And btw, I couldn't disagree more with your articles posted on this thread. Both articles make biased, broad sweeping generalizations, lumping all recovery programs together and sometimes just flat out completely get the facts wrong about what is learned and encouraged in a 12 step program. <p>I particularly took offense to the attitude that these programs promote sexism, and encourage women in not coping and taking responsibility for their lives. And that somehow "The codependency idea offers an easy route to relief in this age of quick cure".<p>Quick? Easy? I don't think so. <p>As a result of doing the things that your articles derided, I have MORE self-esteem. I feel LESS inferior to men than I did when I started. I have more confidence, I am a FAR better parent, I am no longer living in chaos, and my relationships are all in much better shape. My marriage is recovering and for the first time in my life I am happy.<p>This took months and hours of unending blood, sweat and tears - facing unknown fears, raging anger, and years of severe dysfunction to relearn how to live my life. Words can not describe to you HOW HARD this was to do. At no point was I offered an "easy" way out.<p>I am a completely different person now than I was 4 years ago when I walked into an Al-Anon room. There are absolutely no words to describe the hell I went through to change and get to the point where I am now. And I literally owe my life to the 12 steps.<p>Anyone here who has seen me posting for awhile knows that I am the first person to stand for personal responsiblity, for making choices and decisions based on reality. I learned those things in a 12 step group. I learned how to STOP being a victim and how to live. Your articles insist that the opposite is encouraged.<p>Maybe that is true in some recovery programs. It certainly isn't the case in Al-Anon.<p>But you know what? That is apparently what you think about co-dependency and you don't see any need for that in your recovery plan now. <p>That's totally fine by me. Everyone finds their answers eventually, these are MINE.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Very quickly Space -<p>The Harley plan is fantastic for recovering the marriage.<p>One can NOT use the Harley plan on others outside of the marital relationship, and a healthy person can not use the codependent recovery concepts on the marriage.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
However, a sick (codependent or addicted) person can not practice the MB principles, which is why Dr. Harley says that the addiction issues have to be dealt with first. It takes a healthy person to know how to apply the MB princples.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
In an infidelity situation - there can be no work on the marriage while there is an infidelity active (addiction). So .... often ... many of us encourage working out our own individual codependency issues while waiting for a chance to work on the marriage. <p>Dr. Harley is pointing out that alot of people who are not dealing with addiction in their relationships often take the co-dependent questionairres or materials, and try to apply them to their own lives.<p>A healthy person who decides that they are codependent and starts trying to cure themselves of what would normally be loving behavior can wreak havoc on themselves adn their marriages.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Most of us here, because we are dealing with addiction, do have the qualifications for a codependency diagnosis. In order to save our marriages, we need to fix ourselves, survive our spouses infidelity and show our spouses our ability to love them anyway (Plan A). Its a tall order for a healthy person, much less someone reeling from the effect of someone's betrayal and addiction.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Here I'm not so sure. I don't think the statement "Most of us here, because we are dealing with addiction, do have the qualifications for a codependency diagnosis" is accurate.<p>And I think this is where the trouble lies. It seems that in many cases here at the MB boards, when BSs like myself are learning and struggling with all the issues, in many cases trying to change our spouse's behavior, and are not being able to detach easily, and because the attachment the WS has to the OP is often labeled as "addiction", then it is assumed, and reommended, that the BS learn about codependency. Thus, in effect, diagnosing the BS as codependent, or semi-codependent, or partially codependent.<p>It was at this point that I began to receive suggestions of reading about codependency; and I did.<p>And this is exactly where my questioning of codependency began. Because although I would agree that someone like me does need to somehow detach and stop being as controlling, in light of Dr. Harley's article, I was questioning whether codependency learning/practice was appropriate for me because there is no addition or alcoholism in my R.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Healthy people don't need to learn how to stop giving so much, or how to stop controlling...they need to learn how to love BETTER, and to become closer, not more detached from each other.<p>That's really the whole point of his article.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Partially correct. Because the article goes further than that. It states that not only should healthy people not use this treatment, but neither should people who are NOT in an addiction-affected relationship, even if they are too attached and controlling.<p>I think the "confusion" arises from the fact that during Plan A, BSs need to become more detached from their WSs, and they need to learn to be less controlling, and for these "ailments" it is assumed (or often recommended) that codependency treatment can be beneficial, and in part it might be, or something similar might be called for.<p>but, at least in light of his article, Dr. Harley believes that codependency treatment is not applicable unless there is also an addiction or alcoholism present.

I've been thinking hard about this debate and maybe I think we can begin to reach some conclusions. Let me know if you agree with these statements.<p>1. Codependency treatment is very useful and important for people involved in a relationship with an alcoholic or a drug addict, if they display the symptoms of dependency.<p>2. In a marriage or relationship affected by infidelity AND that involves an alcoholic or drug addict, codependency treatment is probably a pre-requisite for the partner of the alcoholic/drug addict if they display the symptoms of dependency.<p>3. The "addiction" of a WS to the OP does not necessarily qualify as an addiction in the sense that it does in the first statement.<p>4. If a BS in a M or R that does NOT involve alcoholism or drug addiction displays symptoms of codependency (attachment, control, etc.) it is probably better to treat those syptoms in a different manner than with codependency treatment.<p>5. During Plan A, a BS who shows signs of attachment and control for the WS should seek help with these, but not through codependency treatment, unless there is ALSO an alcohol and/or drug problem in the R.<p>Am I close?

BrambleRose, <p>I understand that these programs help some people. <p> The main thing I don't agree with is the theory that when the WS has an affair, this equals an addiction, which makes the BS a codependent. This takes all responsibility out of their hands. They could say they couldn't help having an affair because it was addiction, which to me is another justification.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by roseyhue37:
<strong>BrambleRose, <p>I understand that these programs help some people. <p> The main thing I don't agree with is the theory that when the WS has an affair, this equals an addiction, which makes the BS a codependent. This takes all responsibility out of their hands. They could say they couldn't help having an affair because it was addiction, which to me is another justification.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Beign addicted doesn't take away his/her responsability for becoming and beign addicted. It is ultimately the addicted individual that has to make the decision to continue with the addiction or ending it once and for all. Nobody else can or should make that decision because s/he has to be responsable for his/her own life.

coffee man,<p>I get your point and I agree that some afairs may be addictions. Some are not, so we're not doing anyone any favours by giving them an excuse.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by roseyhue37:
<strong>BrambleRose, <p>I understand that these programs help some people. <p> The main thing I don't agree with is the theory that when the WS has an affair, this equals an addiction, which makes the BS a codependent. This takes all responsibility out of their hands. They could say they couldn't help having an affair because it was addiction, which to me is another justification.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Apart from the issue of providing an "excuse" (which I think could be another thread entirely),
I think Dr. Harley's precise point is that the "addiction" a WS may have does NOT necessarily make the BS a codependent. And therefore it should not be assumed that Codependency treatmet is the answer

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by roseyhue37:
<strong>coffee man,<p>I get your point and I agree that some afairs may be addictions. Some are not, so we're not doing anyone any favours by giving them an excuse.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>A 'fogged' WS will always have an excuse for his/her affair. For example, blaming the BS for the affair is always a favorite of many a WS. Awarenes of an affair beign an addiction is irrelevant to a WS as far as finding excuses for it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1. Codependency treatment is very useful and important for people involved in a relationship with an alcoholic or a drug addict, if they display the symptoms of dependency.<hr></blockquote><p>I would agree with the following:<p>Treatment and recovery programs are essential for people involved in a relationship with someone suffering from addiction.<p>There is no "if" about it - I have never met anyone who lived in close proximity to active addiction without being affected. Maybe there are some individuals who have, but they would be very rare.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. In a marriage or relationship affected by infidelity AND that involves an alcoholic or drug addict, codependency treatment is probably a pre-requisite for the partner of the alcoholic/drug addict if they display the symptoms of dependency.<hr></blockquote><p>I would agree with the following:<p>In a marriage affected by both infidelity and other types of addiction, recovery and treatment programs are essential for both partners before recovery of the marriage is attempted.<p>Again, there is no "if".<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. The "addiction" of a WS to the OP does not necessarily qualify as an addiction in the sense that it does in the first statement.<hr></blockquote><p>Huh?<p>Well. I'll agree in so far as I do think that infidelity recovery for the marriage should be different than recovery with chemical/physical addiction. I'll get into more detail on that later.<p>If you are trying to say that infidelity isn't really as serious an addiction in how it affects those close to the addict, I will most definitely disagree. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>4. If a BS in a M or R that does NOT involve alcoholism or drug addiction displays symptoms of codependency (attachment, control, etc.) it is probably better to treat those symptoms in a different manner than with codependency treatment.<hr></blockquote><p>Hmm. I definitely don't agree. What is the goal of recovery from co-dependency? It is to live, think and behave like healthy people do. So why would the lessons be different? Further down I’ll list the things that co-dependents need to learn, and you can tell me if a BS in a non-chemically addicted relationship doesn't need to learn those things. (this response is getting longer and longer!)<p>I think you are getting individual recovery mixed up with marital recovery. It is definitely 2 different things. A BS and a WS both have to recover individually from the harm and hurt that they have done to themselves and each other during the infidelity, AND they have to rebuild and recover their marriage. 2 different objectives, with 2 different approaches.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>5. During Plan A, a BS who shows signs of attachment and control for the WS should seek help with these, but not through codependency treatment, unless there is ALSO an alcohol and/or drug problem in the R.<hr></blockquote><p>Again, I disagree.<p>I really think you are getting personal recovery mixed up with marital recovery. <p>Maybe you haven't ever read the 12 steps?<p>Now, do I think that your average BS should seek out a 12 step program? Personally, yes, I do. But, is it necessary? No, probably not. It's probably enough for the average BS only dealing with the addiction of infidelity, to get into personal counseling, and do some reading of some recovery material.<p>Also remember, for the BS, dealing with active infidelity and dealing with marital recovery are 2 totally different issues. While the affair is going on, and the attempt to Plan A is going on, a 12 step program can be very helpful for the BS to survive, to root out lovebusters, to become emotionally self-sufficient, and stay emotionally detached from what is a horrible abusive situation.<p>But when the addiction is over, and recovery begins, the BS has to drop the emotional self-sufficiency to allow the WS to meet his/her needs in attempt to become interdependent together. And since clearly there is mounds and mounds of hurt and distrust on both sides, this is almost an impossible task. In order to start practicing interdependence, the 4 Rules of Marriage need to take over from the 12 Steps – but NOT until the affair is over. You can Plan A, and work a minimal 4 Rules of Marriage (you cant POJA obviously, but you can do things like protect your spouse from your own lovebusters and try to meet needs) but a 12 step program or some other co-dependent recovery program can be VERY helpful to maintain individual survival.<p>HOWEVER – I still use the 12 steps to help me with marital recovery. Why and how? In order to practice the MB principles, I have to be a healthy human being. The 12 Steps keep me grounded personally, keep me focused on my responsibilities and my choices – making me someone that is better able to meet my husbands needs under the 4 rules of Marriage. For example – I have an eating disorder and I am overweight. My husband has an emotional need for a wife that is attractive. So…I use the 12 steps to work on my eating problems and learning to take care of myself – in turn, this means I am able to improve my ability to meet my husband’s need for an attractive spouse. <p>I just have to be very careful to make sure that I am applying the right concept to the right situation.<p>Ok, regarding #3.<p>With physical/chemical addicted relationships - the individual has keep very strong boundaries and strong emotional detachment. It means that a person involved with an active addict MUST become very good at self-sufficiency on an emotional level to survive. <p>The co-dependent in that relationship has absolutely NO control or effect on the addiction. As we say in Al-Anon: The 3 Cs. We didn't cause, we can't control, and we can't cure.<p>With infidelity, the BS *does* in most cases, play a role in causing and curing.<p>While the BS is not responsible for the ultimate decision by the WS to have an affair, and can not force/control the WS in anyway...the BS is responsible for meeting emotional needs and avoidance of lovebusting. If the BS has failed in that, he/she has helped set up the environment were the WS became vulnerable. There ARE things that the BS can do to decrease the likelihood of an affair. <p>So, in a chemical addiction situation, the co-dependent absolutely bears NO responsibility in any way shape or form.<p>But the BS often does. So, the BS has got to learn lessons regarding MARITAL recovery, changes in behavior to meet the WS needs.<p>However, in both cases, the personal recovery is the same. The BS has to learn how to rebuild self-esteem, how to love without enabling, how to have compassion but not caretake, how to take responsibility for what IS his/her responsibility, and how to survive another person’s destructive behavior without allowing yourself to be destroyed in the process. When it comes to marital recovery however, it’s a different story. <p>Now regarding recovery goals/lessons:<p>Co-dependents are expert at lovebusting. All FIVE of the lovebusters that Dr. Harley lists are crucial for codependents to learn to stop, in ALL of their relationships. <p>Doesn’t the BS need to do that too?<p>And what about the following doesn’t a BS need to learn? How does it not apply to the BS who is living with active infidelity?<p>Denial is our ability to lie to ourselves or deny the truth and reality of a situation. Denial is a major stumbling block to recovery. We hide what we feel and know when it is too painful to deal with and / or accept. The pain we feel is a direct result of fear and the total lack of a workable solution to the problem. We forget that in every situation we have choices, not always easy or nice or fair, but choices. Since we can’t see a solution, or don’t like the one we see, or are unwilling to make the choices we are faced with, we deny there is a problem. It is like being in hell yet saying "it’s not hot and I’m not here". <p>Honesty: What is the problem? What is the reality or truth of the situation; coming from a state of denial where we see things and hear things as we want them to be, whether we do this because we are afraid of facing the truth of a situation, or because we are trying to justify our thoughts, actions and reactions.. We gradually enter a state of realization of what is really happening. We start to live in the reality instead of the fantasy.<p>Humility: Our willingness to stop rationalizing and justifying our actions and becoming aware that what we have been doing in reality "doesn’t work". We begin to stop blaming others, we let go of self pity and start rebuilding our lives by being humble enough to consider new ways of doing things, new ways of acting and reacting. We let go of the need to have everything our way.<p>Open-mindedness: We become open to new ideas and suggestions. We practice willingness to do things differently, letting go of the need to be right and in control. We learn in open-mindedness to take action against our sick thinking. If we start taking the right actions (even if they feel uncomfortable) our thinking and feeling will follow in time.<p>Willingness: This becomes our ability to respond positively to change instead of fighting it. Being willing involves facing one of our greatest fears - leaving ourselves open and vulnerable.<p>Acceptance: Our powerlessness over people, places and things. Our powerlessness over anything but our own thoughts, actions, feelings and reactions. We accept that we can’t get people to "mind us" or force solutions just because it makes life easier for us. True acceptance of reality is our only source of serenity and peace of mind.<p>Acceptance is to “Live and Let Live” . Acceptance is to “Let Go and Let God” give Good Orderly Directions and solutions to the questions of our lives. We do not have to agree with something or even like it to accept it. Acceptance is not a seal of approval on unacceptable behavior. It merely means that we understand and surrender to the fact that we cannot change the behavior of anyone but ourselves. Acceptance is agreeing to the fact that we will not even try to do so. Each and every one of us is responsible ONLY for our own behavior and not that of others, as we have no control over others. Acceptance is not trying to change others, or force solutions on them. Acceptance is a state of being and not an action directed at others.<p>Resistance to acceptance is very painful. The more we try to change others, the greater the barrier in our relationships. The more time we spend in the fantasy of what we wish was, the more resentments grow. We must accept that we have not been given the “know best” ability by the management fairy. We rarely know what is best for ourselves, let alone another. Trying to force “solutions” will be met with rebellion, resistance, and resentment. At the same time we will become hurt, confused and “let down”.<p>Powerlessness means that we have no control of - that we are unable to produce a positive effect upon anyone or anything else. We do not have the power to get someone to change for us. Not through cajoling, tears, hurt feelings, rage, control or manipulation.<p>The 12 steps:<p>1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable. <p>By practicing Step One, I transform the character defect of dishonesty into the principle of Honesty.<p>2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
By practicing Step Two, I transform the character defect of despair into the principle of Hope.<p>3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. <p>By practicing Step Three, I transform the character defect of fear into the principle of Faith.<p>4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
By practicing Step Four, I transform the character defect of cowardice into the principle of Courage.<p>5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
By practicing Step Five, I transform the character defect of evasion into the principle of Integrity.<p>6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
By practicing Step Six, I transform the character defect of willfulness into the principle of Willingness.<p>7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
By practicing Step Seven, I transform the character defect of arrogance into the principle of Humility.<p>8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. <p>By practicing Step Eight, I transform the character defect of resentment into the principle of Forgiveness.<p>9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
By practicing Step Nine, I transform the character defect of irresponsibility into the principle of Responsibility.<p>10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. <p>By practicing Step Ten, I transform the character defect of complacency into the principle of Discipline.<p>11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
By practicing Step Eleven, I transform the character defect of impatience into the principle of Patience.<p>12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. <p>By practicing Step Twelve, I transform the character defect of selfishness and self-centeredness into the principle of Love.<p>Slogan for Step Three: Let Go and Let God<p>This slogan contains the principles of Steps 1, 2, 3, & 11. This slogan is not a license to sit down and do nothing ourselves; we must always do our part (the part we can do), and once having done our responsibility, then and only then do we turn it over and “Let Go and Let God.”<p>Trying to influence an outcome, to change someone who is not willing to change, holding on in the face of unbeatable odds, becomes a contest of wills. Self will versus God’s will.<p>There is no disgrace in bowing graciously to the inevitable. Perhaps our solution wasn’t the best one anyway. If we insist our will is best, it means we are still acting out and living in ego.<p>When we are no longer passionately inflamed, or defensively frightened, other paths open up, almost miraculously. The pain is not from “Letting Go and Letting God”, the pain is from our self will and ego run riot. When we hold on and insist on doing something ourselves, try to get our way, try to get the outcome we think is best, we are “playing God ourselves.” As humans in recovery, we are not qualified for the job.<p>
LIVE AND LET LIVE . . . Have a design for your own life and live it fully - at your own pace. Discover your shortcomings and eliminate them one by one so you can enjoy living, no matter what comes. Let others do the
same: avoid criticizing and interfering.<p>THINK . . . Taking the time to think and analyze can keep us from many errors and the troubles that result from impulsive speech and action.<p>FIRST THINGS FIRST . . . Sort out what is really important and attend first to that. This will create a sense of order and achievement and keep unimportant matters from distracting and confusing you.<p>EASY DOES IT . . . More is accomplished when we take a relaxed approach to every situation. Our grandfathers said it this way: “The more haste, the less speed.” Easy Does It is a big help in all problem solving.<p>JUST FOR TODAY . . . Regrets for the past - and fears for the future - are equally fruitless. In Al-Anon we try to live just one day at a time - and live that day well.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> (originally by Spacecase: I think Dr. Harley's precise point is that the "addiction" a WS may have does NOT necessarily make the BS a codependent. And therefore it should not be assumed that Codependency treatmet is the answer
<hr></blockquote> Well said. I agree.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>(TooMuchCoffeeMan:Awarenes of an affair beign an addiction is irrelevant to a WS as far as finding excuses for it.
<hr></blockquote> Good point. They would probably blame something else anyways.<p>It's interesting reading different points of view on this. Since this subject came up I find myself rethinking some of the beliefs I've always had, which is a good thing.<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: roseyhue37 ]</p>

BR wrote:
The co-dependent in that relationship has absolutely NO control or effect on the addiction. As we say in Al-Anon: The 3 Cs. We didn't cause, we can't control, and we can't cure.<p>With infidelity, the BS *does* in most cases, play a role in causing and curing.<p><p>I think you had it right the first time BrambleRose: didn't cause, can't control, and can't cure.<p>I've been in recovery from narcotic addiction for many years BR, and I like much of what you write about addiction and the 12 steps. It's when you juxtapose addiction recovery with MBs that you sometimes lose me [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>To me, something is either addiction, or it isn't. If an A is an addiction, then the three Cs apply absolutely. Now I know you have a clear understanding of the difference between personal recovery, and marital recovery as a BS BR, but maybe you might consider applying that distinction to the WS in the same manner.<p>To say that the BS participated in the condition the M was in at the time the A took place, is to say something that, when you think about it, has no significance. Of course both parties contributed to the condition of the M - it's a M. Millions of people participate in Ms, good, bad, and mediocre, and don't cheat. The WS's own S was living in the very same M yet didn't cheat. <p>Imagine for a minute a family that lives in a house. Like most houses, insects sometimes get in. Someone will leave a few crumbs on the counter and you'll see a little trail of ants. The W sees this and buys ant traps, but they don't really work. The H is bothered by the ants, but doesn't tell his W that her failed attempt at erradicating them has angered him. One day the H goes psychotic. He takes a candle and sets the house on fire. The H and W and their children are all seriously burned in the fire but they are rescued. Their house is in ruins. <p>In the aftermath what do you think are the significant issues? Sure, the W may feel guilty that she didn't anticipate her Hs pschosis, but should she? Don't most houses have a few ants?<p>David

I think all of these issues are very clear; the difference between personal and marital recovery, the value of Codependency treatment, etc.<p>What is not clear, and prompted my initiating this thread in the first place, is that Dr. Harley's article apparently differentiates between the addiction of drugs/alcohol, and the addiction of an A.<p>And while he clearly sees the value of codependency treatment for the first, he apparently does not for the second.<p>Others here believe otherwise, and therefore reach a different conclusion.