Don't get stuck! It seems that are you more focused on responding to things posted to other OW than you are with working out your own marital problems? Don't get side tracked. <p>Question yourself more, and others less! .... What is your plan of action? You have real problems you don't spend much time discussing. Why is that?<p>What progress are you making towards a goal of having a wonderful, honest, marriage? A marriage where you don't have to lie or hide your true self?<p>Keep you eye on YOUR prize CM. Is your prize a better marriage? ... or ...Is your prize scolding and argueing with BS's here on MB?<p>As a training exercise CM ... try responding to every BS you post to (here on MB) in the same tone and sympathetic understanding voice you would want your BS to hear, if he were posting on MB.<p>Imagine that every BS you post to has the hurting heart your BS will one day feel. And post in a manner that enriches your ability to be empathetic .. and less concerned with pointing out BS's "bitterness".<p>I challenge you to do this CM. Post as if your BS were reading and feeling the responses in his heart. <p>I say this only with your best interest in mind.<p>You are wandering away from the work you need to do.<p>Don't be afraid to look inward CM. I'm sure you are capable of concentrating on YOUR issues, and not on the issues posted by various OW who come here and stir up feelings of the more recently injured BS.<p>What really matters to you? <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Interesting! P/C forum was sorta wondering the same things...<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=35&t=002774

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> try responding to every BS you post to (here on MB) in the same tone and sympathetic understanding voice you would want your BS to hear, if he were posting on MB.
<hr></blockquote><p>Wouldn't it be nice if EVERYONE (not just CM) on these forums could respond in a sympathetic and understanding voice rgardless of who they are responding to.

{{{Want it back }}}<p>I totally agree! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I think CM has really great untapped potential ... and I wish she would soar like an eagle here at MB.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Pepper,<p>You have a way of getting to heart of matters. Right now, I'm not very interested in sharing my issues here. In part, I don't feel that the responses (as a generalization) are what I need. I have found that over the past week or so, I have pulled back quite a bit from people here. I don't like the righteousness that has been slung around and my way of dealing with that is just to read others posts that I find I can relate to, and not offer anything more about me.
I am not, at least I don't feel that I am, focused on other peoples issues. I have been very focused at home and with our MC on my life and my marriage. However, some of the double standards here do catch me up. I am frustrated when, a poster (not necessarily that post by sow22, but that is a good example) says something that I personally take and say that for me, it was VERY good to hear that someone whose shoes I almost walked in, has issues that I predicted would be issues for me and was a reason I chose not to take that path, gets insulted because their view isn't in line with the majority here. I don't want to ask my questions nor share what I'm thinking or doing, because I don't want to get insulted or into an arguement. That has been what has happened lately.
I did respond to a poster last week, and I have taken the approach that you mention. I want the practice if for nothing else. And I got attacked out of no where. Not even by the poster but by someone else who came along and didn't agree with me. I wasn't rude and I wasn't hurtful. But apparantely it caused someone, who happen to be BS, to lash out at me and hurt me and others.
The bottom line is that I am working on my life and my M but I chose for now to not share my questions or my thoughts about it here. I have found some very good threads here that have helped me tremendously, particularily by male BS. Their perpectives have given me invaluable insight. Their approach or their way of thinking, is more in line with how I see my husband, than the female BS's. They seem more focused somehow on their WS and not so much on the OP. I posted once or twice last week to those wonderful BS's here in general, but after what has happened recently, I chose keep myself 3 steps back.
Pepper, you and I had begun some good dialogue over on P/Child thread and I am sorry that it could not contiune. You have once again inspired me to think and I thank you for that. <p>Of course the prize is a better marriage! That is what we are all after, right? I do get caught up, you are right, because I too am still very hurt. We are all injured and the posts that OP make are not always about hurting the BS. I personally want to hear all the voices, not only the majority of them. I maintain that for my growth.

CM ... at the risk of insulting others ... YOU are far too intelligent to keep score. Keeping score is how you got where you are now. (ie; trading insult for insult)<p>What if ??? What if you went back over everything you've posted since you arrived at MB and substituted the words "in pain" or "hurting" or "suffering" for every time you said bitter BSs .... ????<p>I see your hurt in your posts CM. I feel it. You are running from it.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Pepper,<p>I would have to say that honestly, I can probably substitue the word bitter 50% of the time that I said it. I honestly didn't realize that bitter was a term that struck nerves. I feel bitter at times and I've used it to describe how I am feeling as well. I don't understand what is wrong with it but I will try and remember that it can strick a cord with some people. The thing is, it should be okay for anyone involved in the web of an A to feel bitter. It does not mean that a person is weak or a loser or duped or anything in my opinion that is negative. It is what it is and it is understandable. Maybe that is why I don't take offense to admit it's fleeting.<p>I think you are wise Pepper to call me on it. You are right, I do feel as though I'm running from it. I have tried to face it and I feel overwhelmed by it. I can't face it anymore and so I am trying a new approach that seems to have worked for my ex-beloved, he ignores his feelings and it works for him, why not try it, right?<p>If I spend less time on feeling sorry for myself then maybe I can get my head clear enough to pay attention to my H, who've I've stupidly ignored much too long already.<p>BTW Pepper, I appreciate you being honest with me with how you see me. I need that.

CM~~~<p>One of the things I explored during my marital recovery was this:<p>Issues of "Trust" are paramount. But, not the way these issues are usually discussed here at MB. Usually "Trust" (with a capital T) is discussed after the fact of the A. ...(as in;"How can I ever trust my WS again? Boo Hoo.") I think major lack-of-Trust (capital T) issues are in existance prior to discovery ... and very likely, prior to the A itself!<p>I think many (not all) WS have serious lack-of-Trust issues before the A ... during the A, and after the A!!!!<p>This is something I see you struggling with CM.... Are you aware of this? Do you trust your H with the truth?<p>Lovingly,... as a mother....<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

CM,<p>I think Pepper has hit upon it with the word "bitter". The problem as I see it is that there is a difference between being "bitter" and telling someone their response is out of "bitterness". Often your posts have "sounded" as if you were accusing people of being "bitter" thus invalidating their responses to you. Most of the response come in two forms here. <p>1. Out of great pain with a sense of trying to help someone else.<p>2. Out of memory of great pain with a sense of trying to help someone else.<p>The approach varies: sympathetic, tough love, hard reality, etc. But, very very few posters here post because the DON'T want to help. <p>You are very sensitive because you are in a quandry of your own making and there are no easy ways to fix it. It is pretty awful actually. <p>As an aside, studies have been done on stress and how it affects humans. People under great pressure are found to not be that adversely affected by the stress IF there is a solution to the problem putting them under stress. Those how are understress but don't have the authority, resources, ect. to address the situation are found to be very adversely affected by the stress.<p>My point is that I suspect you feel you are in the second situation. In ways you are. There is no way out that doesn't lead to pain on your part and your H's part. But, you realize there is a way to do this that does work, it is via the honesty.<p>I also realize you are struggling with facing all of this. Frankly, you have my deepest sympathy for I would not want to be in your position for all the money in the world. It is my fondest hope that you can find the strength to tell your H.<p>Doesn't that sound strange?? Someone hoping that you will tell your H and hurt him deeper than anyone on this planet could. Yet, as strange as it sounds it is like to be the best thing for you, your marriage, your child, and yes even your H. A tremendous burden will be lifted from your shoulders and your H will be given a very hard decision to make, but I think that with time he will tell you that he would rather make that decision than have someone else make it for him.<p>I have sort of rambled CM, I apologize. Just remember people do read your words, they think about them, and they have power. Use them carefully OK?<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I'm stumped as to how you mean trust my H with the truth? Do you mean trust him enough to be completely honest with him, no matter what I'm feeling at any stage, pre or post A? <p>Tell me more about your hypothesis regarding lack of trust issues for WS prior to discovery and prior to A? I'm not sure I am following you?

OK CM ... let me think about my response ...to make sure I can express myself better.<p>As Arnold says; "I'll be back."<p>P [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

You are funny Pepper and I do not laugh outloud that easily these days.. It's worth the wait.

CM,<p>Can I guess what Pepper is going to say? Can I? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously, did you trust your H to love and protect you before your A?<p>For that matter did you trust that he loved you?<p>Did/do you trust that he will do his best to make the marriage work?<p>I suspect that is where Pepper is going. I look forward to her answer as well. She has a nice way of phrasing things.<p>I'll leave you two to your conversation. Must get some work done.<p>God Bless CM,<p>JL

I don't want to ask my questions nor share what "I'm thinking or doing, because I don't want to get insulted or into an arguement. That has been what has happened lately.
I did respond to a poster last week, and I have taken the approach that you mention. I want the practice if for nothing else. And I got attacked out of no where. Not even by the poster but by someone else who came along and didn't agree with me. I wasn't rude and I wasn't hurtful. But apparantely it caused someone, who happen to be BS, to lash out at me and hurt me and others."<p>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<p>I can relate...

Pepper, JL, WIB, and yes, YOU TOO CM!<p>Please check out my new thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=001648<p>And let me know what you all think. I'm approaching a crossroads here. I post this to you guys because you all know my story pretty well (and I promise to contribute to THIS thread when I can get some time). <p>I need to get some serious advice on what to do about OM and OMW right now, because it sounds like OMW may be going off the deep end, and I don't want her: Throwing OM out to persue my W; going postal on either OM or my W... other permutations?<p>I'd really like to tell them both to get Cing, and would have loved it if OMW had told ME about the first A 11 years ago when she found out. So, CM, this is where you come in. Think about this. If OMW had told me about what she knew back then, there wouldn't have BEEN a 2nd A!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB]CM,<p>I think Pepper has hit upon it with the word "bitter". The problem as I see it is that there is a difference between being "bitter" and telling someone their response is out of "bitterness". Often your posts have "sounded" as if you were accusing people of being "bitter" thus invalidating their responses to you. Most of the response come in two forms here. <p>1. Out of great pain with a sense of trying to help someone else.<p>2. Out of memory of great pain with a sense of trying to help someone else.<p>The approach varies: sympathetic, tough love, hard reality, etc. But, very very few posters here post because the DON'T want to help. <p>You are very sensitive because you are in a quandry of your own making and there are no easy ways to fix it. It is pretty awful actually. <p>As an aside, studies have been done on stress and how it affects humans. People under great pressure are found to not be that adversely affected by the stress IF there is a solution to the problem putting them under stress. Those how are understress but don't have the authority, resources, ect. to address the situation are found to be very adversely affected by the stress.<p>My point is that I suspect you feel you are in the second situation. In ways you are. There is no way out that doesn't lead to pain on your part and your H's part. But, you realize there is a way to do this that does work, it is via the honesty.<p>I also realize you are struggling with facing all of this. Frankly, you have my deepest sympathy for I would not want to be in your position for all the money in the world. It is my fondest hope that you can find the strength to tell your H.<p>Doesn't that sound strange?? Someone hoping that you will tell your H and hurt him deeper than anyone on this planet could. Yet, as strange as it sounds it is like to be the best thing for you, your marriage, your child, and yes even your H. A tremendous burden will be lifted from your shoulders and your H will be given a very hard decision to make, but I think that with time he will tell you that he would rather make that decision than have someone else make it for him.<p>I have sort of rambled CM, I apologize. Just remember people do read your words, they think about them, and they have power. Use them carefully OK?<p>God Bless,<p>
JL,<p>It is a funny life I am living. I am not completely unhappy even though I'm far from the contentment I so want and desire. It's ironic, my son brings me overwhelming joy as he does to my husband. I don't feel sorry for having him, not even a slight desire to undo it all. I couldn't have had him if I hadn't not met ex-om. If my M hadn't been in such a bad way, I wouldn't have been open to letting OM into my life. It is very ironic how life has unfolded for me but I do not feel hopeless overall, just somedays when as you point out, I feel trapped and overwhelmed. I do believe we'll make it but I've never been one who flies by seat of pants. I over analyze everything and consider all my options and try my best to line up all my ducks. I am amazed when I think about it because how I got here certainly isn't indicative of someone who normally acts rationally.
I respect your position and I will continue to try and will look to improve my technique in getting my point across in a manner that is not going to be taken the wrong way. But, it will be very difficult for me to ignore someone who directs an insulting post to my attention. I can't promise I won't react but I'll try to change my reaction in a more postitve manner, by changing my views.

Seriously, did you trust your H to love and protect you before your A?<p>NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!! I'm mad at him for hurting me.<p>For that matter did you trust that he loved you?<p>NO. HE TREATED ME LIKE CRAP WHEN HE HIT THE HEIGHT OF HIS ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL. <p>Did/do you trust that he will do his best to make the marriage work?<p>IT CAME TOO LATE. HE GOT CLEAN BUT I CHECKED OUT. PATHETIC, I KNOW.<p>I thank you for jumping in here. I am feeling angry now but that isn't your fault.

2Long,<p>I only have a second, I'm off for vacation now but I wanted to let you know I just seen this and I will respond when I get back next week. I wish I'd seen it earlier so I could offer something. You have come a long way, wishing things were different back 11 years ago is easy to do, but don't get caught up in in as Pepper might say.. Your in good hands with this group over here!

CM~~<p>Thanks to JL for contributing! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Trust. Do I trust in myself?..... (I'm going to write using first person. It's just easier to write this way.)<p>When I Trust in myself, I am free of certain misgivings and doubts. I am empowered. I am confident.<p>I trust I am loveable ... even when I am not being loved. This trust, (that I am loveable even in the absence of someone showing me love) frees me from becoming someone I am not ... I don't need to "become anything" in order to believe I am loveable. I trust that I am.<p>When I trust that I am loveable, I can accept that others around me may or may not appreciate me, or love me... but, I am loveable nonetheless.<p>When I trust myself, I trust my character... uncomfortable situations, like a bad marriage, will not make me distrust myself and change my character. My character, my values hold true ... irregardless of what situations arise.<p>I trust in my own goodness. My goodness does not depend on what others say or think ... but flows from what I have learned about myself, my own loveableness, and my strength of character. I trust that my goodness will remain with me always .. like a warm glowing light I maintain deep inside ... and this goodness will not extinguish when faced with unfortunate circumstances.<p>With this trust ... I choose to live innocently. I speak truthfully. I have no need to hide, or throw myself into any relationship to make myself feel better. Instead of trying to "feel better" ... I am better on a visceral level.... on a spiritual level.<p>I own it. Trust is me, and is mine.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"If my M haden't been in such a bad way, I wouldn't have been open to letting OM into my life."<hr></blockquote><p>See ... I think differently here. All marriages can feel like a "bad one" some times ... but, when this happends to someone who does NOT Trust themselves ---> this "bad time" spins the non-Trusting person off balance. This person panics. This person reacts to the "bad" by losing their confidence in themselves. This person perhaps becomes vulnerable to an affair... as a way to find a new identity ... a new identity that is not someone who is part of a "bad" marriage.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>