Hello,<p>I have a question for WS's. My H and I have been working on trying to resolve many of our pre-A issues and I think we are making good progress. But I keep coming back to one critical issue that my H cannot seem to give me an answer for. We have discussed this in MC several times and also when just the two of us are talking. I've asked my H, several times what did he do with the guilt/shame after he was with the OW? I believe my H to be a basically moral person, he has said he knows the A was wrong. So if you know something you are doing is wrong and will hurt someone you love and care about...then why did'nt the guilt stop you? I feel as though I've been in desperate times before where my needs were not being met, but it never occured to me to go outside my marriage as an option. I could'nt handle the guilt.....my H can't seem to dig down deep enough inside himself to give me this answer and I'm stuck on it....I can't get passed it,there's too much risk in being married and raising children with someone who apparently does'nt have a conscience or who can so easily put aside all the bells and whistles that go off in your head when you're doing something wrong.....Can you WS's help me with your perspective? I'm obviuosly missing something.<p>Thanks........
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

My husband & i were seperated when he had his affair, and the guilt he felt and delt with came out as anger and blame to on me. He did not handle the guilt well at all. He did not tell me about the affair until it was over for about 5 months. and that whole time he was in hell, trying to get me to confess to having an affair (i didn't have one) so he could reason in his mind she had one, so i had one. The whole 5 months were like that, and finaily when we could not take it any more and he beleived that had not had one, he told me that he had.<p>All people handle thing differantly, he had justified it in his oun head, at the time, and now it does not make siece to him, and he can't tell you how he delt with it.<p>MAY-BE good luck

sam,<p>You must know my H! From talking to him, I do think he had all figured out( justified ) at the time, but now in the light of day his "reasons" seem flimsly. I guess I could understand that, but he has'nt even offered up the flimsly excuses...I just get shrugged shoulders.....that's the part that scares me...what's to prevent him from doing something else immoral and justifying that action?

Angel,<p>This is one of the most if not THE most nagging questions in my mind. My WW, after D-Day, turned all the guilt into anger against me. She also accused me of affairs. She is one of those types of people who makes a decision and charges ahead without faltering. <p>Funny though, these same robots made up their minds to marry and stay with us for so many years.

It is not the easiest thing to deal with, and it gets harder as the A progresses. I had a hard time looking my family in the eye. At first I would just make sure I had enough time inbetween seeing exMM and seeing my H, so I could sort of get my thoughts together. As things went on I started taking more chances, cutting things too close, getting out of control really. Sometimes the guilt would cause us to pull away for a while, even contimplate ending it. It all seems like such a big drama, yet I played into it....

Angel,<p>Nothing. The guilt has not gone anywhere. It's still with me.<p>I told my H that I was sorry early on. He say's that he's forgiven me. I'm glad but I've not forgiven myself. I find that I have trouble discussing this with my H. I don't want to keep bringing it up (ya know reminding him if He's not thinking about it).<p>Maybe your H just doesn't know how to talk to you about it. It's hard to believe that he has no guilt. Maybe it's just the word he has trouble with. If he admits that he's guilty then he has to admit to himself that he was wrong. Give him time. (I know, just what you need, someone telling you to give him more time)<p>Just something to think about.<p>Wanting

Hi,<p>I am guilty of an A. I am embarrassed by it everyday. I hate that I hurt my H.<p>My H is a FWS as well. He had mulitple A's on me during our 10 year M and I hope he feels guilty for them. He says he is sorry [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . I don't know whether to believe him or not either. That is only because deep down I don't think he really feels guilty/sorry about them and I think he will do it again given the chance. <p>As for myself, Now, I know that I should have walked away and got divorced first before I chose to be with another man. My H should've done the same. If not divorce, at least give each other the chance to stop it.<p>At the time of my A, I was not thinking at all. I was not feeling guilty about the EA with the OM. When the "relationship"(EA) with the OM evolved to a PA, at first I felt guilty. Towards the middle and end, after I fell in "fantasy" with the OM, guilt was the farthest from my mind. I was deep into the fog. After my H found out the guilt overwhelmed me along with confusion, embarrassment, and stupidity.<p>I had my A out of revenge, resentment, desperation, and because I lost hope for my M. My H had cheated on me our entire M (8 yrs at the time). I used the OM as a crutch. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] - [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Just plain stupidity took over. <p>You may never trust your H again and you shouldn't. You should trust yourself though, enough to know that no matter what he may do or say that may hurt you, that you will be okay. At this point, I think that maybe you don't think he really feels guilty about his A, deep down. I mean, it has only been 2 months since D-day. You are not ready to forgive him yet. And of course, why should you? Now or ever? <p>If you choose to work things out, then you do everything in your power to do that. Only you can make the choice to forgive him. It won't happen overnight. I think it is too early to decide whether he is feeling sorry for having the A because you have to come to grips why he had the A first? It takes one step and one day at a time. <p>Radical honesty may hurt, but it is something that your H needs as do you. DO YOU THINK HE IS STILL HIDING SOMETHING? If he is not putting it all out there, then maybe he is afraid that it will hurt you more than it already has. He may be holding back out of fear that you will leave him. That is what you are comtemplating isn't it? YOU ARE EITHER M OR YOU ARE NOT. There is no in between. That is why it feels so unbearable right now.<p>RADICAL HONESTY....USE IT<p>Just my thoughts.
INTHECLOUDS

The guilt turned into anger. Like I deserved to be happy and I'd be D@mned if he was going to take that away from me!!<p>When the day came I realized the true depth of what i'd done to a person I really cared about....well, the guilt made me physically ill. We were seperated at the time.<p>I understand why you could be confused about how one could feel so BAD about doing something and yet KEEP DOING IT! It's like wanting to be thin and yet wanting that hostess twinkie. You know you'd enjoy either, but the twinkie is a no brainer, easy out way at quick satisfaction. I know, eating the twinkie doesn't hurt anyone else like having an A does...but trust me, the spouses feelings are really NOT taken into consideration at the time of the choice.

All,<p>Thanks for your thoughtful replies.....many of you I think hit on the fact that it's only been two months since D-day, well it feels like an eternity......I can appreciate the analogy with the twinkie, wanting something that is bad for you but doing it anyway, but I guess I think of it this way, if I was a diabetic and the twinkie was going to make me seriuosly ill I would think long and hard about it before I ate it. That's where I get stuck, when I talk to my H about how he came to this decision ( it was definitely a decision, he contacted old girlfriend and proposed the A), he really has nothing to say other than it seemed to be the solution to the problem at the time. What am I supposed to do with that kind of answer....wait until something more profound comes out of his mouth? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] How long should I wait?<p>What also makes this situation more difficult is my H is definitely NOT in touch with his feelings...he tends to bury any emotion that gets too intense to handle....he's got to want to learn a new way of dealing with life's unpleasantries or I fear I'm setting myself up for more of "I don't know why I did it...."

Guilt....I have guilt with me every minute of the day. I got physically sick one day at work when all I could think about was how much I had hurt my wife. <p> I hope it never goes away so I will always be reminded of the pain that I caused and so it will be a constant reminder of the life I don't want to go back to. Guilt makes you feel like a total peice of crap and I realllly hate that feeling.<p> I think when you go into true recovery and tackle the issues about the affair that maybe some of the guilt will subside with relationship healing but anybody that says their guilt free is either not truelly repentant or they are having some sort of brain and heart fart.<p>
Love in Christ<p> cajunky

You are right to be concerned about the lack of insight. If he doesn't figure out how and why he did what he did and what the thought processes were, he is bound to repeat it. As Dr. Harley told me about my M, without that crucial lack of insight into how and why A's happen and how to prevent them, all we're doing is working toward the next A, not rebuilding an affair-proof M.<p>Unfortunately, this is an internal process that has to take place within him. You will be able to see the signs that it has taken place, as we can see it in the former WSs here on this forum, but you can't make it happen. To provide the best environment for it to happen, you can focus on yourself and your issues and maintain an awareness that he is not where he needs to be to protect your M from his weaknesses so that you can protect yourself.<p>Some WSs simply do not have a conscience. I have been told that my ex-H is one of those. Even the ones who do have a conscience may have so blunted them with prolonged denial that it make take something major to jar them into awareness. One of the clues that your H has a conscience is if you have ever seen evidence of it in the past with sincere remorse and regret, repentance, and all that good stuff. If that mechanism was there at one time, it is probably still there, but buried under the denial. It is scary to face your worst self. All we can do is stay out of the way and try not to distract them from the view.<p>My H told me that how he managed it was he thought of me as his ex-W. How he rationalized that he was living with and sleeping with his "ex-W" or why I was not allowed to know I was "single", too, I don't know. He has yet to explain those discrepancies in his "logic". I imagine it is whatever is expedient at the moment. To use hope4's twinkie analogy, we tell ourselves, "just this one time won't hurt" "I'll be good tomorrow" "I'm not really THAT fat" "No one will know" We've all rationalized about something in our lives, so we know how it works.<p>I also think of the old story about frogs: If you try to put a frog in a pot of boiling water, he's going to jump right back out, but if you put him in water at a comfortable temperature and then SLOOOOOOOWLY heat it up, he will stay there until he's cooked.<p>Sinking into sin gets easier and easier. It is progressive. You get better at rationalizing the more you do it and you're able to rationalize bigger and bigger things. Rarely do people jump straight from faithful loving spouse to panting after an OP. It is a series of steps that get easier and easier the more comfortable, habitual, and routine all the previous steps become.<p>Of course, one of the easiest ways to avoid self-examination is to focus on the BS's faults because we all have them.<p>[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

It's interesting you would use a diabetic as an example.<p>I have a best friend who is a diabetic. We hung out a lot in college. She would drink diet pop all day and we'd dine on chips and other junk food. She'd drink if we were at a party and she'd forget to take her insulin shot from time to time. Each and every time she had a twinkie instead of an apple...she knew it was taking time off of her life but it didn't stop her. She wound up with boils under her arms from poor eating habits. She also went on to have a stillborn baby (after marriage). The doctor warned her that every time she'd try for another it was taking YEARS off her life. They had a healthy boy, then a miscarriage, then another healthy boy.<p>The consequences were not RIGHT THERE in her face. All that she wanted to see were the rewards...the short term pleasures. I'm sure when she's 70 and facing multiple health problems it will seem more serious to her.<p>I wasn't aware your H specifically REQUESTED an A. That's a little different thought process than finding yourself in deeper than you imagined. I agree with Conquerer...if he doesn't get to the core of WHY he did what he did...he'll never be able to fix it so it won't happen again.

What do you want him to say?<p>What he told you may be why he did it. Why is it so hard to believe? Maybe cause you don't believe him? There has got to be a better reason, right? <p>There is something you want him to say. It may be that something you feel will make the deciding decision whether you stay or not. He can't make that choice for you. <p>I know you are hurting and angry right now. You don't know what to do and you are feeling really disgusted by it all. I mean the emotions are endless. But, you have to make the choice whether you want this marriage or not. Trying to analyze every word he says is not going to make it better. <p>Figure out what went wrong like the others said. You HAVE TO go back to the source of the problem. Something led up to the A. The both of you need to realize that it takes 2 for a M to break down and 2 for it to work. Don't play cover-up. You don't want to fall back into the same nightmare later down the road. <p>You can't control or change him, but you can control and change yourself. That you don't have to wait for. <p>Just my thoughts.
INTHECLOUDS

INTHECLOUDS,<p>I like your thinking.<p>Wanting