There was a very unexpected development in my situation yesterday.
For those familiar with my story, I had gone to my wifes apt on monday to spend the evening. I hooked up my wife's cable modem, had a nice dinner, and dropped off my daughter. It was a very pleasant evening, except for when I left, my daughter wanted to come with me and got very upset.
Anyhow, while I was there, my wife let me try a new sonic toothbrush she got from work. I liked it so much that I asked her to get me one of my own. She called yesterday to tell me she got it, and that if I'd like, she'd meet me at my house after work just before I leave to go get my D at daycare. I told her that was fine, and that I'd see her at 4pm unless something came up.
Well, sure enough, something came up and I couldn't meet her so I called her around 2:30.....she asked me if everything was Ok, and I said yeah, but I'll have to get the toothbrush from her some other time.(without going into any explanation as to why I couldn't meet her).<p>She called me again at around 3pm, crying, asking me what was wrong. I paused and said nothing really, but she kept asking. I told her it was nothing for her to worry about, she was still upset, and asked me to call her later. She then asked me if I was seeing someone....I said "of course not".<p>Anyways, I was finally on my way home at 4:30, when my cell phone rang..it was my wife. I didn't answer it, and she left a message saying that she'd left the toothbrush on the front porch. I could hear that she was still upset.<p>So, I pull onto my street 15 minutes later, and there she is parked in my driveway, waiting in her car. I got out and asked if she was ok...and she started crying. She said she thought I was wondering why she hadn't filed for divorce.
I took her into my arms, hugged her, and told her that my feelings for her hadn't changed.....that I was still in love with her. Still sobbing, she said she was sorry 5 times told me she'd been doing alot of thinking, and soul-searching, and begged me not to give up on her.
Anyways, a few more hugs and a kiss later, she left for home, and I left to get my D at daycare.
My wife called later on last night to thank me for a nice night monday, and said she was glad we talked yesterday afternoon.<p>Now...I'm reading NOTHING into this. Nothing about the situation has changed for me.
However, the last 3 days have been the first that my wife has seemed to show genuine remorse. It appears that she finally grasps the reality of her situation.
I will be cautious from here...and continue to plan A for a bit longer.
Thoughts/opinions anyone????
Thanks.

Your signature says considering Plan B. Maybe you should take this out because this is very positive news. I think whatever you are doing is having a big affect. IMHO: Plan B is only the final action when Plan A has no effect. Your Plan A is working here.<p>I think your WW's A is dying slowly, but I think you are right for guarding your feelings. WW's can be big Yo-Yo's for a good two or three months until the A is finally finished its course.

You blew it my friend. When she asked you whether you were going out with anyone you should have told her very nicely that it was none of her business. Telling her that you will always be there for her whenever she returns is basically giving her permission to continue her affair with the OM. Now she can be confident that since you are going to stick around she can see where her relationship with the OM is going. She has the best of both worlds. A lover and a loving husband. You need to change your approach. She needs to see you as someone who is getting ready to move on. She needs to start imagining that you are going out with other women. There is nothing more attractive than a man who is desired by other women. When you cancelled your meeting with her the message that she received was that your life did not revolve around her any longer. She became scared that you were not going to there if her affair with the OM ended. You need to continue being mysterious and evasive about what you are doing. Stay out at night. Go away for weekends. Take a 2-3 week vacation to some exotic resort. Let her imagine that you are frolicking with other women. Cancel meetings with her. Come across as a person who has started living life and doing well without her. What you need to remember is that her words and tears mean nothing.
It's what she does that means anything.

Quick observation and question(s). [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Why would maximus want his wife to think he was okay with her not home? Why be mysterious? It seems to me she then would only come back because she didn't want anyone else to have her H if she couldn't have him. Why want her back on those terms? Isn't that beinging a little deceitful too? Why not be open and honest to save this marriage? Honesty and communicatioin is the only way to go. But then again, this is just my opinion. <p>RW

I agree with Rob's Wife. IMHO: I do not believe that Plan A should be a manipulation. Manipulation, in my opinion, will probably work just as well but it is dishonest and will result in misinterpreted feelings and a relationship which is based on fraud instead of solid rock. Plan A should be expressions of the heart not deceit.<p>IMHO: You are doing a great job!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The A will eventually end and I would hate for your WW to find out once you are back together that you were manipulating her. As I have said in the past, you always have to ask yourself are you manipulating or loving.

I don't have time right now to point out why I'm saying this, but tomaz is missing the point of PLan A. You would never want to imply to your spouse that you are having an affair of your own. Plan A is NOT about being a doormat, but is about meeting the EN's of the WS; INCLUDING honesty and openness, and communication. <p>Rob's wife, You are right. Don't question honesty. <p>There is a difference between mysterious, and being deceitful. Ignoring the phone when WS calls every now and then is ok. Preparing yourself mentally for life alone is ok. But flaunting freedom or taking exotic vacations is not.<p>THere's a time and a place for being tough, and showing the WS what life is like without the marriage. THat's called Plan B. Maximus is in Plan A.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Maximus is trying to save his family. As things stand right now his wife has settled into a lifestyle with no incentive to change. She sees that her husband has changed in good ways and that he wants her back but this has done very little to motivate her to return. Remember this affair has gone on for several months in which he has waited patiently for her to make up her mind. The emotional rollercoaster continues. The only person manipulating anyone is the wife. She has made sure that everyone caters to her whims. What I am saying is that maximus needs to stop pursuing his wife and making himself available to her whenever she calls. I did not say that he should go out and date. He should detach and show that he is unwilling to live his life around her while she is carrying on an affair. If she thinks that he is seeing other women that is her problem. She has no right under the circumstances to ask maximus where he is going and what he is doing. How is that being manipulative and dishonest. In my opinion Plan A is not meant to condone a continuing affair. It is meant to show the betrayer the positive changes in the bs that will make the marriage better if the affair stops and the marriage is allowed to continue. Plan A is not meant to be permission for the wife to continue her affair for months or years. Plan B should be implemented if the affair continues to allow the bs to learn to detach and to prepare emotionally to move on with his life with or without his spouse. Plan B gives the betrayer notice that the spouse will not put up with any further disrespect and emotional abused. At the same time it shows the betrayer what life will be like after divorce.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: tomaz ]</p>

Just my 2 cents. I'm with dreamland on putting the Plan B on hold for the moment. It sounds like your W is waking from her fog induced dream. Your Plan A is working so don't give up hope!<p>I also think that you did the right thing on being honest with her. Manipulation is never the answer nor is lying. <p>Listen to your heart! I'm praying for you.

Max;
This is a very positive development for your quest, and I think you handled it very well. Good job!<p>And don't underestimate the "size" of the opening in that thick fog (from your thread title); in my WW's case the openings have been FAR, FAR smaller...a word here, a "you're right" there, nothing as dramatic as what you got; so count yourself among the lucky ones in that!<p>Now, don't expect it to last forever or not change back to what it was before, it probably will. BUT ever so slowly, as the fog lifts, sometimes for a few moments, sometimes longer, you will begin to see signs like this one, and they all point in the right direction. Keep up what you're doing, it's working.<p>Tomaz...well, all I can say is that in my humble opinion Tomaz is a resentful BS who doesn't get it at all, and believes that retribution is more important than recovery...you know what's important to you, Max...keep doing it.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Max, that is good news!
I told you that you should keep up the Plan A. Here's your sign that things are "working". You are right to be wary though.
Things could get worse before they get better. (Belive me I wish that wasn't true.)
Just remember this event. Keep it for the strength it will give you.
People much wiser than me are saying the same thing. You are doing good.<p>tomaz, I understand your point of view, but I can't help but think you are missing the very big point of being honest. Sure Max shouldn't always be available for his wife, but he shouldn't be dishonest about what he's up to. Remeber that at some point Max and his WW will be in recovery. Max will want his WW to be honest about where she has been during the course of the day. You don't want her to pull a "well you never told me where you were" on him. JMHO<p>Feeling Lost

Tomaz; I'd be curious to hear your story...no signature to indicate anything about you, no threads you've started...tell us about your successes with your methods.

WOW!!! I'm so glad to hear of that news! Your situation sounds very much like mine. It was my H being a nice guy, a FABULOUS and caring father, and continued efforts as my FRIEND that brought us to that very point. I agree that you need to keep BOUNDRIES, but being honest about still loving your wife is not the wrong thing to do! And I agree with space, that's a pretty big hole in that fog!! WHOO HOO!!! I hope it only gets better!

Thanks for the support and input everyone.
I would like to comment on some of the responses as well;<p><<<tomaz-- You blew it my friend. When she asked you whether you were going out with anyone you should have told her very nicely that it was none of her business.>>> <p>I thought about that....however, IMO, that response sort of implies that its possible that I am seeing someone. At this point, I'm trying to be as honest as I can....and not play games like that.<p><<<Rob's Wife --- Why would maximus want his wife to think he was okay with her not home?>>><p>Thats not exactly what I want her to think.
Right now, I'm living my life as best I can, basically without her. I've told her that.
She knows how much I care for her, and how much I want to save our marriage, but at the same time, I don't want to make her think all I do is sit home and pine for her.<p><<<dreamland --- I agree with Rob's Wife. IMHO: I do not believe that Plan A should be a manipulation. Plan A should be expressions of the heart not deceit.
IMHO: You are doing a great job!! The A will eventually end and I would hate for your WW to find out once you are back together that you were manipulating her. >>><p>Again, I've been totally honest with her. I'm just trying not to be TOTALLY available to her.
I've never told her anything that isn't the truth regarding my feelings for her. During the first few months of this ordeal, I tried to drag things out of her. Now, when we talk, I'm trying to say less and get her to talk more. At this point, I'd rather hear about how she feels in her words, rather than see how she reacts when I tell her how I'm feeling. Yesterday is the first time in a while that she's really communicated to me how she's been feeling.<p><<<Faith1 --- You would never want to imply to your spouse that you are having an affair of your own.
There is a difference between mysterious, and being deceitful. Ignoring the phone when WS calls every now and then is ok. Preparing yourself mentally for life alone is ok.>>><p>I agree completely Faith. I want my wife to know that I will live my life. She knows I'd choose to live it WITH HER...but I'll live it either way.
She calls me very frequently (which I don't mind), however, I don't want her to think i'm always sitting by the phone waiting for her to call.<p><<<FeelingLost --- Max, that is good news!
I told you that you should keep up the Plan A. Here's your sign that things are "working". You are right to be wary though.
Things could get worse before they get better. (Belive me I wish that wasn't true.)>>><p>Absolutely. I see yesterday as about the first 10 strides of a marathon. Still a long way to go down this road. I have decided to put Plan B on hold for a while longer, and see how things go for a few weeks. Its been 3 and a half months since D-Day....so another few weeks can't hurt.<p>Thank you all for your input and support. Its been very helpful to me.

Hi Max,<p>IMHO, I think you did a good job. She seems to be showing signs of coming around and that is what they are, just signs. You are wise not to jump up and down at least, not yet. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>These are small steps which may backslide a bit but for now, they are in the right direction. Let the confusion be on her part. You keep headed in the same direction as you are. <p>U didn't blow it, you let her see that you are able to move forward with or without her. You also kindly stated your preference of her being by your side and as one who appears to be adhearing to standard WS patterns, your actions confuse her. Let that be for now. They don't confuse the rest of us. LOL!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Tomaz, U sound a bit wound up and angry. Can you please share your story? Anger is part of what a BS and yes, the WS goes through. Very normal occurance. How we individually handle it is the important step. <p>I tend to be a bit blunt myself at times but I try very hard to give the benefit of the doubt before I level that final blow. I also run by the rule of 'say what you mean and mean what you say.' My dad taught me that and it has worked so far. So trickery is not healthy. However, you don't have to expose yourself to the one holding the gun. That leads me to another wise saying from a still wise one: "Be cautious as serpents, yet innocent as doves". Can't argue with that one eh?<p>Take Care,
L.

Maximus,
You are doing the right thing...it took me many more months than you to start getting positive signs...and today, 9 months after DDay...a really good one!<p>Check out my post from today on page 18 of "Affairs that don't end..." click below:

Well.....Its been very quiet since wednesday.
Have talked to WW every day since...besides the fact that she tells me she loves me everytime we talk, not much going on.
I went to a party yesterday and many of my WW's co-workers were there. Talked to WW last night and she asked me who was there.
I said "lots of them" and left it at that. She sounded a bit irritated because some of the people she works with have been giving her alot of flack for this whole situation.
But, all in all, its been very quiet.

Hey Max,<p>I've been wondering how your were doing. I was gonna post to see how you've been, you must have read my mind though.<p>Sounds like things are in bit of a lull for now. Unfortuately things take time. Take the small blessing that she tells you that she loves you and gain a little strength from it. Hopefully she'll come out of the fog completly so that you 2 can begin to recover. <p>In the meantime keep doing things to entertain yourself. Going to the party sounds like fun. Don't know if I'd want to bump into my WW's coworkers since they seem to know some of what is going on. (Why do other people always seem to know more than we do?)<p>Get out and see a movie. The Sum of All Fears is pretty good. Lot's of action. If you like Sci-Fi the new Star Wars is good. The new flick with Tom Cruise looks like it'll be pretty good too.<p>Just do anything that will take your mind off your situation for a little bit. I know that you work around the house and stuff, but that always makes me think of my W, and lately that makes me sad. <p>Until today it had been over a week since I had any contact with my W. Today we chatted briefly. No real discussion about us. More of a how are you? She's getting another job (YEAH! OM is a co-worker) I want to jump for joy and post an update, but at the same time I'm a realist. My W getting another job while she is still with OM could mean that she's having some problems at work because of her A. <p>Life is just so darn confusing!!<p>Gotta get back to work. I'll check back later.<p>Feeling Lost

<<<FeelingLost --- Sounds like things are in bit of a lull for now. Unfortuately things take time.>><p>Thats for sure. I'm just unsure of how much time there is. I know in my mind that I can't live like this indefinately. <p><<<In the meantime keep doing things to entertain yourself. Going to the party sounds like fun. Don't know if I'd want to bump into my WW's coworkers since they seem to know some of what is going on. (Why do other people always seem to know more than we do?)>>><p>I know.....problem is that I've always been close to some of her co-workers. Her boss is actually a real close friend. I think my W was concerned that I'd tell all her co-workers my side of the story. I said nothing to anyone, and none of them even asked. I have told her boss whats happened, and he supports me.....but doesn't want to get involved which I totally understand. I go over to his house once a week and the subject of my W never even comes up.<p><<<Get out and see a movie. The Sum of All Fears is pretty good. Lot's of action. If you like Sci-Fi the new Star Wars is good. The new flick with Tom Cruise looks like it'll be pretty good too.>>><p>I took my daughter to see StarWars and Spiderman
recently. Both movies were good.<p><<<Until today it had been over a week since I had any contact with my W. Today we chatted briefly. No real discussion about us. More of a how are you?>>><p>....and you are still in plan A aren't you? Thats got to be tough when you only speak to her once a week or less. Hang in there bud. Thats all we can do. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Thats for sure. I'm just unsure of how much time there is. I know in my mind that I can't live like this indefinately. <hr></blockquote><p>No you can't live in that situation indefinately. None of us can. All we can do is Plan A our butts off and work on being ready for Plan B if our WS's don't "magically" snap out of the fog. <p>I don't know if you've been following J.R.'s story or not, but here is a quote from his most recent thread.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tmmx:
The MB guidelines advise that you start plan B not on a low note, but at a high point of plan A to leave the best possible impression. So this is perfect!<hr></blockquote><p>J.R. is about to go into Plan B with his WW. But it seems that he's going into Plan B leaving a truely great impression on his WW. <p>I can only hope that I can be so lucky. It is really tough for me not being able to just pick up the phone and call my WW. It's almost as if she is Plan B'ing me. Which would be ok if I was still having an EA. I'm not though. I figured out that what I was doing was wrong and that I had to end it before it went any further. <p>My WW is the most important person in the world to me. I'm scared that this separation will be the end of my M. <p>I'm starting to realize that I will be ok without my WW. I also know that I will be great with her. <p>For now all I can do is hope that with my WW's new job she will start to find herself again. Maybe without OM around all the time she and I can start talking more. (As I understand it he has forbidden her from contacting me.) <p>Sorry Max, didn't mean to hijack your thread. I guess I just needed to let some thoughts out of my head.<p>It's good that your friends are staying out of your business. My best buddy was telling me to D my WW, and fight for my stuff. I told him to cut his crap and let me fight for my M. Now we harldy talk anymore. Oh well.<p>I'm glad to hear that you are spending quality time with your D. I don't have any children so I can only imagine how important it is to take care of thier needs.<p>Orchid recently posted a link to an old thread of hers Here If you read through it you will find that they start talking about children. Give it a look-see. You might find some info that will help.<p>Take care Max. You hang in there 2.<p>Feeling Lost

<<My WW is the most important person in the world to me. I'm scared that this separation will be the end of my M. >><p>Thats what I thought as well. I told my wife beforehand, that once someone moves out, its the beginning of the end. I guess it doesn't have to be, but it sure makes things tougher IMO.<p><<<I'm starting to realize that I will be ok without my WW. I also know that I will be great with her. >>><p>I've been feeling the same way. Right after D-Day, I didnt think I'd ever be ok again. As time has passed, I've bounced back and feel really good about myself again. I want to save my marriage more than anything in the world, but I know that if it doesn't work out, I'll be OK. <p><<<Sorry Max, didn't mean to hijack your thread. I guess I just needed to let some thoughts out of my head.>>><p>No problem. Thats what this place is for. <p><<<It's good that your friends are staying out of your business. My best buddy was telling me to D my WW, and fight for my stuff. I told him to cut his crap and let me fight for my M. Now we harldy talk anymore. Oh well.>>><p>Well, some of my friends are telling my to move on, file for D, etc.........
But I try to make them understand that I still care about my wife, and that I have moved on in my life in many ways. Right now, I'm livivng for myself, and my little girl.
Besides, even if my wife was to call me tomorrow and tell me she wants to reconcile, I wouldn't let her move back in right away. I'd date her for a while.....get to know her again....try to rediscover the bond that brought us together 8 years ago. <p><<<I'm glad to hear that you are spending quality time with your D. I don't have any children so I can only imagine how important it is to take care of thier needs.>>><p>It really is. My parents separated 3 different times, and finally divorced when I was 12. I got little emotional support from either of them back then....so, I'm bound and determined to make it different for my daughter!!!!<p>
<<Take care Max. You hang in there 2.>><p>Same to you F.L.