This is my 2nd post. My H is involved in an EA. Denies this. Says she is just his best friend. I decided to list the reasons I call this an EA.
1. They take break together at work almost everyday.
2. He started to go on bus trips to gamble once a month with co-workers. She was with them. Then in November they went by car alone (The night before this trip, I jokingly said I was going to go and he looked scared and said there was no room in the car as 2 other coworkers were going, I laughed and said I was kidding. So he lied to me. Later H said she would not have gone if I had gone). When they wanted to go in Dec., I said I was going to go too. She wouldn't go because I was going. (She knows I don't like her)
3. H had her vacation schedule in his briefcase.
4. H had a copy of her weekly schedule (he is her supervisor, used this excuse).
5. H shares a locker with her on the work floor.
6. H wants to continue going on these trips with her because he likes to gamble with her. (I won't allow this, H had said he many do it anyway.)
7. H told me the witch told him she knows he has feelings for her, but she would never leave her H (although she says her H doesn't treat her well)
8. I called the witch and told her she was the reason we were in counseling She punished my H for it by not speaking to him for several wks.(they are speaking again, although he didn't tell me)
9. H used to share info about her when he was trying to convince me that there was nothing between them (just best friends). Since she started talking to him again, he always tells me he will not discuss her with me. I think she is telling him not to discuss her with me to spare me.
10. H recently gave her 41 lottery tickets for her 41st birthday. (I found out accidentally)
11. H says we are a lot alike. Hard workers. The resemblance ends there. She has cheated on her H at least once since she knows my H. That was at the beginnng of friendship with H. My H didn't talk to her for a while after that(said she should go back to her H).
12. I only picked up on their close relationship when they started to want to go gambling so often. Prior to this, I had heard her name, but thought it was just a co-worker who may have had a crush on my H. I never ever suspected my H had an interest in her.
13. H has admitted to me that she is a floozey because she is always flirting with men. She told me when I called her that "All my friends are male, I have no female friends"
14. H can't explain his feelings for her, just that she is his "best friend". They talk about everything. They share info about each others marriages. They supposedly try to help one another in that area. (innocent!!)
15. The card that H sent her for her birthday was signed Love ya. No signature. Says he signs cards to many of his female coworkers that way.
16. This witch has been his friend for almost 12 years that they have worked together. I did not know this.
17. 11 yrs ago they went out in his car several times to drive around & talk.
18. Also around this time they went out to spotlight for deer.
20. 10 yrs ago they went fishing together and took my son.
21. I didn't know about #18 & #19 until recently. I knew about #20 at the time, but not until after the fact.
22. When I asked H to quit his job. He said he would still find a way to see her.<p>Now his relationship with me.
1. He treats me well.
2. Our sex life which was bad for 2 yrs because of my health, has been great and getting better every day for the last six months since I got help for it.
3. Always remembers birthdays and holidays with very nice gifts.
4. Loves to do things with me.
5. Took very good care of me 4 1/2 yrs ago when I battled cancer & still does.
6. Tells me he loves me every day.
7. Tells me he will never leave me.
8. Makes sure we have money to pay bills.
9. Has done anything and everything I have ever asked until I asked him to give up the witch.
10. I love this man very much, but I have begun to wonder sometimes if I am still 'in love' with him because of all the pain I have endured since the realization that he is addicted to this witch.
11. I think he wants us both. She probably was meeting needs that I wasn't, but he says no and can't tell me any needs she meets. I have started to gamble with him, but I know he would still like to gamble with her. <p>2 wks ago I tried to talk to him about the discovery of the birthday card. He refused to talk to me about it. He didn't want to fight. It did indeed become a big fight. I tried to come to a compromise with him. I said I would accept his friendship with her as long as it remained only at work. I told him he could not go away gambling with her or anywhere else and that I didn't want him to give her any more gifts. In return I would not bring up her name thus avoiding further arguments about her. He said he could not agree to that. I became almost hysterical crying and begging and I started to drink to feel better. The fighting and arguing went on for a couple of hours. Finally I had had enough. I started to get dressed to leave. I had decided I should leave this marriage. Then it was his turn to become extremely upset, saying I was leaving him and our marriage and that if I left him I could not come back. After a while he said alright I'll give her up! When I asked him if he meant it, he couldn't say yes. Eventually he said it again. We made up and he has been treating me very lovingly. However, I don't believe he has given her up. This addiction to her is too strong. He feels he can have this girl in his life because she would never leave her H for him and he would never leave me for her. In the meantime, he doesn't understand what it is doing to me and how dangerous to our marriage it is. I feel completely betrayed. We had a good marriage for the last 6 or seven years of our 26 yr union. The first years of marrige we were raising a family and did not have the closeness we developed in these last years. After the way he supported me through all my health trials, I felt so secure and loved by him, I never would have thought this girl was in his life then. I think when they started going gambling once a month between July 01 and Nov 01 things began to change. He says they have always been close, but why did I only pick up on it in Nov 01.
This has been a long and rambling entry, but I'm looking for guidance and support. I have the HN/HN book as well as Lovebusters and Fall in Love/Stay in Love. I really think Dr. Harley is correct, people can stay together with work, but my H doesn't think there is a probem. For the last 2 wks I haven't uttered her name, but I think she is always there like a ghost between us. A very dear friend has expressed surprise that I am putting up with all this. She told me that everytime H hurts me I raise the bar for him and accept it thinking that this will be the last time. She has a point. Even though I am convinced this is an EA I guess because he has not physically betrayed me I keep struggling to understand him. I'm so afraid that he will let our wonderful life together slip away. How do I handle this. None of the books I have speak much about EAs and there isn't a lot mentioned on MB.
I've ordered Surviving an Affair

This post struck a chord with me. As I read through it, I just couldn't tell what the real problem was, except that you seem to be insecure. It really doesn't seem like, from what you are posting, there are any problems with your marriage except the problems you are creating with your jealousy. Your husband seems very loving and supportive of you. <p>If you keep on this track, making your husband choose between you and a friendship, he would have to choose you. But the fact that you distrust him with a friendship which doesn't seem to really be detracting from your marriage, is going to make him mistrusut you. I think you should really take a good look at this objectively. <p>I was in a very similar situation with my wife, when she had a very close friendship with a man that she had known for many years before she knew me. My jealousy over that fact when she fell into a depression and was basically withdrawn from me, led me to the conclusion they were having an affair. It was entirely baseless. My lack of self-esteem and my accusations are what destroyed our marriage, not her actions.<p>People can have wholely platonic relationships with the opposite sex. So, I can't jusdge your situation... just think about it. Is it worth it to lose him over this? Could your bond be even stronger if you were so self-confident that you knew that this woman could never be a threat? If you ask for reassurance one too many times, it could be you downfall... just know that you need no reassurance...<p>I know some people will have a different opinion than me, mainly because of their own experiences with EAs. However, I have always felt that an affair, of any kind, was really defined as "any act that detracts significantly from the relationship"... that can be an emotional affair, physical, even a computer addiction or alcohol. It just doesn't seem like, from your description of what your husband is doing for you, that it is an affair... just a strong social outlet.<p>as always... IMHO<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: BeingZen ]</p>

I DEFINITELY have a different opinion.<p>1. Your spouse should be your best friend.
2. Having a 'best friend' of the opposite sex is playing with fire. Especially when they discuss problems in their marriages.
3. If he truly loved you and was committed to his vows, he would see that this is a real problem.
4. I don't think you are jealous, I think you are very sensible.
5. All affairs start with 'just talking' <p>You have every right to ? this, especially the things he has hidden from you. My H's affair was with my former best friend. HOw did it start? Because she was a 'good listener.' Well, eventually she listened so well she ended up in my bed.<p>I've learned so much about EA and PAs thru reading and counseling. EAs can be just as damaging to a marriage because of the close emotional intensity/bond that develops. In Torn Asunder, it says that this attachment most often turns to sex because of the release it provides.<p>I'm glad that your H treats you well and values you. Perhaps you can get him to go to counseling? It sure would help to hear it from an impartial outsider. He is not being true to you or respectful. I'm sure it's not that he's trying to hurt you. But he's going to have to choose as this will continue to damage your relationship.<p>You could print out the EN questionaire and try to determine which need she is fulfilling for him that you should have first crack at. Some people truly think that they can have both worlds, but one eventually crumbles.<p>I pray that you will find the peace and healing you need.

Reply to BeingZen. I really appreciate the male point of view. My logical brain struggles with all the points you have made. But something you probably cannot understand is female intuition. I began to feel a change in H where this jezebel is concerned and began to ask questions. I kept telling H I could feel it in my bones that things were not as he was portraying. He finally admitted to feelings of more than friendship, but did not explain what that meant. The difference between the way men and women view things can surely be adding to our problem. I felt more than friendship might be a crush or love. Maybe to him it means deep frendship. You also have not taken Jezebel into consideration. I feel from the things H told me about her that she is a toxic person. In Jan. she did go along down to gamble with me and H and two other ladies. She apparently did this against her better judgement. H will say I treated her very nicely and I did. She told H that she will not go down with him again if I am along. H says I did nothing to her. I think she's a jezebel who is used to having men other than her H fawning over her and was uncomfortable with seeing my H and I together laughing and having a good time. It is Jezebel that I don't trust. H has said that before I realized they were so close, I was happy. He is right, he did nothing to make me feel I was not important to him. I often worry that they may have become closer when our sex life was not good. This was due to premature menopause that Iwent through as a result of chemotherapy. I do worry that I l pushed him in her direction. I began taking an interest in several of his activities since this all started about 6 mo ago. I help him manage his ball team. I go gambling with him. I've developed an interest in Nascar. I got a book on massage and give massages often and he's getting more sex. We even just bought canoe to go on the water together. All this is in addition to all that was already good between us. He says I take care of him and comfort him. Why then does he need Jezebel in his life? I don't have a problem with other girls he works with, but I'm telling you all my female alarms are going off where Jezebel is concerned. We did go to 4 sessions of counceling but when I called Jezebel, he said he wasn't going to go any more. I feel like I'm being punished now. He's not mad at me for calling her, but he has forbidden me to ever call her again. H tells me how her H ignores her, I think her H is in a depression because of Jezebel's treatment of him. If she would put 1/3 the energy into her marriage that she puts into her relationships with other men, she'd have a great marriage. Rambling again and I feel like I'm trying to convince you. Sorry! I will think very hard about your input.
Reply to Maggierose. Thank you for your input and support. You definately have the female point of view that I have. H will not go back to counceling. Councelor wanted him to go to her alone and he would have if I had not called Jezebel. I went back to C alone and she said she felt H was looking for an excuse to quit. He did not want to go, just went to please me. H felt we were trying to tell him he was wrong in this relationship. This is not entirely true. At first C felt problem was mine as BeingZen suggested. But eventually saw things differently. One of the things that I revealed in counceling was that H used her name & age as his computer password. He didn't know I knew that. He laughed it off and said it was easy to remember. So is my name & age. I feel this was another indication of his preoccupation and addiction to her. Any new insight?<p>H 50 Me 47
M 26 yrs.
D26 D22 S 18

BeingZen, <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But the fact that you distrust him with a friendship which doesn't seem to really be detracting from your marriage,... <hr></blockquote><p>I strongly disagree. Can't you sense her pain?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Your husband seems very loving and supportive of you. <hr></blockquote><p>The fact that H continues to do something that clearly causes bmarrowt great distress is a huge red flag. This is not loving and supportive behavior. This behavior - the travelling to gamble - is a totally unnecessary activity, unlike going to work. H could live his entire life never going anywhere with this woman for recreation. He is a married man. In no way is it appropriate for a married person to travel and spend recreational time together with someone of the opposite sex, especially when the spouse has made it very clear that such behavior is unacceptable to her.<p>bmarrowt, Surviving an Affair will help you a lot.
There is something called the Policy of Joint Agreement. According to POJA, the spouses agree not to do something if it is not enthusiastically agreed upon by BOTH spouses. In you case, your H is ignoring a clear request that he stop optional behavior that is stressful to you. To continue is grossly disrespectful to you. If nothing else, H's behavior is telling you that his selfish interests are more important to him than your distress. <p>You are 100% correct to come here and learn about MB principles. You will learn to draw boundaries for what is tolerable without love busting. (Do you know about love busters yet? Search the main site under Basic Concepts if you don't.)<p>You are right. This IS something to be concerned about. Your H's insistance on continuing this "friendship" is inappropriate. You have come to the right place. Weekends are slow, so don't be discouraged if responses are few. Just keep posting. Eventually traffic will pick up.<p>Take care,
Estes

Yikes! This is all too familiar.<p>I have been "lurking" here for a while, but I had to respond to your post. Please listen to your heart. I wish I had.<p>My husband had a "friend" I felt uncomfortable about. He swore up and down there was nothing going on. We filed for divorce all the while insisting there was no one else and she was just a friend he could talk to. <p>We decided to give it one last try. We reconciled, were blessed with two beautiful children and were happy. I felt like such a fool for doubting this man.<p>Five years after we were back together, my world and everything I believed existed crumbled. His "friend" turned out to be someone with whom he had a long affair (several years). She was gracious enough to save all of the cards and notes he had written to her promising a life together. They not only were emotionally involved, but physically too.<p>She too has had several affairs with fellow employees (which is ONE of the reasons I disliked her to begin with) and flirted a lot. <p>Their affair took place during their work hours. We were home every evening and night together. He didn't have suspicious disappearances or money missing...none of the usual "telltale" signs. I just noticed that he stopped being so appalled by her and then all of the sudden was defending her.<p>Please be careful and keep your eyes open. <p>I wish you the best!<p>Wannabewhole

BTW, how old is Jezebel?<p>E

Wannabewhole,<p>Welcome to MB.<p>Estes

Being Zen,<p>I;m sorry you're getting kind of beat up...but I, too, think you are mistaken on this one. Marrow's h is engaging in actions that are wholly inappropriate for a married person. He should be discussing his marriage with his wife, not an outsider.<p>This is what led my h to leave me 18 mos ago to pursue a relationship with another woman. They'd take smoke breaks together, apparently he discussed how unhappy he was and she was there with 'tea and sympathy'. What she actually needed was a green card but *that's* another story. He began to feel that she 'cared' about him because she didn't criticize or expect anything from him like I did. Well, she didn't know everything about him, either. <p>Anyway, I disagree about platonic opposite sex friends---that's a disaster looking for a place to happen. And if marrow's h's 'friend' refuses to let marrow join their activities, doesn't that say volumes about the appropriateness of the relationship?<p>Sorry, Zen, but your own experience notwithstanding, I feel that you are completely wrong in this case.

Take it from a husband who was just caught 3 months ago by my female "Friends" husband. This relationship you described is no good! Make him end it before there is trouble (if it hasn't already happened). I wish my wife knew before I let my affair go too far!! I pray for strength and for my wife to be able to see my sincerity to make our marriage work! I pray for her pain to go away!<p>Good luck!

Heh... I don't mind being beat up.. I suppose that's what this is all about, hearing different viewpoints so that you can think about them.<p>Hrmm.. maybe my wife *did* have an affair afterall.

To all who have responded. Thank you for the insight. I'm glad you don't feel "beaten up" BeingZen because your male point of view is important. I'm sure this is exactly the way my H feels. I was surprised to hear a different male point of view from Howbre. I can only pray my husband wakes up before he gets as far as you did. I don't know how I would react to a physical betrayal.<p>Wannabewhole - your story breaks my heart for both of us. It is too familiar. Thank you for sharing & for your kind & comforting words.
I don't know if I will share with my H that I am posting yet. My instincts tell me he will not like it although we are completly annonomous here. H doesn't think he needs councelors or support. I don't think he is especially comfortable with me seeking support because he probably knows he is wrong in what he is doing.<p>Estes49 Jezebel is 41 years old.<p>Please everyone continue to advise, even if you feel I am wrong in my feelings. I desperately want to sort this out.

bmarrowt - my H is also involved in an EA at work. He also denies that it is anything more than a friendship. Quick background: Had an EA with this person 7 years ago, wanted to take it Physical, she was not willing to "break up a family". Yes, he told me all of this. I was suspicious, but trusting at that time, until he decided he needed to leave to clear his head. He left us for 1 week and begged to come back. I thought we had resolved it all. Fast forward to Jan, 2002 - this person gets a job at his workplace again. We discuss the issue at length. He understands that he cannot be "best friends" with her again, we both lose much sleep worrying over the possibilities, even joke about it. I inform him that I will not put up with an EA again. Contrary to everything he told me, within 3 weeks they had picked up where they left off 7 years ago, and I was in he11. She is now gone, but he insists that he will remain her friend, will call her, will do whatever he wants because she is just a friend. I am trying to Plan A - I don't do a great job, but things are definitely better.<p>You need to trust your feelings. If you feel that this relationship is "more" then you need to take action. Plan A if you feel that is right for you. There is no reason for him to be so involved in her life and her marriage. She needs to talk to her H about their marriage problems, not yours. He needs to talk to you about your marriage, not her.<p>Please keep your eyes open, and I hope for your sake that they are just friends. My H has several female friends, and this one just struck the wrong cord with me. I feel I should have paid closer attention.<p>Your items 1-9 & 11-16 are BIG RED FLAGS to their relationship. Doesn't sound good. Talk to him as much as you can about things, without LBing. Good luck to you and keep us posted.

BMT - I know what your name means and I congratulate you for making it thru.<p>I'm a guy who agrees with Maggie.<p>Hang around and good luck. You've gotten good advice.

Be very concerned. My WH when confronted a year ago about OW said they were just friends and that she wasn't his type. I was all the woman he needed. In February my fears became reality. I think my jealousy about this relationship did almost drive him to the A. The choice of course was hhis to make. He knew I was jealous of their friendship so if I made him mad, he headed right towards her. To get even as he puts it. She was ready willing and able. In my case, she was unhappy in her marriage and is now divorced. She came after my husband. He admits to the fact that she would follow him and just show up where ever he was. My first clue was my children noticing she would just show up. Then the friendship turned sexual. Thus the secrecy begins.<p>Again, be very concerned. He may be in mid life crisis. I believe my husband is definitly and they cannot believe themselves that they could betray us. And don't be fooled. Sex is Sex. It is the intimacy they share on the phone and at lunches that is the problem. He is making time to be with her instead of you. I wish I had been more forceful in my attempt to end their relationship.<p>It has now down graded in his eyes from Affair to Relationship to Friendship again but by plan A I hope to help him see what he has with me is better than any friendship he could maintain with her.<p>Only time will tell. Hang in there. I have found great comfort in all the support.

Haven't posted for a while. Things are going very well for H and me. We have just returned from a vacation that we enjoyed. Since our big blowup many weeks ago, things have been very good. <p> We did not discuss Jezebel until last weekend. H was talking to me about another male & female at work that are in the same situation as H & Jezebel. They are "just friends" but take break together constantly. The female told my H that she has not slept with this man. The man's mother-in-law works there too and is very upset seeing her son-in-law always taking break with this woman. I told H that this is the way I felt about his relationship with Jezebel. I have the feeling that my H by observing this other relationship has opened his eyes to how his relationship with Jezebel looks to others.<p> I asked him if he told Jezebel that he would give her up as he told me during our blowup. He asked if I meant that they could no longer go away together. I said if that was his interpretation of giving her up, then yes. H said yes she knew they could no longer go away together. I'm going to be satisfied with that for now. <p> I am doing a very good plan A. H in turn is trying to be open with me and I am trying hard to be calm and not judgemental. However, I will no longer be foolish and blind to things around me. If I find out that this friendship continues away from work or that he gives her any more gifts I will probably go to plan B.<p> Thank you everyone for your support.<p> I do have a question. When I am reading postings and someone posts "bump" what does that mean?