Have been gone for awhile...here's quick summary of my situation. H had EA/PA with good friend of mine (his step-cousin) which lasted 3 years. He told me about it on 04-19. They both said it was over.<p>No one else knows about it, just the 3 of us. We (all 3 of us) had a big "talk" the weekend after d-day. My H had already said that it was a "done deal." She talked alone with me and said that it would never happen again. She also said she'd break contact w/him, but I know that hasn't happened. They don't talk daily like they were, but they do talk. BTW, she lives 4 hrs. away, so I know they haven't seen each other.<p>I've been plan A-ing since d-day. Some days are great, some bad. I expect that. Here's the problem. When he told me about A, he said that he was telling me so he could end it. That he wanted to stay married. Now, though, everytime we discuss the A, he says that he wishes he knew I could be happy without him so he could leave. That he doesn't see a way for our M to work. It's like he wants me to kick him out. I tell him that if he wants to leave, he'll have to do it on his own. He says he loves her and me both. And...here's the best...that she won't ever have anything to do with him while we're married (as if that mattered before), and that I "took care" of that. Like he's blaming me that it's over with her, after he told me about the A supposedly so he could end it. Like she's being the noble one now for staying away from him. Like she's doing ME a favor. (Which she's not, or she'd quit talking to him.)<p>Should I tell him that it's okay if he goes, that I'll be okay? I don't know if I've plan A-ed long enough, but he seems to think that I'm "forcing" him to stay. But we still have some very good days and days where he says he loves me and will stay with me forever.<p>I am utterly confused and hopeless at this point. I think it's a matter of time before he goes to be with her.

Dani; like most WSs, your H is confused and in heavy fog. He feels one thing today, another tomorrow, and that is not likely to end soon.<p>If you really want to save your M, you will have to Plan A big time, and come to a no contact agreement. As long as there is contact, even on the phone, he will waver back and forth.<p>If he will not agree to NC, then you'll have to continue your Plan A, make yourself the very best he has ever seen, and show him, through your actions, that if he does not start working with you on the M, he will lose you.<p>What he's feeling, and you are feeling are normal. Everyone goes through this, and It's very hard, I know, but it is not just you.<p>Keep posting, get counseling, and Plan A. Have faith...have hope...you can do this!

Thanks Spacecase.<p>There are some reasons why I think that he will never agree to no contact. 1)When we are around his family, we will see her (she's a step-cousin). He will talk to her and try to act "normal." 2) He told me that he can "talk to her about anything" (as opposed to me, I guess).<p>I think that when he's with me, he sometimes enjoys it but alot of the time just misses her. I'm just wondering if I went ahead and let him go to her if the reality that what they have will not work would set in and if he would start missing me and realizing that our marriage can work. I don't know if that makes sense...

dani,<p>It sounds like your Plan A is pretty good. It's always better (IMO) if they are sitting on the fence than running 100 mph in the other direction. Remember, Plan B should be a LAST resort. Let's make sure you give PLan A enough time, and that it's tweaked to be most effective.<p>How often do you discuss the A, or your R in general?<p>Why do you think he feels "forced" to stay with you?<p>Just a couple of questions so I can better understand. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith,<p>We probably discuss our R once every one or two weeks. As far as him feeling "forced" to stay, that is what I'm hearing from him. <p>He says that if I would just say that I could be happy without him, he could leave. I tell him that I won't say that, because him leaving is not what I want. I tell him that he'll have to leave on his own if he wants to. I think he interprets that as me "forcing" him to stay.<p>Also, he says that because of her talk with me, the OW will not have a R with him without it being completely over with me. (Of course, this is illogical...she had an A with him while pretending to be my friend and knowing we were married). So he said at one point that since she won't participate in the A anymore, it's either me or nothing. I guess he feels like that he can never pursue her while I'm still hanging on...and that makes him angry at me, I guess. By the way, the OW, who is to him so noble because she won't continue the A if we're still married since she "cares so much about me", is still calling him on the phone. But he can't see that this makes her weak and immoral...to him, it just means that she loves him. He thinks this is harder for her than me (he said that).<p>Sorry for rambling...I guess that's it...

Another couple of things about the "noble" OW. She is acting like/saying she wants me and H to stay married. She told him that she'd give everything between the two of them up if things could just be like they were before between all of us (we were all very close both before AND during the A...AS IF that could stay the same). So I feel like he thinks she's putting other people's needs first, and now he's idealizing her and how "wonderful" she is to do such a thing...which is bulls***! If she were so wonderful, she'd butt the hell out of our lives and quit calling him altogether, not just "cut down."<p>Will he ever quit putting her on a pedestal without living with her and seeing that it's not all perfect? I asked him the other nite if he didn't realize that he lives with me/sees me every day, so he knows all my little imperfections, but not hers. I asked if he realized that if he moved in with her, all her annoying imperfections would come out, just like mine have.<p>I guess this is really just a vent post, but if anyone sees something that I can do that is logical and right, please steer me in that direction before I do something stupid...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dani1990:
<strong>Thanks Spacecase.<p>There are some reasons why I think that he will never agree to no contact. 1)When we are around his family, we will see her (she's a step-cousin). He will talk to her and try to act "normal." 2) He told me that he can "talk to her about anything" (as opposed to me, I guess).<p>I think that when he's with me, he sometimes enjoys it but alot of the time just misses her. I'm just wondering if I went ahead and let him go to her if the reality that what they have will not work would set in and if he would start missing me and realizing that our marriage can work. I don't know if that makes sense...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I would interpret his making the OW "noble", and his making you "responsible" for his having to stay, making him miserable, as a projection of his guilt. Deep inside he knows it's wrong, from him and from her, bur he cannot come to grips with facing that just yet. Ignore it as much as you can...it's fog-talk. Also, it will not make any difference if you try to make him see that. He won't, and it'll be seen as your manipulation. Maybe later on you can do it, or he'll eventually realize it on his own.<p>As to the leaving or staying; I believe you should try to set some boundaries around that. Obviously you'd like him to stay, so you can Plan A and hopefully save your M. But you don't want to "force" him to do that, which will be seen as a major LB. But you also should not allow him to skirt responsibility by saying that he's staying because he "knows you'll be unhappy without him". <p>Maybe you could propose a "test" period that he'll agree to. Something like "OK, you're not sure if you want to be with me or with her. I can accept that. But we ARE married, so don't you think you owe it to our marriage to give it a sincere try? Let's do this: you'll agree to no contact for 90 days, and you'll tell her that, and you'll work with me to figure out what we're missing or doing wrong. We'll work on it for that period, and at the end, you'll be better prepared to make a decision."<p>Or you could try to put up with the current situation a bit longer, plan A you B--- off, and give him a real taste of your value. Find out the EN's you have not met for him and try to make changes, start detaching from him, do 180s, but keep him around long enough so that he can see the changes, and start to appreciate them. Maybe then you can come out and say "I don't want you to stay because you feel I won't be happy without you. Stay if you want to commit to working on our M, if not, I don't want you here." But this should not be done before you've had a chance to Plan A for at least a few months, otherwise, Plan B has a very small chance of success.<p>It might work, it might not. Some here will say it's crazy to try that. But I think you're in a difficult bind and allowing things to continue as they are is probably not healthy for you or your M.

Thanks Spacecase--everything you say makes sense; it's just hard to do logical things when in this situation. I'm trying not to fly off the handle, though.<p>H and I talked again last nite about M. It was a pretty good talk. Since OW is younger, thinner, prettier than me, I just kind of though that SF was what he was missing from me. Our sex life has definitely slowed down since our D was born, although it's never been boring. OW is a very high-strung, adventurous type person, so I also thought that H might think she was just more "fun" than me. He's also very high-strung/adventurous.<p>What I heard from him, though, is that SF has always been good with me. He said that it was much better with me than with her. Apparently, the main thing he got from her was communication, someone to "talk to." He feels like I don't understand him and she does. I told him that I've missed communication between us, and that the reason I fell in love with him to begin with was not SF, but the fact that he cared about what I had to say. We both agreed that we need to try to get that back. <p>He asked me why I "put up with him" and I told him that I really didn't think he was a bad person that I had to "put up with." If I did, I wouldn't still be here.<p>I didn't approach the no contact conversation; thought that might taint the whole conversation and make him think it was a LB.<p>So that's where I am today.

bump

dani,
I think you need to just keep doing what you're doing hun. I think you're doing fine. I think he needs more time appreciating you, and the efforts you're making at learning to meet his needs and avoid LB's. More TIME AND PATIENCE in Plan A. WHenever we BS's become impatient that we're not getting immediate results, we begin thinking it's time for Plan B. Personally, I think you can afford Plan A a little longer.<p>Could something he see in OW be "Acceptance"? My H says that I always "wanted more" from him, that I couldn't appreciate and accept him the way he was. OW apparently worshipped the ground he walked on. Until, like you say, he had a couple of months in Plan B, and the divorce became final. Then they finally seemed to see each other in true light. Flaws and everything. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, if you think "acceptance" may be a key part of admiration that he gets from her, work on that. And, as you discovered, communication. <p>I think you handled the conversation just fine, especially by not pushing the envelope on no contact. <p>What did you think of Spacey's suggestion of proposing the "test period"? I tried that, and it didn't work. My H wasn't willing to "no contact" OW for even a short period of time. He felt hopeless about our chances at that time. YOUR H doesn't seem hopeless about you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You're still in the "game", in other words.<p>What do you think?

I don't think you can count on any agreements from a WS still involved in an A, and that is what your H is still doing, dani--conducting an A. And as long as that is the case, the M cannot recover. Your best plan is to continue Plan A to the best of your ability. I would avoid talk about the OW, the A, and the M and just BE married. Live the M you want. Act as if you are in that M.<p>If HE brings any of that stuff up, nonchalantly point out the obvious: "Well, right now we're married, so that's how I'm conducting my life.", "When you and OW end contact with each other, then I'll be happy to discuss our future together.", "It is my understanding that you married me of your own free will and that you are currently remaining married to me of your own free will. I am content to allow you to make your own choices about your life." And then just go back to what you were doing.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dani1990:
<strong><p>Should I tell him that it's okay if he goes, that I'll be okay? .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You don't need to give him the permission that he wants. I think if he was really concerned about your well being, he wouldn't have had the affair. He now wants you to basically give him your blessing so he can leave with a clear conscience. A clarity that he has not earned. <p>If I were you, I would throw this back into his court and continue telling him that you don't want him to leave, that you want to work things out, but that if he CHOOSES to leave, you will respect his decision. That will put the issue right back in his lap and if he REALLY wants to leave, he can't use you as an excuse.

Faith1--Thanks. I've been thinking about this a lot this week, and I agree with you that I can handle Plan A for a while longer. I also think that you hit the nail on the head with the "acceptance" thing...so I'll try on that. I'm going to wait a bit before I mention no contact again, but I think that the "test period" will be the way I approach it.<p>Conqueror and Melody Lane--Thank you for reaffirming my decision to NOT take responsibility for his choices. I was ready to throw in the towel because it would make it easier for him to leave. Since that's not what I want, that doesn't make much sense. I don't think I'm forcing him to stay...he could be gone already if that's what he wanted...but I will make it clear that it's HIS decision whether to go or stay.<p>You all have helped me tremendously this morning...thanks bunches :-)