, there is always going to be someone there justifing why and how it helped a relationship etc... <p>These post have helped me understand a lot on how people get into affairs(affairs to me are just a band aid over a BIGGER problem, kind of like a drug to make them forget about the things they should be thinking about, a cowards way out so to speak, your not happy, do something that makes you happy instead of going the hard route and solving the problem, whether that is divorce or the hard work it take to work it out.), the ws and the ow, and all the other women who answered me , I say THANK YOU. YOU were very brave. <p>It's a dog eat dog world, we are all differant, and to add i found out i have more selfrepect for meself than i thought i had. I guess my parents did something right after all.haha<p>last post on this subject, got what i needed. THANK YOU ALL!

My experience as a FBS was very much like Conqueror just explained. FWH was a horrible person at home while leading his secret 2nd life, and made it clear he'd rather be anywhere other than with his family. It was a VERY tense and stressful way to live. He obviously acted very different when he was with OW, and misrepresented (lied) our marital situation to them. OW's perception of how things were and how they got that way was very different from reality. I found that out by talking to them after D-Days.<p>As a FWS, tho I tried not to misrepresent my relationship with my FWH to the OM, in hindsight I think I did exaggerate the bad parts...in a lame attempt to justify my choices (which can't be done). I was a much better actor at home than my FWH was. I could pretend everything was normal, but we were not close or intimate...we just existed. OM was single and made it clear he didn't want a permanent relationship with me. So why did I do it? Lookin' for love in all the wrong places. My FWH was also in an affair during that time, so that situation was so complex and screwed up I couldn't begin to break it down in one post!<p>It's amazing what can be accomplished when both H and W are focused on having a happy marriage and are totally committed to each other. Big Lesson Learned: Don't ever take your spouse or their love for granted. Lesson #2: A good marriage really does take work (mom was right! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>at peace

This thread has provided me with alot of valuable insight. I just wanted to say that I find it interesting how some have pointed out that the WS showed the OP their best self.
It really is easiest to be our best selves when the relationship remains within the confines of an affair. It took me alot of years to begin to recongize this and I too was a WS.
My OM always said that he feared that I wouldn't like him in "real" life. At the time I couldn't understand this. But later, it became much clearer. I thought I loved him. I say thought because in an affair, most often you don't get to know the person at the same level as if you would if you were living with them everyday. I was with ex-MM for 6.5 years and now that is over, I have to say, he may have been right about me not liking him as much as I did in the affair. There were things he did to his wife that I did not like. The affair instigated some of that behavior, but often times he'd say, I've been this way my whole life... She'd be home taking care of the house, kids, dinner, etc and he'd blow them off for either work or me. Sometimes he wouldn't even call until the last minute.
I loved the guy I knew, the side I saw most of the time. However, when it came right down to it, I was too scared to assume her life because of his selfishness.

The threshold I now have for exiting the M is based upon what my children and I experienced during 1999-2001. Whether I know about the existence of an OW or not, if I see the return of the H from he//, I am outta here! No need to investigate any further. I will never live that way nor allow my children to ever again. An A was just one component that grew out of that nasty-a$$, evil attitude.

Seara, i lied about not posting again on this subject...<p>I feel you make your bed you lie in it...
which means
You have to know what has been done wrong for you to get it, <p>Chance to grow, change and learn... that going with out saying doesn't it. You still have to accsept responsibility to what you have done and live with it.<p>Just my thoughts

CMiranda,
I think we had the same MM. I was with the man on and off for 10 years. I was madly in love with the man that I knew. Then when it all fell apart and he wanted me to be his W I was like NO WAY! He is whiney, selfish and spineless. I told him that I thought his wife was a saint for having put up with all of that. There was NO WAY.<p>Sam,
It's clear that this is a loaded subject for you and for that i'm sorry. I'll say this though I was raised to believe that it's a dog eat dog world. If you want something you're going to have to go out there and get it. This philosophy has worked extrememly well for me in my short life. Espically in business. I ran my relationships the same way that I ran everything else, me, me, me. It is only now that I can even consider the "greater good." Considering the greater good is what caused me to leave MM.<p>Okay, i'm not THAT changed. His version of you-me-together-forever didn't work for me. I'm not that selfless. I think that people who ARE selfless are great, i'm just not one of them. And i'm fine with that. In that respect I think my parents did a good job. I was raised to abhor a doormat. (mom was BS)<p>One last thing. You wrote:<p>You still have to accept responsibility to what you have done and live with it.<p>Why does that sound like a curse to me? LOL! There's no easy way to say this so i'll just say it. There are people who will never truely be sorry for their affair. Not in the way that you might need them to be. Maybe that's a sad fact of life, but fact of life it is. I'm sorry that people got hurt. But if I would go back to 1992 I wound't change a thing. It wasn't all roses for me, but ... I don't know. I just wouldn't change it.<p>Think about this-remember Betty Broderick. All these years later she's still not sorry she killed Dan and Linda. Maybe she's sorry she's in jail or that her children have so mother. But sorry about the action. I think not. It's kinda the same thing.

Another concept to toss in here:<p>I told OM a lot of lies about my home life -- which became a self-fulfulling prophecy.<p>I told him my H and I never talked, and then I stopped talking to H.<p>I told him my H and I never had sex, and I stopped sleeping with H.<p>I told him that I slept on the couch all the time, and I found a reason to do it.<p>I exagerated the extent of the problems with H, then went on to create exactly the kind of home life that would "justify" the affair.<p>Only realize that in hindsight....

Sam,
I absolutely agree- you have to accept responsibility for your actions. Once you do this you are afforded the opportunity to grow and become a better person. This does not mean you stay married to a person you don't love because of the kids etc. I met a man who does accept responsibility. He is not proud of having an affair, he is not proud of the way he treated his ex-wife; he is happy that he got a divorce. He has learned, and proves through his actions towards me, that he is now willing to do what it takes to make a relationship work.....A person has to want to make their relationship work, in his marriage he do not, so he made poor choices that hurt people, and believe me he has paid a large price for that. But he has also come out of it much stronger, healthier, and happier.
Serena

Sometimes it is pure hell doing the right thing.<p>In doing the right thing,you don't have to justify anything, you just do it.<p>With things that are not right, there is always some form of justificaltion. <p>To the Froid complex I.D. (me me me) is a fase of life in the two year old range. You are right i have been told i am selfless... and i find that a compliment, this person also said she hopes it rubs off on her.(the selflessness)
Some people can live with it and some can't, good/bad right/wrong the world still goes around without missing a beat.
It seams to me this generation is all about me me me, what's in it for me, what can i get out of it? Something is wrong with that i would think, i look out for my self but i sure don't run over people to get it. I feel some what a sad for people who are wrapped up in them self. <p>i will agree to disagree.

Agree/disagree - right/wrong I hope that you found the answers to the questions in your original post.<p>God Bless
KS

I should probably just let this thread die, but I was having a conversation last night that I reminded me of this thread.<p>During the course of a conversation I said to a girlfriend "I'm a narcissist. You know i'm a narcissist. I was raised by 2 narcissist. I never had a chance (LOL). The different is that I consider myself a recovering narcissist. I think narcissitically ALL of the time. The difference today is that I CHOOSE differently. I make a conscienceous effort to make decisions that are for the greater good." That's NOT knee jerk for me. It's becoming more comfortable, but it's not entirely natural for me. I'm never going to be the giving until it hurts kind. But i'm no longer me-me-me and me only either. What a lovely change.<p>There are all of these "promises" in AA. One being "you will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it."<p>That's where i'm at with my EMA. I have no desire to forget OR repeat the past. I embrace who I was and lovingly release that person and experience. She is after all still me.<p>Ok, so it's really narcissistic to repost on this dying topic [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but I had to add that.<p>KS<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

CMiranda,<p>I think you hit the nail on the head on why affairs occur and why WS idealize the OP. They only get to see the 'best' of them. They don't have to deal with how to pay the orthodontist, unclogging the toilet after Little Jimmy threw GI joes in it, in-law probs, the school calling about a truant kid or repairing the dents in the family car. All they get in the affair is mad, passionate sex and the sound of violins in the background.<p>My h didn't realize this. He thought the OW 'cared' about him and I didn't but he didn't think about all his shenanigans that I had put up with that she didn't know about...the food thrown all over the kitchen on July 4 and I was on my knees til 4am cleaning...the foot thru the car window...the anniversary he went drinking and came home and put his fist thru the wall (several times)...the 15 jobs in 18 months...the constant, habitual lying....the cruel things he said while fighting ('one night with his ONS in vegas was better than a whole year with me')...I could go on but it's pissing me off all over again, quite frankly. And he didn't realize that if he repeated the same behavior with anyone else, the relationship with them would suffer, too.<p>It's easy to 'love' someone if you only have to put up with *them* a few hours a week and you don't have to put up with any of their life's problems. It's when the ups and downs hit that the rubber meets the road and you find out who truly cares about you. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]