it's been since Jan 2002 that I have used MB (which is a GREAT resource and therapy vehicle).....and I need your great observations and advice again.<p>here is my story:<p>in June 2001 I started having an EA with a woman which quickly (after 1 month) turned into a PA because I was meeting all her unmet ENs, plus we have a lot in common: both like our labs (dogs), going to car shows, going to the drap strips, going to the shore and the mountains, and of course having great sex - which was used, as I look back, as a "fix" for all that was wrong with the world (the sex intensified after 9-11).<p>after a fight at the MC in Oct 2001, she called and said that her H had gotten violent and she was scared and had the cops help her get her stuff out of her house and then she and her dog moved in with me for about 3 weeks. <p>after a fight one night about normal "life" stuff, I told her if she wasn't happy here that she should move in with her brother (down deep I knew what we were doing was wrong so this is the way I pushed her away - back into her H's arms so she could decide who she loved more.)<p>we both couldn't stand the pain, so the PA went on till late Nov 2001 when I mailed a card to her PO Box and signed it love. she called me and asked what that meant. it was at this time that we both realized that we should break it off because we both were starting to have real feelings towards each other.<p>I guess we thought we could handle it, so we keep the EA (not much sex at this point) going thru Christmas 2001 - her and I got a tree for my house, decorated the house and bought presents for each other....tried to make it feel like "our Christmas". she didn't even buy any gifts for her H and she didn't open any of his gifts for her.<p>a side note: she is truely a beautiful woman with a good heart and never set out to have an A or hurt her H or me....she just got in that fog and didn't know how to get out. I also truely feel that we loved each other and maybe still do to this day - although that love is confused and repressed right now.<p>we weren't together Christmas or New Years, but Jan 2nd 2001 we met and I gave her her gifts (she had already given me mine) and I said I missed her a lot and was going to therapy and was going to get diagnosed for possible ADHD - I trusted her with my true feelings and what I was doing to try and "fix" myself for what I thought was wrong.<p>after that she became more distant and we had less and less sex, talked on the phone less, and emailed less. I detected this and for the next 3 months, desperately tried to get us to meet and talk. we did go ski-biking (which is really fun) together in Jan) and the next time we got together was Feb 15th (I had sent her roses to work earlier in week) when she came over to my house and we were intimate (but no sex) and she gave me a card that she signed "love" and I gave her a beautiful gold heart necklace with diamonds (I had also bought her a beautiful purse at Christmas time)<p>we then said how much we loved each other and discussed openly that I shouldn't wait for her and that I should date socially. when asked if she wanted me to fall in love with anyone else she said no with hurt in her eyes and I said it would be hard because I still love you.<p>since mid-Feb 2002 I had been on Remoron at night (an anti-depressant) and Adderal XR (to focus and slow the mind) during the day. in my opinion these drugs did not help and made matters worse because my mind then had time to REALLY think about missing her and the anti-d's made me do obsessive things like drive around trying to find her and cruise past her house, etc. so, I stopped them cold-turkey the end of March 2002 - and the obession stopped (I also informed her of this and that the drugs made me obsessive)<p>by mid-March 2002 my work was suffering, I wasn't happy anymore and all my friends and family were getting tired of hearing my "problem". she and I were only talking a little - mainly taking turns hurting each other leaving scathing v-mails on the cell phones and very hurtful phone conversations (remember: when there's no hurt, there's no love)<p>but the funny thing was that everytime we tried to end it for good, one of us would always break down - we didn't want to go thru the pain. I even tried ending it at her work because I wanted the pain to stop - but the sadness and fear in her eyes made me just say "please forgive me for what I've done and how I've hurt you and I forgive you also."<p>my contract ended the end of March (so I am between jobs) and I switched therapists (to a certified sex therapist and regular therapist). Since Jan 2002 I have also read relationship books, shadow-work books, what women want books, why men leave books. I've also listened to self-help tapes about relationships, the men from mars tapes, the road less traveled tapes. <p>In addition to that I've done transformational work where I learned my basic problem in life has been that I don't trust anyone - women especially...which is why I've always seeked out unavaliable relationships, and because I really don't trust women (or myself) I always negatively project the worst (which I make come true) so I remain safe and don't have to have a real relationship...I call this staying in my rut.<p>thru all this work, I've kept in contact with her to let her know that I am doing personal growth work (because it was after our fight when she said that "you really don't trust anyone" and "you are more controlling than my H" that I realized that I've heard this for too many years and was determined to "fix" this problem with myself once and for all if I was ever going to have a "real" relationship.)<p>I am happy to say that when I check with her each month that it is coming from a place of love, not neediness or hurt, and she knows that I still love and care for her and am there for her and would do anything for her. also in our last phone conversation she said that for now she is trying to work out her M with her H and that right now she is not planning on getting a D. and so there is really no relationship between us.<p>although this hurt me inside I wished her luck and said that although we can't be together (and are also not ready for each other) right now, that I would hope that after she is single and is ready that she would invite me back into her life.<p>through all my personal growth and introspective work these past few months, I've identified why we were drawn to each other:<p>- both our fathers are sick (hers just passed away in Apr 2002, I did send a card to her at work)<p>- she and I never had a good childhood (it was actually her step-father that died, and she never really had a mother). my father is a work-aholic and my mother was an alchoholic.<p>- we were both trying to heal each other thru sex and presents and doing fun things together<p>- after 9-11 (which screwed everyone up) we got only closer because we both felt safe in each others arms<p>- her H is very controlling and she wasn't getting enough EM or sex in her 18 year M<p>- he doesn't want to have children with her (she's 39 this Oct), and I will (I just turned 40 this May)<p>- he doesn't do her hobbies with her and I do<p>so here's where it stands:<p>we are both miserable (I can tell from her tone of voice) that we can't see each other and that we may never end up together. she knows I am here for her and I'll keep in contact (this contact somehow helps me lessen the pain and will allow me to slowly let her go).<p>we don't leave v-mails on the cell phones anymore and we don't email anymore - I call her about once a month at work so I don't have to wonder if she checks the v-mail or email. I understand that she cannot trust her feelings for me right now and can not give me any EM that I need from her.<p>I realize that she has to make her own decison and if she does get a D, that it is for her, not me or any OM - and that she will need time to find herself and figure out what she wants. <p>I also realize that if I am totally out of her life, that she may realize her true feelings for me and realize that she really isn't heppy in her M (she says it was over when he said no to childen a few years ago) and she will continue with the D (they had already drawn up the Property Settlement Agreement, and she has already left once).<p>the problem now is that given the reality that we may never be together (or see each other) again, I have been sad because I miss her, and mad at myself for having the affair and trusting her with my true feelings (not keeping it just sex) and showing her I loved and cared for her.<p>the other big problem (which as she said on the phone as "too much too fast") was that during the 10 month affair, we did everything together: went to the shore, went to her mountain house, went to the dragstrip, went to car shows, went to the mall, met from breakfast, went swimming and hot-tubbing at my house, played pool at my house, she cooked for me, cleaned the house, had sex with me, loved me, took care our the dogs, bought me presents....she truely loved me and I took her for granted and didn't respect her or trust her - this is what hurts so deeply: <p>I finally found a woman (forget the dynamics of the A for a moment) that truely cared for me, enjoyed my company, loved me, did stuff with me, was all what I was looking for in a woman.....and all I could do was not trust myself and push her away.<p>I know I am beating myself up badly and I know that she gave me "gifts" in the sense that now I know that there can be sex for just sex (which it was for 5 months), that I must have boundaries between sex and love, that I don't have to have sex just so women won't leave me, that a relationship built on just sex won't work.....but even though I realize she gave me these "gifts" and I am a better person for it, how do you stop:<p>- thinking about all the times you spent together when ever I do something that we used to do together?<p>- stop my mind from thinking about her all the time<p>- get my life back on track and get a job so I don't lose all I've worked so hard for?<p>- truely forgive her and learn to be happy and love again?<p>- go out on dates and not be still hurt by the A?<p>- keep her as a friend and not appear needy and drive her away further (in case there is a chance for us in the future)?<p>I know this was long, but I will very much appreciate all your advice and observations and I also appreciate you letting 3rd partys to post here because we are involved in the A triangle too and are hurt just as much as the H and W.

Hi 3rd party,<p>Your story... I'm sure you realize... is not unique. <p>I read this and felt sick. I have been in both places, so I know about this from all sides. Mostly, I want to say this to you: SHE CAN'T MAKE A DECISION AS LONG AS YOU ARE IN THE PICTURE. <p>Please do the right thing and end contact. Let her deal with her marriage problems without the added stress of her lover on the side. Neither of you will ever know if you were her "true love" (doubtful)-- or a crutch (probably)-- unless you do.<p>I know the love feels real. Maybe it is. There's been lots of debate around here about just that subject. But right now, you are the OM in this situation, and there is no spin that can make this right.<p>Best wishes...<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

hi new_beginning<p>thanks for your advice. you are right and my counselor and friends agree - she needs me out of the picture to make a clear decision. it is very hard for me to not have any contact with her, but she knows how I feel about her and that is enough for now. we are not ready for each other (may never be) right now and I realize she must get divorced and on her own before we can even try again. now somehow I have to move on....but how do you move on when your heart is still attached to someone?? I guess time will tell if it was real love or not, but she has to come back to me, I cannot contact or go to her anymore. thanks again.....any advice on how to move on would be helpful.

OMG...I had to read through a couple of times to make sure you were not the XOM.<p>Our divorce was almost final...and it was interference from the OM (and my personal weakness) that got us to that point.<p>You need to leave her completely alone...and if she re-contacts you with promises of a future...you need to turn her away. Even if she's divorced...she needs to learn to stand on her own two feet. That means you aren't her FRIEND, you aren't her CONFIDANT, you aren't there for her at all.<p>You need to work on moving on with your life. If one day she shows up divorced (for atleast a year) and interested in pursuing a relationship again....I'd still proceed very cautiously. She's got issues that need dealt with before any other relationship will work. The same goes for you.<p>There isn't a magic pill you can take that will make it easier. It's a decision to do the right thing....both for yourself and for her. I wish my OM had had the strength to leave me alone...but unfortunatly neither of us did. We were weak and selfish and the consequences were great.<p>Do the right thing...do it one step at a time.

Confused,<p>I had to read this a few times and I am not sure why you are really here, but if you want advice here is some. Remove yourself from this woman's life right now. Why? <p>One, what you are doing is immoral and wrong.
Two, what you are doing is hurting you, the WS, and her H. <p>Three, you are too delusional to make a rational decision. Why do I say that?<p>Read this quote from you <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I guess we thought we could handle it, so we keep the EA (not much sex at this point) going thru Christmas 2001 - her and I got a tree for my house, decorated the house and bought presents for each other....tried to make it feel like "our Christmas". she didn't even buy any gifts for her H and she didn't open any of his gifts for her.<p>a side note: she is truely a beautiful woman with a good heart and never set out to have an A or hurt her H or me....she just got in that fog and didn't know how to get out. <hr></blockquote><p>Hello, a woman that is a good hearted woman doesn't ignore her H at Christmas or not open his presents. You really don't see how cancerous this relationship is.<p>If you were ever correct that she was a good hearted woman, then you can see how your affair with her has ruined that. <p>If she never was a good hearted woman, then you are fool and clearly cannot tell a good person from a bad one.<p>Confused, there is no reason to be confused. You have no business with this woman, plain, clear, and simple. Leave her alone, no contact, nothing and see if perhaps you can find woman that is not married to date. I know it would take guts on your part, but available women are not poisonous, but this relationship is.<p>Please think carefully about what I have said.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

thanks for all of your advice. yes, I have picked unavailable women for serious relationships - partially because they were safe and I could not get hurt (but I got hurt even more...ironic isn't it?). I have been a bad judge of people - particularly women in general...I was taught not to trust people - women especially (the therapist and I are trying to de-program that emotional wiring) I also didn't think I deserved a real relationship and I also had/have a fear of intimacy.<p>I got really hurt in this past A because she was the first women who appeared to love me and care for me...and I "fell" for her. I DO realize that I have to do self-care right now and do things for myself and get a job and treat myself better and I AM able to have a real relationship.<p>the other thing I've done in the past is rush into relationships and have sex way too early and try and PLAN relationships - I've since learned that you can't plan relationships, they just happen. So right now, we've broken off ALL contact (though I think about her and cry sometimes when stuff reminds me of her) and I just going thru day by day and doing fun and different things for myself.<p>I am also trying to date socially so I can just learn about other women instead of being focused on me all the time. I also have to learn (the hardest thing yet) that sex can be just sex OR it can be love....but I don't have to have sex so the woman won't leave me and I don't have to marry them or let them move in if we do have sex.<p>as you can tell, I have a lot of issues to work thru which I am commited to doing. thanks again for your advice and pointing me in the right direction.