Quick recap…<p>- WW’s A has been suffering since I confronted OM on 3/13
- WW’s A is not truly over b/c she’s not willing to adopt a plan, etc.
- WW had been spending less time away from me, becoming slightly more affectionate, etc.
- Discovered PA was on-going as recently as 3 weeks ago
- Decided that I’m ready for Plan B… told WW that I was moving out (renting a house)
- WW’s fog appeared to lift quite a bit – had great RC 5/26 – had SF for first time in months 5/27 – apparently her trying to convince me to stay – still no commitment on her part to end A<p>That takes us up to my last posting… I had to go to Dallas last week, 5/28-5/31. Based on where we were at, I assumed it might be safe to go with “no contact” – it was mentioned in my letter after all. She sent me a couple of e-mails and a v-mail – I didn’t respond. Well, upon my return, she was pretty angry… said she thought it was still okay to call, etc. Here’s a lesson for all: set out the rules in transition time very clearly! Anyhow, I was able to explain that it was just too hard, given where we’re at… my moving, etc.<p>Then a telling comment from her… her anger disappeared, and she openly admitted that she was a mess – near a nervous breakdown, and that she just couldn’t bear being cut out of my life… and this stemming from our few days of no contact. She admitted that I’m the only one she can talk to, that I’ve been the force that’s held her together! So it may be telling for when Plan B truly begins.<p>On 6/1, I had every intention of doing a lot of packing and moving. As it turns out, we ended up having SF again… then again… then again. I know, I know: it might seem she’s trying to manipulate me. But as I said before… if she’s going to let me meet any EN, I’ll do it while I’m around. And we both certainly reconnected on the SF EN! Another couple of days in Plan A won’t hurt that much and I certainly showed a portion of what’s possible in the future! The mood was pretty good for the rest of 6/1, needless to say. We were behaving like a couple of teenagers, actually. I don’t know if it’s the sense of wanting something you can’t have, but she was certainly the SF aggressor at least 2 times – okay, I was 2 times also [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So I decided that 6/2 would be the day… and of course irony would have it that I come down with a nasty case of the flu. I could barely move. Well, WW is nice enough to pack some of my stuff, and take care of me at the same time. In fact, by the end of the day, she’s pretty worried about me, given my fever.<p>Throughout the day, she occasionally probed me on no contact, etc. Asked me where I was going to be shopping, saying “oh, maybe we’ll bump into each other”, etc. When I said I was thinking about getting my own washer/dryer, she got somewhat upset, I think realizing that was one less reason for her to see me. And so on. She talked at times like she was so cool with the idea of being on her own and “free” – but these other little comments I think show that she’d love to be “free” – with me on the side. That’s not going to happen. I dealt with all her comments in as loving but firm way that I could… I was showing that I’m going to be living my own life in Plan B… she needs to do certain things to get me back.<p>So I’m sorry to those who were expecting me to be in true Plan B by now… but I’m working on it, honest! I’m also learning a few things about her state of mind, and hopefully ending on a very, very positive note here… no LB’ing, and actually meeting most if not all EN’s.<p>In fact, some may question my reasoning for going to Plan B right now… there’s evidence that A is cooling off, WW might be slowing coming around, etc. Well, it’s based on the ol’ LB$. One can’t leave it too long… or it’ll be too late. I still need some motivation to wait in a position where we have no contact – and that won’t be easy. That plus all signs point towards WW needing a push off the fence, and that she’s not going to find a receptive OM anymore… evidence indicates he’s backing off. WW may be becoming clingy.<p>Anyhow, as I start getting over this bug, I should be able to get into my place. Things are certainly looking… interesting?

Very Interesting JR.<p>I don't know what to tell you, but over the last few months I've been developing a theory about Plan B that goes something like this:<p>If we go through all the Plan A process and we are lucky enough to run into the end of the A, or our WS "wakes up" and decides to end it and work on the M, perhaps we succeeded, but perhaps we did not achieve enough of a lifelong learning experience for our WS.<p>I've begun to feel that even if I never have to go to Plan B, my WW will not REALLY "get it", and that perhaps the educational value of Plan B may be a very positive thing for the future.<p>I know, most people tell me I want to punish her, but it's really not like that at all. I have come to believe that actually being in a situation that "feels" like divorce, and the other effects Plan B will undoubtedly have on the WS really can be a very positive educational experience for the future.<p>I can see my W suddenly having to actually face the consequence of her A, perhaps choosing to REALLY learn about MB principles, perhaps making a truer/closer self evaluation, and I think it would be good for her.<p>If she never experinces that feeling, perhaps she'll never really understand how I felt when I found out, or some of the other painful turmoil I've gone thru during all of this Plan A learning process.<p>Just my thoughts.<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

The MB guidelines advise that you start plan B not on a low note, but at a high point of plan A to leave the best possible impression. So this is perfect!

JR!!! LOL!! I can't quit chuckling...and again and again, LOL! I think you're doing GREAT and I think she's going to feel the impact you TRULY have in her life very soon. ANY inkling she thinks she has about any kind of FREE feeling she'll have...is desperation at a hopeful feeling at best. Once you're actually out...she's going to feel more "messed up" than ever. That's ok...let her. Once she realizes manipulation won't work anymore...she'll have to turn her efforts inward...hopefully.<p>Spacecase...I agree with you completely. I hate to...I'd love to think it's possible to "get it" totally without needing to feel the heat. But in most cases like yours or JR's...I don't think it works that way. Tutter is an example of a WS who's affair was discovered and she IMMEDIATLY was repentant and initiated NC without hesitation. She made a stupid mistake and it almost cost their marriage...she saw that and put forth effort to fix it. This isn't the case with you, nor is it with JR....nor was it with us. I know that if I hadn't gotten out on my own for a while I would not have made the personal growth I did and would not have learned to appreciate my H like I do.<p>Anyway JR...glad to hear your feeling better. My biggest advice to you right now would be to drink plenty of fluids. And not because of that flu you had........LOL!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by J.R.:
<strong>So I’m sorry to those who were expecting me to be in true Plan B by now… but I’m working on it, honest.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
JR--I sure don't think there is any need to apologize for this. I have said in previous posts here, I really think what Plan B is and how we reach that can be way different for all of us. <p>I know there are others here who disagree and believe there is only one pure plan B, and one way to get there and something else is not plan B... <p>OK, be that as it may, and call it what you will, but I don't think there is a cookie cutter solution for all of us.<p>The way I look at it, Plan B is to get the WS to THINK & FEEL. <p>Think about the real loss of their spouse...<p>Feel what that would be like... <p>In a real sense, I think that your W is in the thinking and feeling stage...and to a certain extent she is scared by it. From that standpoint I think you are doing fine. <p>Anyway just my $0.02...it's worth what you paid for it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I still think you are doing good work here...keep it up.<p>Good luck <p>E

SC,
You are my inspiration. From all that you wrote, your W sounds like my H. When I get him to talk, he talks of ending the A in his own time and staying with me. He even told my youngest daughter that he was taking the family to Disney next year? On the other hand he is waiting for something. Me to crack or the OW I suppose. I am not sure. He says we are both pushing him and he can't decide. I don't even talk about it unless he breeches the subject. His pressure is self inflicted. The lies he has told over the length of the A keep surfacing and each time another one does, he withdraws into his cave like he is too ashamed to face me or the children.<p>He is very attentive of recent but still no affection. This is the hardest part. He has alway been affectionate until he told me about the A. How do you deal with the feelings of rejection and unattractiveness? I have a great job and consider myself attractive prior to this whole ordeal. I don't know when I lost this confidence in myself.<p>I am only 4 months into plan A. I hope I can make it to 6 months. That is my goal. He is on the fence and although I think the A has cooled somewhat, there is still a hugh emotional attachment. People in the community have started to find out because she is divorcing her H in hope that my H will marry her. He says no way. He won't leave his own kids to raise hers. That all remains to be seen.<p>Anyway, I appreciate all your comments and views.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tmmx:
<strong>The MB guidelines advise that you start plan B not on a low note, but at a high point of plan A to leave the best possible impression. So this is perfect!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This absolutely correct, JR; the place your WS is at is probably exactly the place where Plan B will be best implemented; unless there is a MAJOR change of heart just on the threat of Plan B; in which case you may not need to. But only you can judge that.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RNROSCOE:
<strong>SC,
You are my inspiration. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>RNR; I'm pleased you feel this way, but believe me; I've made so many mistakes and I've been so hard-headed about so many things, I'm not sure this is deserved.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
From all that you wrote, your W sounds like my H. When I get him to talk, he talks of ending the A in his own time and staying with me. He even told my youngest daughter that he was taking the family to Disney next year? On the other hand he is waiting for something. Me to crack or the OW I suppose. I am not sure. He says we are both pushing him and he can't decide. I don't even talk about it unless he breeches the subject. His pressure is self inflicted. The lies he has told over the length of the A keep surfacing and each time another one does, he withdraws into his cave like he is too ashamed to face me or the children.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Several things here; at some point (a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away) she had said that "this time" she was going to "finish" this HER way, not MY way. Referring to the "forced" ending of her first A 14 years ago. But this, of course, is just fog-babble. There is no "right" way to end an A by the WS that does not involve the WS and the needs of the M and recovery. And it's just an excuse to not end it, not have to face the choice.<p>Isn't it werid that it seems they are "waiting for something"? Just unsettling to me! Wish I knew what it was. <p>But at least he's talking about it, even if at some point he withdraws. It's been months since my W took the position that "it's over. nothing to talk about." So I guess you should count yourself lucky in that.<p>And their withdrawl upon discovery of lies is normal. They don't want to face their truth, thier own responsibilities and faults, so they react in ways that shield them for having to face this. Normal.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
He is very attentive of recent but still no affection. This is the hardest part. He has alway been affectionate until he told me about the A. How do you deal with the feelings of rejection and unattractiveness? I have a great job and consider myself attractive prior to this whole ordeal. I don't know when I lost this confidence in myself.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I haven't really gotten this rejection as bad as that. From the start she has been fairly "normal" in her affection towards me, which is less than I'd like, but still about the same as before the A was discovered. She has tried to get closer lately, more SF, etc. but still it feels guarded and if I don't initiate, she doesn't either.<p>It's very hard to deal with the rejection and feeling of unatractiveness; only you can make yourself better this way; he will not do it for you, nor can you ever really rely on him to do it. You must gain your own self-confidence, and sense of self worth. In fact, it's about the very BEST thing you could do to bring him around; show him you are worth more than he's admitting, that you are better and stronger. That'll get his attention.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I am only 4 months into plan A. I hope I can make it to 6 months. That is my goal. He is on the fence and although I think the A has cooled somewhat, there is still a hugh emotional attachment. People in the community have started to find out because she is divorcing her H in hope that my H will marry her. He says no way. He won't leave his own kids to raise hers. That all remains to be seen.<p>Anyway, I appreciate all your comments and views. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>You don't necessarily have to set a time limit or goal; the goal should be where you are as an individual. When you are feeling better about yourself, have gained th confidence that you WILL make it on your own, that, in fact, you may be better off without him; that's when Plan A is at its best. That's when any effects of Plan A will begin to bear fruit. And that is also when, as in JR's case, going to Plan B might have the greatest chance of success.

ditto h4f and Spaceman.<p>IMHO, show your principles. Don't back down. Only if she takes the necessary steps before Plan B should you not continue your plan.<p>Good job, J.R.

Aren't people the STRANGEST creatures? A week ago (Saturday)my dil dumped my son on my doorstep, yelling "I want him the f*** out of my life...he's such a f***ing liar...I never want to see him again." Sunday she was calling him and asking him to 'come over for a few minutes' because she had come by Sunday morning and saw sons's friend sleeping on my couch. OH, YOU MEAN HE'S GOING TO HAVE A LIFE WITHOUT HER???? <p>Son decided that since things were going so bad here, he was going to move to Austin to live with his brother...when she heard that, she stayed on my doorstep for three days begging son to come back. He talked to me...I asked him what had changed in four days? Nothing.<p>He went back and, here we are 4-5 days later and she is back to her old tricks. (long, long story-I;ll spare you)...suffice it to say that as soon as he stopped crying and begging her to take him back, she couldn't stay away. How weird.

J.R.<p>Don't feel bad about anything you're doing right now. Like I said before, she's still your W and you have every "right" to have great SF with her, and since she wanted it half those times, then kudos to both of you. You're also right on in going to plan B NOW, when things are at their best between the two of you. WS's in your W's situation just may need to truly crash and burn before they realize what they're sacrificing with their behavior.<p>My situation (and SC's and several others) is a lot more complicated. In my case, we've got kids. My D is about to move out on her own, and is doing okay right now (graduated from college last thursday and is moving to London for 6 months in August). She knows about the A, and is coping remarkably well (better than me or my W, actually). My son doesn't know, and is a freshman in HS. He's a very kind, considerate guy and would be devastated if he found out or if we DV'd. THEN, as if that wasn't enough, we've got this National Register house that we've been rebuilding since the fire last October (I think that was what initially woke my W up to the fantasy of her A). It will take at least another year to rebuild, so I can't just walk out and stay out of contact while we're dealing with claims adjusters and contractors almost daily. But my W has yet to cut off contact with OM, who is way damned late getting his report done. She'd like to give him until October. I'd like not to. She'd like to work with him on further data analysis for another year or so. I won't stand for that, period. She and he screwed up any chance of ever working together professionally. Sorry. I'd rather DV, in spite of the other complications, rather than deal with contact for ANY length of time (because I still am having a tough time dealing with the 11-year lie, anyway). But I don't think it'll come to that. Going to be a bumpy ride for a while longer, but we're going to come out of this okay, I think.