Thinking about possible separation or what the future might hold, I can't figure out what to think about the arrangements of our Daughter.<p>On the one hand, I think: She's the WS, she should leave, she couldn't provide for her (no income), so therefore D should stay with me.<p>On the other hand, I think: Daughter needs her as well, likely more than me (well, she's the mom after all). <p>And now for me the toughtest thing: I don't know how I could live with a shared custody arrangement. Thinking about OM playing a 'daddy' role, influencing education and such, or D calling him 'daddy' etc etc.... absolutely revolting. also, that would mean to stay in (some) contact with WS - again likely to be an absolute no-no for me, as it will just drive me over the edge. maybe it will be easier for D in that case just to forget me all together? or forget her all together & stay with me?<p>Again, I sort of see both extreme solutions, but the middle thing I can't possibly imagine.<p>It really breaks my heart that in any case it's our D who suffers.... all due to bloody WS & OM.

Hi Nick
No solution for you but would advise aginst D having n9 contact with either you or w. However hard it is for you D deserves both of you in her life in some form. You have to be the adult here and work something out so she won't suffer. A child who loses contact with either parent through D will suffer even more.
Jante

You have to do what is best for your kids.<p>In MY best judgement, the best thing for my kids was a stable home, and not to have to go btwn houses, and not to have to cope with a new step-mom, a woman that they KNEW had helped to break up their home and their parents.<p>You have to decide for yourself, but no way in hell was I ever going to go for anything less than full custody of my children.<p>I wanted them to see their dad and have a relationship with their dad - but it was their DAD that made a decision to do something that put his relationship with them at risk. And ultimately each individual parent can only be responsible for their own relationship with their children.<p>It was MY responsiblity to see to my kids best possible interest in a really crappy situation. His relationship with them was really his problem. This doesn't meant that I would have kept him from seeing them or contacting them, not at all. I got them their own telephone, installed ICQ for them so they could talk and IM their dad any time they wanted. <p>After ensuring their saftey and wellbeing, I got out of the way.<p>But honestly, HE chose to take actions that put his relationship with his children in danger. That's just part of the consequences.<p>My advice is to go for full physical custody.

Just found some interesting stats... I guess they speak for themselves:<p>Fatherless families<p>Percentage of children in fatherless families
US 22%
UK 20.7% (2.5M / 12.074M)<p>Reports from the US show the effect that absence of a father has on nearly 22% of American children in a fatherless home is: <p>63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: US DHHS Bureau of the census)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
85% of all children that exibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Centre for Disease Control)
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behaviour, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principles Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: US Dept of Justice Special Report, Sept 1988)
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)<p>
and also<p>UK Marriage/Divorce Statistics 1994
Marriages/year 331.2K/year
Divorces/year 173.6K/year
Divorces with children (< 16)/year 99.55K/year
Probability of divorce 41%
Total children (<16) in married families 9M 12M-2.5M-0.5M
Total Children (< 16) in family divorce/year 189K/year 99.55 * 1.9
Average age of children in divorce 7 years
Percent mothers awarded sole residence 71%
Percent fathers awarded sole residence 7%
Percent joint residence awards (read mother) 21%
No. of married fathers loosing custody/year 91K/year 99.5 * 91.4%
% of married fathers loosing all contact after 3 years 50%
No. married of fathers loosing all contact after 3 yrs 45.2K/year <p>
check http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/stats.htm<p>scary stuff.

Nick - when my first marriage dissolved (no affair involved), neither my exH nor I could imagine a life without the kids. But, our new homes were going to be 6 hours apart. We agreed to joint legal and physical custody. Our arrangement was that for the first 18 months, the girls would live with him, and as much visitation as I wanted. The next two years, they would live with me, and then we would switch every two years.<p>The first switch went okay, when they came to live with me. When it was time for them to move back after two years, they did not want to go, and they have been adamant about not wanting to move back since then. They spend 6 weeks in the summer with him, one week at Xmas, one week at Easter. They talk on the phone with him every day.<p>Just thought I'd share what worked, or didn't work for us.

Nick,<p>First thing to realize is that the statistics you give are for fatherless homes. It appears that they also say that most children in divorced families live with their mothers. I wonder what the statistics would be in families where the children live with their fathers. I wonder if statistics would be high there too. The reason I say this is that children NEED BOTH of their birth parents if at all possible. Neither fathers nor mothers are more important in a child’s life.<p>I have however noticed that when boy gets to be about 12 years of age and up, it is very hard for a woman to parent them affectively. There is a need for a strong male influence. Women nurture their sons. Fathers civilize them. There is something similar that goes on with girls. I’ve read that girls with absent fathers are far more likely to be engaged in destructive sexual relationships early in life and become pregnant early.<p>If I were you, I’d push for sole custody and settle for 50%/50% (both legal and physical) if pushed. Aim high, then you are likely to get at least 50/50. Absolutely insist on being as involved in your child’s live as possible. She needs you to provide the stability her mother is not able to provide.<p>Is there anything in WS/OM’s history that would show the unfit? Does OM have a verifiable history of drug use, alcoholism, domestic violence, or a criminal record? Does WS have any of these? <p>If your wife is a good mother despite the affair, then you would be doing your daughter a disservice taking her away from her mother 100% or you dropping out of her life 100%. In this situation the only thing that matters is the well being of your daughter. If either of you take her way from the other with no real cause, she will become very very angry. Children love both parents and are protective of their relationship with both of them. The best thing for you daughter is for you both to cooperate. <p>Under the circumstances, I’d advise that you do not move out of the family home and fight for as much custody as possible. Then allow WS liberal visitation. Why? Because you wife is not acting in a stable manner. She is not working to maintain a happy, healthy home for your daughter. There is no guarantee that this relationship with OM is a long term/life long relationship. Odds are that it will only last two years. This is not what you want for you daughter. Fight for the right to give her a good, stable home. <p>My H has custody of his two youngest children D-12 and S-14. He went to court fighting for full custody. Used his WS’s life style (affairs, drugs, alcoholism, leaving the children unsupervised at night she that she could party, a physically abusive OM with whom she lived, the OM’s 14 DWI arrests, etc) to fight for it. What he ended up with is 50/50 legal custody and 100% physical custody. His ex has visitation as he agrees. A man can win custody when he has a good case.<p>Find a lawyer who fights for father’s rights. Take the statistics and info about your wife’s unstable life style to the judge. You may have a very good chance. <p>You may want to read the book Mom’s House, Dad’s House: Making Two Homes for Your Child.<p>One of the main reasons fathers loose custody of children is that they back out of their lives and leave the mother to be the primary care giver. You wife wants freedom, freedom to pursue an affair? Then let her do that (as though you have any control over it anyway). Become the primary care giver of your daughter. If one of you is going to move out, it should be your wife.. without your daughter. Let her face the consequences of her actions. Then, if this does some to divorce, you will already be the primary care giver. Courts usually do not like to change the status quo for a child. This was another thing my H did and a big reason why he got custody.<p>As long as you remain involved in your daughter’s life, she will probably never call OM ‘daddy’. He is not her father, nor will he ever be. When my stepchildren moved in they were afraid they would be forced to call me ‘mom’. They were pretty upset about it even though their mother has had little involvement in their lives for years. I told them that they could call me anything they pleased, as long as it was respectful of course. They continue to call me “Miss Ele” just as they did before I married their father. My son calls my husband by his given name. I’ve seldom seen a child call a stepparent ‘mom’ or ‘dad’ when their birth parent is involved in their lives.<p>You and WW are the parents. OM has no legal rights to be involved in any educational, medical, etc. decisions about your daughter, even if she is living in his home.
The middle solution of 50/50 custody is workable. It is tragic and unfortunate for a child but less damaging then if one of the parents drops out of the child’s life. My ex-h and I have 50/50 legal custody and 60/40 physical custody. It was hard to get used to but it works now. We and our son have adjusted. He enjoys having both of us in his life. And he likes being with me more then his dad because his dad is a difficult person at best. Being in the same town helps a lot. I do not see how share physical custody could work otherwise.<p>Even though right now you can only see the two extremes, the middle ground is the best and healthiest for your daughter. I am sure that with time you will grow to be able to handle it if necessary. <p>And yes the children are the ones who suffer the most from the follies of their parents. This is not fair to your daughter. Be a good father and buffer her from as much of it as you can. Be her rock even when it is hard for you.
You are after all her daddy.

Thanks everybody for their input. One thing to add: OM lives in San Fran whilest we are in UK. So, a 50:50 thing wont work anyway, as there's an ocean and a continent in between. That, obviously, complicates the lot. Only possible middleground would be that one of us would have her during holidays or something.

Nick,<p>If your wife and OM live that far apart, how much time have they actually spent together? Sounds like it could not be much.<p>Yet another reason for you to fight for custody. Sounds like she really does not know this man.

I'm afraid but that's unfortunately not the case. They know each other for something like 12 years, having studied together. the past 3 years they worked together as musicians where they met professionally (and privately too of course... but I did not know that till way later, silly me) at least once a month.
Sometimes I have this horrible feeling that he was the real thing for her, and I was 'just' the Affair.<p>[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</p>

You are the 'real thing' to your daughter.

Try to tell that to my WW! I could show you reams and reams of emails where she tells him how great he and our (my!) daughter fit together, what a good influence he is on her etc etc. Heartbreaking stuff, really.

About your stats: Dr. James Dobson in his book on "Secrets of Bringing up Boys" talks about the effect of father being abscent from a son's life. I am sure that this is similiar for daughters. Dobson says that statistics show that as long as the father is active in the son's (daughter's) life, being divorced does not seem to hurt the child.<p>I think you are right, our wifes are a bit similiar.<p>Are you deciding to go to Plan B? I think joint custody of your D close to 50-50 is great for both, but difficult for the D. Maybe WW gets most of custody and you get weekends? I do not know. I am faced with the same decision myself. I do not want to think about this, but I know it would better prepare myself just in case WW leaves.

Nick123 <p>You really do need to fight for custody if your wife intends on taking your daughter out of the country. <p>If she wins custody and moves to SF then if there is any way at all that you can move do so for your daughter. This is such hogwash. Why on earth do people think that they can just pick up kids and remove them from their family home?<p>Does your wife spend a lot of time away from home? Maybe, if it looks like things are moving towards divorce, you should just make it easy for her to travel to see OM as much as possible. This would leave you as primary care giver. If she wants to be free of the marriage, then let her to so. You take all of the responsibility for your daughter.<p>When I say that she does not know this man.. I still think that she may not. The length of time of knowing someone does not mean she 'knows' him. They obviously do not see each other all the time if he lives in SF. So what is he doing on all those long lonely nights? Pining away? Probably not. <p>I got a real eye opener about long distance relationships when I married my H. He lived in Maryland and I in New Mexico until a month after our wedding. In the two years we lived apart we talked on the phone daily, chatted via IM almost daily, visited each other monthly, took long vacations together. We knew each other's family and friends. I thought we knew everything about each other. Well he did about me. But what I did not know about him is that he was dating woman he met on the Internet. I was not around on those long lonely nights so it was easy to tell me that he was sleepy, say good night and hang up the phone. Only to have a phone/cyber-sex date with some bimbo he met on the Internet. And these bimbos were willing to met him anywhere he traveled for work too. When we married and set up a household together he just kept it up… it was so easy. It was 2.5 years before I realized what he was up to. Dr. Harley says that every marriage has a surprise… mine had an ugly surprise to be sure.<p>I could be all wet here, but there is a great possibility that your wife is not his only one and that he likes the long distance relationship. They have been at this for a long time. It makes it easy for him to not commit and to carry on another life.<p>Just wonder what surprise is waiting for her if she does move to SF. This is still an unstable situation for your daughter.

I forgot to add in my post. No way do you let her take her to a different country. She must stay within reasonable distance. This should be your boundary. I am sure your WW will pick her D over moving out of the country. Do not make it easy for the OM and your WW. You did nothing wrong.

Hi Nick-
I am sorry to see that your situation has not improved since you posted a while ago and I responded to you.<p>I suspect that one difficulty in breaking your wife's addiction to this man is the fact that it is a long distance affair. She has not ever really had to face reality. <p>I think it's great that you are in Plan A. Keep it up as long as you can. <p>Basically there's three options regarding custody, given the distance situation.

1) WW moves to OM's place in SF with your daughter. There may be immigration issues, issues with enrolling your D in school on a tourist visa. What kind of neighborhood does he live in? Can he afford to send her to private school? In the US, public schools vary widely in quality.
You would see her in the summer and perhaps some holidays- assuming your WW cooperated. What would be the laws if WW changed her mind and decided not to let D spend summer in England with you? Can you enforce your visitation agreement internationally?<p>2) OM moves to England to be with WW. They rent apartment together within visiting range of you. You work out some kind of joint custody agreement. You jointly agree to send her to a school in the area. You see your D at least every other weekend, and possibly during the week as well, plus during the summer and alternating holidays. It is difficult to accept your D going to OM and WW's apt but in time you adjust as your own life moves on. The payoff to adapting to a painful situation is that your D can have both parents in her life.<p>3)Your WW moves to SF to be with OM. You decide that you feel it is an unstable and insecure situation for your D, and you request custody. Your daughter stays in her neighborhood, you get a nanny to help you and your wife has visitation for summer and holidays. <p>There's also two other possibilities. 4)When your wife realizes the consequences, her fantasy life with OM dissolves and she breaks off the A, and recommits to your M.
OR 5)- you two end up divorced, with joint custody, but the relationship with OM falls by the wayside when reality hits them in the face.<p>However I wouldn't necessarily focus on the above two. Since your W is focused on the OM, I would just look at 1-3 since that is what she is envisioning- a life with OM.<p>What are your feelings about these options?<p>You mention your wife's e-mails about what a good influence OM is on D. Has OM met your daughter or spent much time with her? Does he have any children of his own?<p>What are your feelings about your own parenting skills? You talk about D needing a mother... Are you involved with D, do you spend time with her?Do you play games with her, read stories, go to school events etc.? If not, would you want to improve your parenting skills ? Does your wife handle most of the parenting? Are you comfortable in the role of fathering? Would your wife think of you as a good role model for D? Working on your relationship with your D can be a part of Plan A.<p>Curious about your answers to these questions....

Hi,<p>Many thanks for all your input. Some answers to questions raised:<p>Dreamland:<p><strong>
Are you deciding to go to Plan B?[&#8230; ] I do not want to think about this, but I know it would better prepare myself just in case WW leaves.
</strong><p>Not yet at least. But I'm at a stage where I start to contemplate contingency plans & figure out what the various options would mean. I still hope for the best, but if it wont be then at least I want to be well prepared.<p>Espoir:<p><strong>
I am sorry to see that your situation has not improved since you posted a while ago and I responded to you.
</strong>
Well, you know how it is: two steps forward, one step back. Last week it was unfortunately one step forward, two steps back. Let's see&#8230;<p><strong><p>I suspect that one difficulty in breaking your wife's addiction to this man is the fact that it is a long distance affair. She has not ever really had to face reality.
</strong>
Agree&#8230;. Also coming to that is the 'no motiviation to change behaviour' thing as she gets currently from me attention, stable home, support and from OM the thrill and the sweet dreams.<p><strong>
Basically there's three options regarding custody, given the distance situation.
</strong><p>I completely agree with the range of options you've raised - I did exactly the same analysis for myself with the same outcome. But, as you may agree, looking at it, none of these options look really appealing! Most look actually quite scary. <p>Option 1 (WW&D move to SD) - visa problems; can only be mitigated by quick Divorce & Marriage. BTW, OM is poor and could never afford private school (I reckon I would foot the bill for that). Visitations internationally surely not enforcable.
Option 2 - OM move to UK - he would then have the visa problems, again only quick marriage & divorce might help. On top of that, neither WW nor I are UK nationals, so even with (re-) marriage he couldn&#8217;t stay in UK. Besides, he couldn&#8217;t make a living here.
Option 3 - WW buggers off, D stays with me: could work, but D will miss her mom a lot surely. Besides, will have a HUGE fight on my hands to get to this option.
Option 4 - breaking off A & reconciliation: yep, that'll be great. But sometimes I think pigs will learn to fly sooner than that. (but still hopeful)
Option 5 - likely outcome, indeed.<p>Again, objectively judged, all options really suck, don&#8217;t they just.<p><strong>
Has OM met your daughter or spent much time with her? Does he have any children of his own?
</strong><p>He has a couple of times, spent maybe a couple of afternoons in her company. He hasn&#8217;t any children of his own.<p>
<strong>
What are your feelings about your own parenting skills? You talk about D needing a mother... Are you involved with D, do you spend time with her?Do you play games with her, read stories, go to school events etc.?
</strong>
Let's say, I improved and learnt a lot. At the beginning I admit I was a bit overwhelmed and didn't know what to do..&#8230;It surely was a steep learning curve, but maybe I'm not alone here. Mothers have here a competitive advantage I think. Anyway, this could have been a reason for WW starting affair possibly as family needs very big EN for her. Maybe she was dissappointed in me at the time? I remember, I had to do some military service at the time & couldn&#8217;t spend as much time at home as I wanted.
Now, I think I'm doing v. well as a father: for a couple of years now I spend every weekend with her full-time. Since she goes to school (for 9 months now) I bring her to school everyday. Also, I always took care & full responsibility of her (but with nanny's help) while WW was frequently away on her "work related" trips.<p>There's always that bit more you could (and probably should) do&#8230; but that's what I do & I can say that relationship with D is terriffic, growing stronger, and in comparison to colleagues who are dads, I spend much more time with her.<p>[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</p>

Oh, forgot to add (not particularly part of this thread):<p>
Apparently OM had Hepathitis B at some point.... Know that WW went to see a doctor a while ago who wrote back a letter (which I've read) saying that she doesn't have got it, but that there are traces of a healed past Hep B infection.<p>Did she tell me about the whole thing?<p>Of course not.

Your wife is mistaken.If she had a outbreak of hepatitisB it means she is a carrier of the virus. Hepatiitis B cannot be cured. I would recommend that you go for STDs tests and get vaccinated for hepatitis B. Good luck.

Nick, sorry I haven't had a chance to post back. I don't have time to respond to your "options" post, but will say about the Hepatitis B-
Hepatitis B is a serious illness that is epidemic world wide. I don't know where you and your wife are from, but in certain countries it is very prevalent- India is one example among many. Hepatitis B is spread through blood, bodily fluids (tears, saliva) and sexual contact. A certain percentage of people who contract it go on to develop "chronic active Hepatitis B". They continue to be infectious and are at risk for complications such as liver failure or liver cancer. <p>A test for the Hepatitis B antibody will tell you if you have ever been exposed to the virus. It sounds like your wife may have been infected before she had the affair with OM. A test for the Hepatitis B antigen tells you if there is still infectious virus particles in the blood. Probably your wife tested negative for the antigen which is why the doctor called the infection "healed".<p>I strongly recommend that you get yourself tested. If negative, you should get vaccinated. Hepatitis B is very infectious- far more infectious than AIDS. Although your wife is probably not infectious, there is no sense taking a risk when a simple vaccination can protect you. In the US, all children now are routinely vaccinated against B.<p>And while you're at it, have them check for A as well. Hepatitis A is far milder, but a nasty inconvenience. You get it from eating contaminated sea food. There's a vaccine. I got it and I am able to enjoy my sea food without worrying about that particular problem. <p>PS. I am a nurse which is how I learned the above.

thanks for the advice espoir,
WW indeed comes from a country with hep B prevalence and getting myself checked out / a shot is definately adivsable, I agree. Point still is that HE got it at some point, SHE was concerned about herself when she found out about him having had it and did bugger all about telling/warning me (while continuing being intimate with me)