BR, I'm so glad you posted here because you explain it much better than I can. There is so much misunderstanding about addiction and co-dependency out there. <p>I worked for years as a psychiatric nurse and saw many, many alcoholic and/or drug addicted patients given psychiatric labels with the assumption that the substance abuse was merely a symptom of their underlying pathology. The staff poo-poo'd the 12-step programs and totally misunderstood them. I've heard every misguided argument in the world against them.<p>Codependency does NOT mean blaming your bad behavior on others. It does NOT mean thinking of yourself as a victim. It does NOT mean leading separate lives and not caring for your spouse. It does NOT mean "throw the bum out" or lock them out to teach them a lesson. It does NOT mean that you cause the bad behavior of others either.<p>
And, yes, living with addictive behavior does lead to abnormal responses. These usually originate in the family of origin and become the reason we choose spouses with the same issues with whom we are trying to heal ourselves. <p>As you pointed out, BR, the issue of control vs. boundaries is a tough one to understand. You have helped me a lot with this [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . There has to be a balance between the giver and the taker. If you are giving and getting nothing positive in return and then assuming you just didn't give enough, weren't attractive enough, interesting enough, fun enough, whatever, and then continue to give more and more expecting different results, that's codependency. <p>You are not helping yourself by allowing yourself to be mistreated and you aren't helping the other person either, just rewarding their bad behavior -- which tends to help it continue -- and adding to their guilt, which is another excuse for them to turn it around and scapegoat you. As you said, the POJA eliminates the need for boundaries because it creates a balance between giver and taker for each member of the relationship.<p>I too credit AlAnon with my survival of this mess. I don't see any incompatibility between MB and 12-step programs. Both tell us to take responsibility for our own behavior. Both tell us to treat others with respect and courtesy FOR OUR OWN SAKES. Both tell us not to just REACT to the bad behavior of others, but to ACT to clean up our own side of the street. Accepting the POJA means accepting that getting your own needs met is as important as meeting those of your spouse.<p>ACCEPTANCE is another factor. Until you accept things as they are, you are powerless. Codependents are locked into certain responses that they keep repeating over and over no matter how much pain they feel because they believe that their happiness depends upon certain outcomes involving other people. Until you accept what is, the good and the bad, you cannot change it. It's all about having choices, as you described. <p>Thanks again, L<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: LetSTry ]</p>

I am codependent, in recovery. It's unfortunate that codependency has this particular name, but it was named way back when alcoholism was first being intensively studied, and the alcoholic "the dependent" was the focus. So the spouse was "the codependent." One does not become codependent by marrying an alcoholic; one marries the alcoholic because one is codependent. <p>Is codependency a disease? How would you describe pneumonia? An external agent that has a powerful negative effect on the person, causes acute pain and suffering and may leave you with lifelong scarring of the lungs. Codependency scars the spirit. Unlike alcoholism, there is no biogenetic component to codependency.<p>I'd like to get this straight: A codependent is a person whose sense of identity, value, worth and self-esteem are completely externally centred. A person who has been TRAINED in a severely dysfunctional family of origin to believe that s/he does not make mistakes, s/he IS a mistake. So the codependent is never enough; always trying to be "good enough", "clever enough", "pretty enough" to please somebody else. Even people one doesn't even know, like or respect. It's a lack of selfhood. One has no standards of one's own....<p>I'm in group therapy. We are 8 women and 3 men, ranging from 19 - 60. We're of laughably dissimilar social and ethnic types. One from China, one South African, one Irish, the Americans from all over the States, social status just as eclectic. Yet we are all kin, we have the same syndrome, the same "symptoms", we understand each other. What we have in common are alcoholic or drug addicted, or in one case, a compulsive gambler, parents. Some of us were beaten, some not, some sexually abused, some not, some got the whole katootie.<p>Bramble Rose has put it very eloquently.<p>What I want to add is that the codependent has serious problems with marriage building unless s/he knows what normality is. A codependent should never be let loose on Plan A! A codependent struggles to be radically honest: hell, we don't usually even know who we are or what we need! If we do, we'll deny our needs or even lie through our teeth because we're too damn scared our spouse won't love us if s/he knows who we really are, or will leave if we make demands. To us, our most basic needs are selfish demands. If asked what we want: would you prefer tea or coffee? we watch the asker for cues and try to decide what s/he wants us to have, and if we choose tea and they say, okay, I'll have coffee, we're immediately overwhelmed by fear and guilt and the awful knowledge that we failed again.<p>Codependents are not all meek and mild. Bullies are also codependent: they measure their strength and power by attacking smaller, weaker people. Bullies are nothing without bully=ees against whom they can define themselves. <p>I could go on for pages, but will end up with this: if you CHOOSE from a position of knowledge and awareness to meet somebody's expressed needs, that's love. If you're driven by fear and desperation and because you don't know anything else, why call it love?

I know I match the definition of codependent. My H is an alcoholic and my Dad was an alcoholic. To be honest I'm an alcoholic also, although I've been sober for a long time. So I suppose that makes my H a codependent also. Why does it seem mostly women get categorized in this definition?<p>Anyways, from what I'm getting here, all BS are considered codependent because an affair is considered an addiction. I know sex can be an addiction, but don't necessarily go along with every affair being an addiction and I don't see Dr. Harley making that broad assumption either.<p>Also I suppose I'm a little thick but I'm still not getting the boundaries/control thing. I thought I was making great strides in putting up boundaries but now not sure.

I have read that codependence can be described as an addiction to another person (sounds like and affair - eh?). I have also read that this means it's a compulsive need to control another person.<p>I totally agree with Faith1's, LetStry, and Bramblerose.<p>Anything taken to extremems is not healthy - you need balance.<p>While many of us here may not be truly codependent, after D-day, many of us become so "addicted" to keeping our spouses from leaving that it's all we focus on, it's all we do - it drives us into depression and we can't function in our normal daily lives, in effect we are so worried about the other person that we forget about ourselves and sometimes forget to take care of ourselves.<p>In the days and months after D-day, the BS is trying to sort everything out and trying to learn what our WS is doing, and why they are doing it.<p>This is where the MB principles fit nicely. Thre may be more to the puzzle - like an actually disease or addiction on the part of the WS or on the part of the BS, but until the dust settles and we can think more level headedly about things- it doesn't hurt to reevaluate the marriage and meeting needs as suggested by MB. And these principles - in many situations - have worked wonders.<p>Now there are some things that are going on with the WS that even Harley says that need to be taken care of by the WS before the MB principles can really work - like an addiction on the part of the WS, which will make it seem like the BS is banging their head against the wall when the MB principles supposedly "don't work.". <p>However, it takes time for the BS to figure out exactly what is going on with themselves and their WS so that they know what to do. I digress... back to codependency.<p>Ok, because the BS is so fixated on the WS, and sometimes allowing the WS to inflict needless pain upon them - possibly because the WS does have something else going on with them, the copendent books - especially like the ones by Beatty and the 12 step program are helpful, and God - or turning to a higher power - is always a good idea, and sometimes people don't realize it until they look at the 12 steps.<p>When the BS thinks that THEY can change the WS through controlling the WS - this is when codependency books come into play - the BS has to realize that the only behavior they can control is their own and all they can do is learn the proper way to act to provide the best marriage they can(MB princiles). <p>However, it takes two to make a marriage work. And sometimes even using the MB principles, no matter how much the BS has changed to meet the needs of the WS in the marriage. Love is a choice/decision. This is also another good time for codependency books because it helps the BS MOVE ON.<p>It helps to give the BS some selfrespect and teach them that they are a good person no matter what the outcome of the marriage is - because sometimes the BS sees the failure of a marriage as a failure of themselves - and then get depressed etc...... which is not healthy.<p>You need to grieve, but you also need to go on with life.<p>The BS just needs to do what they need to do to keep a healthy respect for themselves and not get lost in saving the marriage. They need to realize that they have worth too. So when it sees somene in Plan A is going to the extreme by making it seem like the WS is everything and the BS is nothing - then the BS needs some help.<p>Otherwise I believe marriage is about give and take, loving one another, meeting each other's needs - but it takes 2 people who choose to work on the marriage. Not just one obsessed person.<p>
That's my take. K<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</p>

I'm not sure what to make of all this. I'll have to re-read the posts and think about them a bit more.<p>I started the thread playing "devil's advocate". It seemed that these two theories/movements are at odds, and it was my desire to elicit a discussion.<p>Clearly Dr. Harley feels that the codependency movement is not applicable to marriage as it it applicable to a drug addiction or alcoholism. Now he may mean that it is not applicable to a HEALTHY marriage, and perhaps has a different idea of its application to a marriage affected by an affair. We don't know that, but at least at first glance it appears he belives it is not applicable period.<p>That being said, I have been hearing a lot about the value of codependency reading here on the boards, and many have recommended that I do that, particularly as it refers to issues of control. And I AM doing that. Granted I've just begun this, but I'll tell you right away, I see some of the codependent signals in myself, and I will pursue this learning process. We shall see where it leads me.<p>I have read all of the posts here, and while I see that both sides of the issue apparently have their points, and both sides appear to make sense, it would appear that we have an issue that is not black and white, and perhaps it has to be looked at on a casa by case basis, rather than as a universal.<p>I will say this, though. It SEEMS to me that most if not all of the people who advocate codependency here in conjuction with MB principles are or were ALSO affected by alcoholism or drug addiction. And it may be that in THOSE cases codependency does work well in conjuction with MB. Or at least codependency allowed those folks to make sufficient changes in their lives in order to be able to then apply MB principles to their Marriage.<p>I don't know what the answer is, or if there is an answer. Perhaps I'll take it up with Steve at my next session.<p>What I have not seen in these discussions, though, is an argument that refutes or finds flaws in Dr. Harley's assertions about codependency, and maybe it can't be made.<p>But the bottom line is what it always is; if codependency has helped you, (in many cases I see very strong words about it like "saved my life"), then it worked for you, and that is all that really matters. And under those circumstances, I can understand why you would advocate its use for others.<p>But I think there are still unanswered questions about this, like whether it is applicable to everyone affected by an affair, or if the addictive behavior occuring within an affair can really be equated with the addictive behavior of an alcoholic or drug user, or if it can be equated only in certain cases, and perhaps we will never really have the answers, but the important thing is that all the views be aired, discussed, challenged and in that way we will all be better for it.<p>I hope I have not offended anyone, that was never my intention. I am learning here, and I have learned a lot; much of it from the people who have posted to this thread in apparent disagreement with some of what I have said or questioned. But I don't really disagree...I am just questioning some premises based on the apparent conflict in views raised by this issue, and I am trying to make up my mind about it.<p>Let the discussion continue!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>I'm not sure what to make of all this. I'll have to re-read the posts and think about them a bit more.<p>I started the thread playing "devil's advocate". It seemed that these two theories/movements are at odds, and it was my desire to elicit a discussion.<p>Clearly Dr. Harley feels that the codependency movement is not applicable to marriage as it it applicable to a drug addiction or alcoholism. Now he may mean that it is not applicable to a HEALTHY marriage, and perhaps has a different idea of its application to a marriage affected by an affair. We don't know that, but at least at first glance it appears he believes it is not applicable period.<p>That being said, I have been hearing a lot about the value of codependency reading here on the boards, and many have recommended that I do that, particularly as it refers to issues of control. And I AM doing that. Granted I've just begun this, but I'll tell you right away, I see some of the codependent signals in myself, and I will pursue this learning process. We shall see where it leads me.<p>I have read all of the posts here, and while I see that both sides of the issue apparently have their points, and both sides appear to make sense, it would appear that we have an issue that is not black and white, and perhaps it has to be looked at on a case by case basis, rather than as a universal.<p>I will say this, though. It SEEMS to me that most if not all of the people who advocate codependency here in conjuction with MB principles are or were ALSO affected by alcoholism or drug addiction. And it may be that in THOSE cases codependency does work well in conjuction with MB. Or at least codependency allowed those folks to make sufficient changes in their lives in order to be able to then apply MB principles to their Marriage.<p>I don't know what the answer is, or if there is an answer. Perhaps I'll take it up with Steve at my next session.<p>What I have not seen in these discussions, though, is an argument that refutes or finds flaws in Dr. Harley's assertions about codependency as it relateds to marriage, and maybe it can't be made.<p>But the bottom line is what it always is; if codependency has helped you, (in many cases I see very strong words about it like "saved my life"), then it worked for you, and that is all that really matters. And under those circumstances, I can understand why you would advocate its use for others.<p>But I think there are still unanswered questions about this, like whether it is applicable to everyone affected by an affair, or if the addictive behavior occuring within an affair can REALLY be equated with the addictive behavior of an alcoholic or drug user, or if it can be equated only in certain cases, and perhaps we will never really have the answers, but the important thing is that all the views be aired, discussed, challenged, and in that way we will all be better for it.<p>I hope I have not offended anyone, that was never my intention. I am learning here, and I have learned a lot; much of it from the people who have posted to this thread in apparent disagreement with some of what I have said or questioned. But I don't really disagree...I am just questioning some premises based on the apparent conflict in views raised by this issue, and I am trying to make up my mind about it.<p>Let the discussion continue!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
I have no idea how this happened! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Spacey,
I was confused and making it more difficult myself. Here's what I'm coming up with - see what you think: We ALWAYS have to be careful with labelling people. So whether or not we are truly "codependent", I feel we can learn from it - especially when we need to break free from feeling like we are responsible for; our WS, the affair, "teaching" them, the failure of the marriage, OR for putting up with an ongoing A or repeated A's.<p>I love this discussion as well.<p>Faith1 [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith;
There is no question in my mind that much of the "codependent" behavior, if it is present, is very, very negative in ANY circumstance.<p>The concept of giving without receiving, being controlling, etc. etc. are clearly bad for us; on a personal level OR in a relationship; no question of that.<p>The issue here, I think, is that taking the codependent process all the way through appears to create an environment or a person that is totally independent, and therefore perhaps not quite the best type of person to be ready to make the compromise, negotiation, balance of give and take, etc. that Dr. Harley believes is necessary to a healthy marriage...

Me again.<p>Firstly, the opposite of codependent is UNdependent.<p>And why is "independent" suddenly a dirty word?? I just checked it in my Webster's, and the definition there is "Not dependent, not subject to control by others, self-governing." Those seem like worthy ideals to me!<p>You see, I believe that God created me as a whole person in my own right, in His image, worthy and complete in myself. I do NOT believe He created either me or my husband as half-people. I do NOT believe my H is my other half, or that I am his. What I DO believe is that each of us is half of this marriage. Now, the more whole, complete and healthy each of us is, the more each of us has to give into the marriage.<p>If whole people, we are able to safely use the tools recommended by MarriageBuilders:
1. POJA, where each party is able to honestly express his/her true needs and feelings, and the couple can negotiate and brainstorm to mutually find a solution that meets as many needs as possible for BOTH. This generates high synergy and feelings of love, because neither party feels deprived, sacrificial, or resentful.
2. Protection: protecting your spouse (and yourself) from your own weaknesses. Unrecovered codependents don't even know what their weaknesses are, or mistakenly identify them as virtues..... eg, having no mind of your own and bending over backwards to meet every whim and fancy you think you see in your spouse.
3. Care: how can one take care of somebody else when you don't even know how to take care of yourself? I was told once by an Episcopalian priest that people completely miss the point of Jesus' commandment "Love one another as your self." He said that UNLESS you love yourself, you are NOT CAPABLE of loving anybody else. This makes a lot of sense, when you kick out the preconceived notion that self-love has to do with vanity, greed and lust.
4. Time: frankly, sometimes a codependent can be so clingy that his/her partner probably dreams of time on his/her own! Codependents need to learn to structure their time so they're not obsessing 24/7 over their partners, to give the poor guys some breathing space! It's much richer and lovelier to be together because both of you want to, than because one or both of you is desperately afraid of being alone.<p>So much depends on how you define words. I've read Dr Harley's article, and what he describes there is what I would call "interdependence." Where each complete person brings his/her strengths to the marriage, and protects him/herself from his/her weaknesses. In any marriage, it's most unlikely that the partners will have carbon-copy skills and talents, so each person is adding something to the mix, and the whole is definitely more than the sum of the parts.<p>That's the result of my day's meditation on this theme; take what you like, leave the rest! I'm happy because I have it sorted out in my own head now.

Hey Space ~<p>We are not using codependency to recovery - we are recovering FROM codependency [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>LetsTry and juststartingover wrote fantastic posts!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What I have not seen in these discussions, though, is an argument that refutes or finds flaws in Dr. Harley's assertions about codependency, and maybe it can't be made.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't think Dr. Harley's assertions are flawed. I agree with him.<p>Does that mean that recovery concepts and goals, like the 12 steps, are mutually exclusive to marriage and the MB principles?<p>Absolutely not. These principles are very compatible - WHEN USED AS INTENDED.<p>I've seen co-dependents completely abuse Plan A over and over. You can not practice MB in a dysfunctional relationship. You have to be a healthy individual FIRST to participate in a healthy relationship. The 12 Steps help us to become healthy individuals, so that we are capable of using the MB principles to have a healthy relationship.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But I think there are still unanswered questions about this, like whether it is applicable to everyone affected by an affair, or if the addictive behavior occuring within an affair can really be equated with the addictive behavior of an alcoholic or drug user, or if it can be equated only in certain cases, and perhaps we will never really have the answers, but the important thing is that all the views be aired, discussed, challenged and in that way we will all be better for it.<hr></blockquote><p>Addiction, be it chemical or emotional, effects not just the individual, but everyone in proximity. That's how codependency starts.<p>I wasn't affected by active addiction as a child. My grandfathers were alcoholics, but I never knew them. There was very little alcohol in my childhood home, and no chemical addictions. I now understand that my father had repeated emotional affairs, but I wasn't aware of that while I was a child.<p>I became codependent just simply from learning my life lessons from others who had grown up in close proximity to active addiction. So I'm a second-hand co-dependent if you will...but I got my promotion to first-hand by marrying an alcoholic. It's no accident that every one of my siblings has either married alcoholics, or become one.<p>So...let me get to my point. My point is that the typical sick reactions to others that is common for codependents of chemically addicted people are often seen on these boards too.<p>Were they co-dependent before their spouse had an affair? I don't know - some of them probably were, and it was probably a major factor in their spouses philandering. <p>That's because co-dependents are expert at love busting. And the absolute most frustrating part of it all is that most of them really don't think that they are doing anything wrong - they feel justified in what they are doing - as they dig themselves deeper and deeper, punching huge gaping holes in their spouse's love banks.<p>That's what codependents do. They completely focus externally - never for one second looking at their own actions, or if they do, not seeing anything wrong with what they are doing.<p>But anyway, even if one wasn't codependent before the affair, the absolute upheaval of reality, the emotional destruction, the complete loss of self-esteem is enough to cause someone to start behaving like a codependent. It's a natural coping mechanism in the face of complete utter disaster - just as in my case - it was a survival technique that I learned during my childhood. <p>Sadly, its a poor technique, and one that will destroy any chances of saving the marriage. Not only that, but more importantly, it doesn't help the individual either. Even if the marriage doesn't make it, the BS still has to go on with life. How does one cope with such absolute rejection? The answers that I found in the 12 steps were answers that gave me back peace, hope, self-respect, dignity, and control over my own life.<p>As it so happens, my marriage was saved. It was saved because *I* became a whole person. My changes made it possible for us to improve the relationship to a point where we didn't have to divorce. A relationship can only be as healthy as the 2 people involved!<p>Co-dependents can not POJA. Why not? Because the POJA requires honesty (which codependents are not) and requires self-knowledge of needs, requires a balanced taker and giver, and the ability to communicate those things directly without demands. Dr. Harley clearly points out that if one person does not honestly stick up for his or her own needs in a POJA negotiation, that the POJA isn't being followed. A codependent will either not be honest about their real feelings about a situation, or honestly not KNOW what their real feelings or needs are regarding a situation, OR will try to manipulate the feelings of their spouse in order to get the desired outcome. How can anyone negotiate with someone like that?<p>Now. Lets get to the point about Dr. Harley's problem with so many people claiming to be co-dependent, and having their so called "recovery" sabotage marriages.<p>Let me tell you what happened to my very codependent sister when she first found out about boundaries. She had taken the first few steps, started attending Al-Anon meetings, and started reading the literature. She started to try to apply what she learned in her life. <p>Well, being codependent, she often felt abused and used by my parents. She felt they took advantage of her, didn't respect her, and it made her angry. She went to Al-Anon and found out that she deserved to be treated well. And that she could stop others from being disrespectufl and hurtful (or so she thought thats what she heard).<p>So she called me and proudly announced to me that she was going to start setting boundaries with my parents.<p>Guess what she did?<p>She did what every control-freak codependent does when they try to learn boundary setting.<p>She called my mother and set down her "rules" for how she expected my mother to change how she treated her in the future. She explained carefully to my dad how he had to change how he spoke to her and what he demanded of her. Can you say selfish demands?<p>Then the next week she called me, ragingly angry because Mom and Dad were ignoring her boundaries!!<p>Mom and Dad of course, were furious with her, because when they went about doing what they have always done, she reacted with angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements.<p>She had expectations that by demanding that they change to suit her, that they would do so. And when they didn't she was hurt, angry and frustrated.<p>Yep, you guessed it, as long as she did this, and she did it for awhile, her relationship with my parents went downhill. She was still treated badly, AND her own behavior worsened, and EVERYONE was more miserable.<p>Finally, my sister learned that boundaries were about changing herself, not others. She figured out that boundaries didn't mean teaching and forcing my dad not to call at 11pm with some outrageous request for assistance, but that it meant not picking up the phone, or, if she did pick up the phone, to say "No, sorry Dad, can't help you with that right now." And when she did that, things got better with my parents.<p>Unfortunately - many codependents never seem to make that leap of understanding. They stop at the point where they learn that they deserve to be treated with respect - adn then they set about with all the old ways of behaving to force others around them to give respect and fairness to them.<p>That's why the term codependency has such a bad reputation. Those of us who have made it over the whole boundary hurdle aren't nearly as noticable. We act like normal people most of the time [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So yes, if you act like a partially recovered codependent in a relationship, its going to completely destroy the marriage.<p>But it doesn't mean that one shouldn't learn those lessons, or that we should discourage anyone from learning those lessons.<p>As far as I am concerned, the faster every single one of us learns these lessons - recovering from our codependency to our spouses - be it emotional or chemical addictions that our spouses are struggling with - the faster we start healing and living again.<p>When that happens, the marriage has a chance. And even if the marriage doesn't make it, the person has a chance to go on to live a healthy fulfilling life, where he or she CHOOSES to drop boundaries in a trusting, loving relationship that is structured by the POJA.

OK folks; first of all I AM NOT AGAINST THE CODEPENDENCY MOVEMENT. I am sharing thoughts, ideas, and questioning something that came up because our mentor, Dr. Harley, spoke out against it in what I felt were pretty strong terms.<p>So please don't treat me like the bad guy here who is discrediting or trying to discredit that in which you believe. I am not; I am just trying to understand this apparent conflict and trying to find the "middle ground" if that is what is required to balance the two.<p>I am currently reading "Codependent No More", and I believe there are valuable things for me there, and I will continue to explore those.<p>I believe that what we have here is a situation similar to thers we face daily on the boards; the different approaches and opinions of what appear to be the same things.<p>For example; we believe in Counseling as a valuable tool for everyone here. But when we run into counselors that advocate "selective honesty" as opposed to "radical honesty", we take exception to them. Likewise, we discuss at length things like how to find a good counselor, what to look for, what to beware of. We also look for counselors that are "pro marriage", as opposed to thise who advocate "whatever you feel is right and is OK, so pursue it" because we feel that kind of thinking is not necessarily conducive to a healthy marriage relationship, etc. etc.<p>So; let's discuss it, let's debate it, but lets not make it personal and let's not defend our points of view by deriding what another poster says, but let's do it by presenting our point of view or explaining why we disagree with x or y theory.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by juststartingover:
<strong>Me again.<p>Firstly, the opposite of codependent is UNdependent.<p>And why is "independent" suddenly a dirty word?? I just checked it in my Webster's, and the definition there is "Not dependent, not subject to control by others, self-governing." Those seem like worthy ideals to me!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Independent is not a dirty word. We all aspire to it. All I said was that a certain exagerated degree of independence is probably not condicive to the kind of negotiation, joint agreement, balance of giver and taker that a healthy marriage requires.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
You see, I believe that God created me as a whole person in my own right, in His image, worthy and complete in myself. I do NOT believe He created either me or my husband as half-people. I do NOT believe my H is my other half, or that I am his. What I DO believe is that each of us is half of this marriage. Now, the more whole, complete and healthy each of us is, the more each of us has to give into the marriage.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wholeheartedly agree.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
If whole people, we are able to safely use the tools recommended by MarriageBuilders:
1. POJA, where each party is able to honestly express his/her true needs and feelings, and the couple can negotiate and brainstorm to mutually find a solution that meets as many needs as possible for BOTH. This generates high synergy and feelings of love, because neither party feels deprived, sacrificial, or resentful.
2. Protection: protecting your spouse (and yourself) from your own weaknesses. Unrecovered codependents don't even know what their weaknesses are, or mistakenly identify them as virtues..... eg, having no mind of your own and bending over backwards to meet every whim and fancy you think you see in your spouse.
3. Care: how can one take care of somebody else when you don't even know how to take care of yourself? I was told once by an Episcopalian priest that people completely miss the point of Jesus' commandment "Love one another as your self." He said that UNLESS you love yourself, you are NOT CAPABLE of loving anybody else. This makes a lot of sense, when you kick out the preconceived notion that self-love has to do with vanity, greed and lust.
4. Time: frankly, sometimes a codependent can be so clingy that his/her partner probably dreams of time on his/her own! Codependents need to learn to structure their time so they're not obsessing 24/7 over their partners, to give the poor guys some breathing space! It's much richer and lovelier to be together because both of you want to, than because one or both of you is desperately afraid of being alone.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wholeheartedly agree.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
So much depends on how you define words. I've read Dr Harley's article, and what he describes there is what I would call "interdependence." Where each complete person brings his/her strengths to the marriage, and protects him/herself from his/her weaknesses. In any marriage, it's most unlikely that the partners will have carbon-copy skills and talents, so each person is adding something to the mix, and the whole is definitely more than the sum of the parts.<p>That's the result of my day's meditation on this theme; take what you like, leave the rest! I'm happy because I have it sorted out in my own head now. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sounds good to me; what I fail to see is the connection between what you've said here and Codependency beyond using codependency learning to improve oneself to the point where we are more capable of contributing to the M and R.<p>If that is what you are saying, then how do you explain Dr. Harley's position on the codependency movement?<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Hey Space ~<p>We are not using codependency to recovery - we are recovering FROM codependency [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know. That's what I meant; recovering from codependency in order to then be able to recover in our M.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>LetsTry and juststartingover wrote fantastic posts!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree. What I don't see is how these very clear and logical ideas mesh with the fact that Dr. Harley appears to be against the Codependency movement. He's against it, and we have here many people who are showing how it IS valuable, AND it helps those who are trying to recover in their Ms.
So where's the catch?<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
So...let me get to my point. My point is that the typical sick reactions to others that is common for codependents of chemically addicted people are often seen on these boards too.<p>Were they co-dependent before their spouse had an affair? I don't know - some of them probably were, and it was probably a major factor in their spouses philandering. <p>That's because co-dependents are expert at love busting. And the absolute most frustrating part of it all is that most of them really don't think that they are doing anything wrong - they feel justified in what they are doing - as they dig themselves deeper and deeper, punching huge gaping holes in their spouse's love banks.<p>That's what codependents do. They completely focus externally - never for one second looking at their own actions, or if they do, not seeing anything wrong with what they are doing.<p>But anyway, even if one wasn't codependent before the affair, the absolute upheaval of reality, the emotional destruction, the complete loss of self-esteem is enough to cause someone to start behaving like a codependent. It's a natural coping mechanism in the face of complete utter disaster - just as in my case - it was a survival technique that I learned during my childhood. <p>Sadly, its a poor technique, and one that will destroy any chances of saving the marriage. Not only that, but more importantly, it doesn't help the individual either. Even if the marriage doesn't make it, the BS still has to go on with life. How does one cope with such absolute rejection? The answers that I found in the 12 steps were answers that gave me back peace, hope, self-respect, dignity, and control over my own life.<p>As it so happens, my marriage was saved. It was saved because *I* became a whole person. My changes made it possible for us to improve the relationship to a point where we didn't have to divorce. A relationship can only be as healthy as the 2 people involved!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I see your point perfectly, it makes sense, it's logical. Why, then, does Dr. Harley speak out against this which appears to be so good?<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Co-dependents can not POJA. Why not? Because the POJA requires honesty (which codependents are not) and requires self-knowledge of needs, requires a balanced taker and giver, and the ability to communicate those things directly without demands. Dr. Harley clearly points out that if one person does not honestly stick up for his or her own needs in a POJA negotiation, that the POJA isn't being followed. A codependent will either not be honest about their real feelings about a situation, or honestly not KNOW what their real feelings or needs are regarding a situation, OR will try to manipulate the feelings of their spouse in order to get the desired outcome. How can anyone negotiate with someone like that?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Completely agree. Makes perfect sense.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now. Lets get to the point about Dr. Harley's problem with so many people claiming to be co-dependent, and having their so called "recovery" sabotage marriages.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I beg to differ. This is not what Dr. Harley says in his article about codependency. He says that the movement is very valuable for addicts/alcohilics, but that the same rules DO NOT apply to broken marriages, and that therefore, the teachings of the movement do not apply to broken marriages.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...That's why the term codependency has such a bad reputation. Those of us who have made it over the whole boundary hurdle aren't nearly as noticable. We act like normal people most of the time [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think the term codependency has a bad reputation...what I do think is that what it teaches is being questioned as the cure-all for any and all types of dysfunctional behaviors, when in fact, it is best applied to addicts/alcoholics and those around them.<p>And I think that is EXACTLY the point Dr. Harley makes in his article.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So yes, if you act like a partially recovered codependent in a relationship, its going to completely destroy the marriage.<p>But it doesn't mean that one shouldn't learn those lessons, or that we should discourage anyone from learning those lessons.<p>As far as I am concerned, the faster every single one of us learns these lessons - recovering from our codependency to our spouses - be it emotional or chemical addictions that our spouses are struggling with - the faster we start healing and living again.<p>When that happens, the marriage has a chance. And even if the marriage doesn't make it, the person has a chance to go on to live a healthy fulfilling life, where he or she CHOOSES to drop boundaries in a trusting, loving relationship that is structured by the POJA. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree. Completely.
And pardon me for being so insistent, but still I fail to see how this meshes with what Dr. Harley says in his article.<p>He DOES NOT say that "partially recovered codependent(s)" are the problem with codependency and marriage recovery.
What he DOES say is that the codependency movement and its practice are not applicable to marriage recovery because those teachings were developed (and are effective) for other problems; addictions and alcoholism.

I'm suprised that you interpreted my posts as being personal attacks or criticisms of YOU, Spacecase. I certainly didn't intend that. I presented my point of view, as honestly as I could, and nothing was aimed at anyone specific. Nor was I being judgemental. My experience and viewpoint is all I have to offer.<p>What I see as the conflict here is that codependency and broken marriages are seen as two separate issues.<p>Well, sometimes they're not. Codependents get married... and they bring all their baggage with them. The other problem is that codependents often/usually marry addicts; that's all we know, that's the norm for us, so we feel comfortable with addicts. My present H abuses no substances. He is a workaholic. As in his whole life is structured around work, and he says himself his mental rut is as deep as the Grand Canyon. He's codependent too. His entire self worth and identity are directly related to his latest research, his latest paper. He can't just BE. He has to DO all the time. But he recognises that, and we're both becoming ever more aware and working together on ourselves. <p>I think Bramble Rose made the point early on that codependency diagnosis and therapy should not be used as a cover, an excuse or a methodology for normal people with intact boundaries. Somebody else posted a scenario of a pioneer woman driving the mules while breastfeeding her baby, loaded gun at the ready while her husband rests his wounded arm. Codependent? Not on your nelly! Interdependent. They need each other, they're working together for their mutual good and happiness.<p>To my mind, Dr Harley is against the "codependency movement" because just like any other movement, including AA, it can become a religion, a cult, an obsession. He's against the extremism that people find seductive; slogans, chants, complete self-centredness, greed, demands. As am I. I want to be centred in my self so I am stable and healthy. I don't want absolutedly everything to be "my way or the highway." I'm all in favour of interdependency, symbiosis, mutualism. <p>I'm currently working through a book that I find resonates very deeply with me; Charlotte Davis Kasl's "Many Roads, One Journey." Davis not only explores the basic issues of addiction and codependency, she also discusses the various therapies, including 12 step programs, and offers many useful tools. I am not entirely comfortable with Codependents Anonymous, which may be due to the very rigid, formal "feel" of the meeting I've been attending. I am also not entirely comfortable with 12 step literature, but I take from it what works for me and leave the rest. I have a new mantra: "I am enough and progress, not perfection." Two slogans that work for me!<p>Also, there's always been a problem for me with Emotional Needs. You see, my FWH's A was based on the codependent need to be NEEDED. When we did the EN questionnaire, he said that his ENs are all met by me to overflowing. The only thing lacking was he needed to be needed, and there is no one more needy than an addict.... XOW has bipolar disorder, won't take her medication, has wild mood swings, threatens suicide, couldn't live without him... XOW is an ex-girlfriend of H's, with whom he fell wildly in love some 12 years ago. He NEVER wanted to marry her, because firstly he saw her deep down as "a flake" and secondly because he wasn't actually happy with her. They were together in the sense that they lived in the same city and were a couple for 5 years. They couldn't live together; they tried it and it fell apart in a week. She didn't meet any of H's ENs as described by Harley. <p>She was rude and aggressive to H's family and friends, and his No. 1 EN is Family Support. Recreational Companionship? She demanded that he be at her disposal and service 24/7.
Sexual Fulfilment? Cold, selfish, capricious in bed.
Financial Support? A spendthrift whose credit cards are always maxed out. H is frugal, thoughtful, a compulsive saver.<p>And so on and so forth. H married me because his ENs are met by me. But she NEEDED him...<p>On these boards it's referred to as White Knight syndrome. And that's the reason MB doesn't work in these cases! The more the spouse strives to meet the ENs, the more s/he looks like somebody who doesn't NEED the WS. The WS NEEDS the BS, and often resents it. <p>H has now seen that I do need him. Not for survival, but because life with him can be so much richer, deeper, happier, more full of daily delights. And I am less INdependent; instead of yanking out the stuck drawer myself, I ask him to do it for me! <p>I've emailed Dr Harley to ask him to address this issue, seeing it is a big problem. I don't want to second-guess him or put words into his mouth! It's best that he explain his standpoint himself.

JSO;<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I'm suprised that you interpreted my posts as being personal attacks or criticisms of YOU, Spacecase. I certainly didn't intend that. I presented my point of view, as honestly as I could, and nothing was aimed at anyone specific. Nor was I being judgemental. My experience and viewpoint is all I have to offer.
What I see as the conflict here is that codependency and broken marriages are seen as two separate issues.<hr></blockquote><p>I just felt like everyone was bashing on me and my opinions when all I wanted was to clear up an apparent conflict. This was not directed at you in particular, but to the pro-codependency posters in general. No hard feelings! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To my mind, Dr Harley is against the "codependency movement" because just like any other movement, including AA, it can become a religion, a cult, an obsession. He's against the extremism that people find seductive; slogans, chants, complete self-centredness, greed, demands. As am I. I want to be centred in my self so I am stable and healthy. I don't want absolutedly everything to be "my way or the highway." I'm all in favour of interdependency, symbiosis, mutualism. <hr></blockquote><p>See, I don't interpret Dr. Harley's position like that at all. I think what he's saying is that the codependency movement has its place, and rightly so, in the lives of addicts/alcoholics and those around them, but that it does not belong anywhere else. And that the attempt to use it's methods and practices to "treat" numerous dysfunctions, among them broken marriages, is what is wrong.<p>I DO agree that a person suffering from dependency because he/she has lived with/married an addict/alcoholic SHOULD treat that dependency before attempting other "treatments" required in his/her life. Including recovering from a broken marriage.<p>What I am questioning is the "prescription" of codependency "treatment" for the BS in order to help them detach from the WS and not try to control them, which is what was recommended to me numerous times here, and the reason I did begin to read about codependency.<p>And on the face of it, it DOES make sense to me, but after pondering Dr. Harley's article about codependency, and his feelings about it, I thought it was worthwhile to explore the apparent discrepancy between his thoughts and what was recommended to me here.<p>I'm STILL not sure where I stand on this issue, and I hope Dr. Harley responds to you, as I believe that he can help us clear this up, or at least understand it better.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by juststartingover:
<strong> To my mind, Dr Harley is against the "codependency movement" because just like any other movement, including AA, it can become a religion, a cult, an obsession. He's against the extremism that people find seductive; slogans, chants, complete self-centredness, greed, demands. As am I. I want to be centred in my self so I am stable and healthy. I don't want absolutedly everything to be "my way or the highway." I'm all in favour of interdependency, symbiosis, mutualism.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is SUCH an EXCELLENT discussion. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I quoted you above JSO, because you say something that just makes me... shake inside! I have been around MB for nearly 3 years, and I have gone from embracing the concepts, to spitting on some of them, and back around again. <p>Believe it or not, I've been called a "Harley-ite" and told to quit spreading "Harleyisms" or "MBisms"... and if that isn't CULTISH, I don't know what is! <p>So, my point is that MB, love it as I do, definately has some addictive qualities that can border (depending on the PERSONALITY OF THE MEMBER) on cultism. Yeah, seriously.<p>And guess what? *I* am just the kind of member that has problems with becomming obsessed because... ding, ding, ding ... *I* am a CO-DEPENDENT PERSONALITY. <p>WHAT a surprise, eh? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Look at how many posts I have - over 5000. I also have about 2700 as Nyneve (a name I chose after my divorce, thinking it would help wean me out of here, instead I just kept posting my heart out, and realized that everything old is new again, and went back to my original name - convoluted, isn't it?).<p>OH MY GOD, I'M SO CO-DEPENDENT. I LIVE for this place, the people here... PEOPLE LIKE ME should NOT be here... yet I can't stay away!!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Again, I really do love many of the concepts - the POJA is genius, the EN's (for the most part) excellent, and this website THE TOPS! But, it sure is easy to get tangled up in the lives of others, and in living and **breathing** the concepts.<p>At least for me, a CO-DEPENDENT.

Hi Sheryl,
I'm so glad you came into this discussion, because you have so much to offer.<p>You touched on exactly the point I was trying to get to: you know, a few months ago on In Recovery, somebody posted something to the effect of: "I don't know if I'm allowed to do this, or should be reading anything else, seeing this is a Marriage Building website, but I read this in another book and it made sense to me...." She was actually AFRAID she was doing something WRONG by departing even a tiny bit from what she perceived to be MB principles... and I've seen it in the CoDA group I was going to. These are the rules, if you stick to these unswervingly you'll be okay, here's our literature. It's one of the traditions read aloud at each meeting: "We do not recommend external literature and we do not bring it into meeting." What I find most limiting is the No Crosstalk policy. I see it as No Feedback. I understand and applaud the idea that nobody should interrupt while a person is speaking, because that is indeed that person's truth and they need to say what they think without fear, but there's no open discussion, no opposing viewpoints, no richness of synergy. I do far better in the open group of ACA, where we don't interrupt, but do ask questions when we need clarity, and where we can say things like "Do you have any evidence for that?" and "Hey, that reminds me of..." It's a lowkey group because we're all diffident, but we've learnt to trust one another and can open up, even cry, show our anger, speak out our pain. It's not a pity party and we're not into blaming, though we do believe in accountability. We talk about the very real pain of abuse, and we forgive without denying our hurt. Then we are free to forgive ourselves. <p>Sometimes codependents find their identity in the party line. My son's serving 24 years for armed robbery, because his identity was "the group". My son is a drug addict and alcoholic. He made choices, decisions, took actions because he so much needed affirmation from "the group" and that was the group he'd chosen to hang out with, because of their common genetic heritage of substance addictivity. He's in recovery, and he says that BECAUSE he was caught and jailed, not DESPITE. I wish I could work out how to use the code stuff so I could do bold and italics because as it is my only means of emphasis is capitals, and that comes over as shouting, self-righteous and whatever.<p>That's the problem with codependency. One is so scared of doing something wrong, and right and wrong are defined for one by the group, the spouse, the political party, the incumbent government, the local church... "Group conscience" is a great concept, but can degenerate with appalling rapidity into "mob mentality."<p>I escaped substances by the luck of the genetic draw, but I do have an addictive personality. I'm compulsive-obsessive, perfectionistic and workaholic, just like my FWH! Speak of birds of a feather flocking together! Just look at our close friends and we're all the same under the skin!<p>That's why I think it's so valuable to explore many different paths, settings and ideas, keep stirring up the idea pot. A group can very quickly set as if in concrete. Also, every person is an individual and needs his or her own personal, tailor-made path through life, undertaken consciously and under one's own power.<p>Keep posting, Sheryl, keep troubling the waters of your soul. Remember the lovely Bible story of the house of Bethesda, where the sick and lame waited at the pool and when the angel came to trouble the waters, the first person in would be healed? I see many contributors on these boards as angels stirring up the waters.

Hi SpaceCase,
No hard feelings! I haven't yet heard from Dr Harley. Here's the text of my message:<p>"Hi, I'm a member of MB, my login name is Juststartingover. I'm writing because there's a thread which is raising a lot of questions for some of us; here's the URL<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=
018166&p=3<p>It has to do with your stance on codependency. There's some confusion as to how to interpret your article "How the Codependency Movement is Ruining Marriages." The thread clearly shows both sides of the controversy, and I would very much like to have you join in and moderate it. I think there is
much valuable stuff here, and am afraid that bickering and extremism may detract from the value of the discussion. Plus of course I have my own biases and have to fight the temptation to secondguess you and put words
into your mouth....<p>Thank you for this extremely valuable site."<p>You made a point that I missed: that people "prescribe" codependence work and sometimes it's not appropriate. I did make a direct statement to Honey, where I see an active alcoholic in rapid escalation process and an active enabler ditto, and am actually concerned for her and her kids. <p>I don't see codependency work as a universal panacea. And some of it is already embodied in MB principles: the EN and LB questionnaires are well-designed to get one thinking and aware of who one really is and what one's real needs are. Twyla came out and admitted that the first time she and her WSO did the EN questionnaire, she "cooked the books" and gave him false impressions by falsely rating her needs... I did that too. I tried to pick needs I thought my H wanted me to have, and boosted my actual level of satisfaction. Next time round I told the truth I'd uncovered in the meantime.<p>Note that the questionnaire asks you not only to identify and rank your needs, but offers four options for the answer:
My spouse gives me as much xxxx as I need, AND s/he does it the way I like it
My spouse gives me as much xxxx as I need, BUT s/he does not do in the way I like it
My spouse does NOT give me as much xxxxx as I need, but when s/he does, it IS the way I like it
My spouse does NOT give me as much xxxx as I need, and when s/he does give me xxxx, it is NOT the way I like it<p>The LB questionnaire asks you to honestly identify and rank the behaviours, attitudes, etc of your spouse that are actually draining of your lovebank.<p>Non-recovering codependents have a very hard time doing either questionnaire. That's where IC comes in, and MC too. And support from a group, whether it be here on the MB forum, or Alanon, or whatever mix works for the individual. One thing I have learnt is that real support is a far cry from blind validation....<p>I am so glad you started this thread!

Very quickly Space -<p>The Harley plan is fantastic for recovering the marriage.<p>One can NOT use the Harley plan on others outside of the marital relationship, and a healthy person can not use the codependent recovery concepts on the marriage.<p>However, a sick (codependent or addicted) person can not practice the MB principles, which is why Dr. Harley says that the addiction issues have to be dealt with first. It takes a healthy person to know how to apply the MB princples.<p>In an infidelity situation - there can be no work on the marriage while there is an infidelity active (addiction). So .... often ... many of us encourage working out our own individual codependency issues while waiting for a chance to work on the marriage. <p>Dr. Harley is pointing out that alot of people who are not dealing with addiction in their relationships often take the co-dependent questionairres or materials, and try to apply them to their own lives.<p>A healthy person who decides that they are codependent and starts trying to cure themselves of what would normally be loving behavior can wreak havoc on themselves adn their marriages.<p>Most of us here, because we are dealing with addiction, do have the qualifications for a codependency diagnosis. In order to save our marriages, we need to fix ourselves, survive our spouses infidelity and show our spouses our ability to love them anyway (Plan A). Its a tall order for a healthy person, much less someone reeling from the effect of someone's betrayal and addiction.<p>A marriage that hasn't experienced infidelity, and contains 2 healthy people having trouble loving each other, will not be helped by reading and practicing many fad codependency cures - their marriage will not form close compatibility, it will work to drive the 2 apart.<p>Does that make it more clear?<p>Personally, I find practicing the 12 steps, in addition to working on my MB principles and reading the 5 Love Languages really keeps me on track where I need to be personally and in my marriage.<p>My co-dependency nearly destroyed my marriage, and the cure saved it. But remember, I *AM* and was dealing with addiction.<p>Healthy people don't need to learn how to stop giving so much, or how to stop controlling...they need to learn how to love BETTER, and to become closer, not more detached from each other.<p>Thats really the whole point of his article.<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</p>

BrambleRose, I admire you and respect you for turning your life and your marriage around. <p>I don't however feel it's a good idea to make judgements as to who is copedendent and who isn't.

And exactly where in this entire thread have I said anyone but myself was co-dependent?<p>Are you refering to the fact that I said every BS here QUALIFIES for that diagnosis?<p>That simply means that every single BS here is in a relationship with someone in active addiction.<p>If you have ever read the 12 Traditions of Al-Anon you'll see the step where it says "The only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend".<p>In Al-Anon, the word co-dependency is rarely mentioned in the literature or meetings. But that's what every single person who walks in the door is dealing with. Do we judge or psychoanalyze them to see if they are really "co-dependent"? No. We simply say that living with active alcholism QUALIFIES them to join our groups as we work the 12 Steps to recover from the co-dependency that fills our lives.<p>Every single BS here meets the basic requirements to start attending either Co-Dependents Anonymous or Sexaholics Anonymous, or any number of recovery groups.<p>That is absolutely not a judgement on anyone else. It was simply a statement of fact, based on the fact that we are discussing wether or not Dr. Harley's princples are at odds with the co-dependency recovery movement - and I am taking the position that BOTH can help every single marriage here. <p>I have not at any point said: You, RoseyHue, are clearly co-dependent and need to go to a 12 step group. I *have* said this in the past to others who are clearly displaying very self-destructive behavior that is harming themselves, their children and their marriage. But not in this thread.<p>But this is also a board that one posts with the understanding that others are going to weigh in with their thoughts, opinions and advice - and want help. I don't go up to people on the street and say: Hey, you are a co-dependent!<p>Whether or not you personally choose or feel that you need to use any type of co-dependency recovery tools for your situation is up to you.