I've been lurking for a while, but this is the first time I've posted, so let me give you my story before my questions.<P>My H and I (married 8 years)have been living in England getting our masters degrees this year. We planned to wait one more year to start our family, but discovered in January that I was pregnant. H didn't know how to handle the news, started going out multiple nights per week with his (male) friends, never invited me. Always assured me it was "just the guys". <P>Turns out one of those "guys" nights turned into more. I went out of town for a project for the month of July. When he joined me in August, I noticed peculiar behavior and monitored his e-mail, almost immediately found several love letters to OW and various references to her in e-mails to friends.<P>I confronted H immediately (I just can't hold something like this to myself), but I was very proud of how calm I was as we discussed everything. He admitted to a sexual affair, said that the pregnancy and my weight (a constant battle that had been improving) were reasons. Said that he loves me (and baby), and that he never plans to see OW again.<P>I thought we were making real progress, but had to return to England to finish our studies. The same behavior (going out almost every night, coming home late or not at all) resumed. He says that it's because it's the last time he will be able to spend with his friends. We're leaving the country soon, so I resigned myself to live with that for a few weeks.<P>We have tried to open communications, so last night I told him of some triggers that had made me think of him and OW. I felt need to discuss affair some more. He got very upset, does NOT think that I should hear details about what happened. I tried explaining how my imagination fills in the blanks, but he would not accept that. I'm going to try reading some more of the MB info with him (he is very receptive to this).<P>Anyway, so now I get to my real question for tonight. I told H that I wanted us to go through the photographs he has of H and OW (can you believe they took pictures of themselves together everywhere?!?) so we can throw them out together. Asked him where the photos were that I saw a couple weeks ago, he said that they were here. Well, tonight I found those photos, and they weren't the ones I had seen before! These were worse - DH and OW together many times, fancy dinners, even kissing.<P>I snooped a little to find these pictures, even though I told dh I wanted to do this together. I was worried he would throw them away (or just tell me he threw them away) and I wouldn't KNOW that it was done. I'm still worried about that. Do I tell him I found the new pictures?<P>Also, I'm worried about the other pictures that I saw before. Although he swears he hasn't seen OW since we've been back, he does admit to talking to her on the phone "a couple of times". My fear is that he saw her, and gave her the pictures. What do I do if he can't prodduce these other pictures?<P>Sorry I've rambled on so long. I really do think that we will rebuild our marriage, but I'm so hurt at seeing these pictures - H is out tonight with his friends, so of course I can't talk to him about them. I just need someone to talk to!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>HurtAndConfused

H&C--<BR>So you're expecting your baby any time? Congrats!<P>It is a very good thing that your H is receptive to info. at this site. Show him your posts; ask him if he wishes to post also. He would also be very welcome here. <P>Coming home late and even staying out all night is a serious lovebuster, IMHO. I hope you at least know how to contact him, at all times, especially due to your condition.<P>From his viewpoint, I would imagine the pictures make him feel very uncomfortable, ashamed, and a feeling of strong guilt probably settles in. Since he is willing to work on the marriage (yea!), it is an easier matter, hopefully, for you to explain to him how you feel, and your worries. Tell him you hope that he is willing to produce all the pictures for your "ceremony" of putting it all behind you both. If it were me, I'd even tell him you were concerned that he may give the pictures to the OW, and you can see how that might have been a thought, "BUT you see, dear husband, you are mine as I am yours--those pictures are something not of us, painful for me--and therefore, I want 'em destroyed. SURELY, dear husband, you can see my point of view too...it would make me very happy for us to do this"....smile, touch, sweet expression.<P>Think it might work?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

Thanks for replying. What you said makes a lot of sense. But I still have two big questions:<P>1) Do I tell H that I found the pictures? Or do I pretend that I didn't look and hope that he produces them (and doesn't "throw them away" when I'm not around).<P>2) The pictures brought up a number of issues that I wasn't aware of before, such as the length of the relationship, interaction with OW around his friends - someone had to take all the pictures of the two of them together! I feel like I need to talk about these things, but will this just be me revisiting the past when we should be working on our current relationship?<P>

Sometimes you have to revisit the past to put it behind you. I think your questions are very valid. I would definitely tell your H you found the pictures...here they are, are there any more?....he may accuse you of snooping, if so, try to keep it light...be honest. If you pretend you didn't look and he lies, it's only going to upset you more, and he'll feel "set-up."<P>Try talking to him in short sessions; he may be more receptive to answering your questions if he sees an end to "the torture" soon. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

Sometimes when you have the truth, like you have a confession from the husband, it can be a lovebuster to bring out all the products of your snooping.... Maybe better if you work towards resolution with bigger goals, maybe asking husband if he wants to take a look at the emotional needs questionaire, and then the honesty one, and then the POJA? And then maybe he will see the benefits of a better marriage, and will want to destroy those things with you!<P>I think we must be careful when we want our marriage to work, to not get caught up in our own pain until we/them have been reassured that you have learned the tools to make it good.<P>Don't look behind you or down at your feet, but straight ahead! (Gypsy proverb. Very very good.)<P>

I am realizing this morning that my real issue here is honesty. The pictures point to a relationship that was longer and deeper than he has admitted to. But I don't know if he is minimizing these things (either consciously or unconsciously) because he feels guilty and doesn't want to hurt me more, or if there really is more going on than he has told me.<P>As I stated in my profile, H swears that he hasn't seen OW since we have returned to England (about 3 weeks), but he does admit to calling her a couple of times. He absolutely refuses to give up this "friendship". My fear is that he really has been seeing her. I guess I'm thinking that if he can't produce all the pictures I have seen, then that is "proof" that he has seen her to exchange pictures.<P>We're leaving the country at the end of the week, so maybe I should just bide my time and wait until we're back in the US. I know he won't be able to see her any more once we are there. But I feel that if he has been lying to me, then any "rebuilding" we do is also based on lies...

I'm thinking your H is being stubborn about last links with the OW wants to keep those pictures himself. <P>Maybe you're right, patience IS a virtue. I was never very patient when I'm upset (tackle the problem NOW, then file it away), though I try to use calm techniques in approaching my H with problems. You know better than anyone what techniques to use in talking to your H, and when the best time to do that might be. Perhaps during the long trip home itself?<P>Your H is lovebusting right now with his phone calls with the OW. There's no way this wouldn't upset you and yet he does it anyway. Don't rely on distance as the deciding factor that their affair is over -- RobertaMinneapolis' posts case-in-point. There's still phone calls, e-mail for contact. Emotional affairs linger and sometimes logic doesn't matter at all. <P>I still like using the pictures in a ceremony between the two of you, and it might be a good idea to do that before your trip home...a fresh start COMING home. You could write down your questions, posed in a form for easy answers (yes or no, or only brief responses required)..and ask him to write those answers down. After you've read them, burn the paper too. Then hand him another paper, saying something like, "The past is now behind us, forgiven and forgotten. Let's look to the future. I love you. Do you promise to love, honor and cherish me, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part?" Let him write down his answer and then tell him you happily keep THIS paper. <P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lucks (edited September 12, 1999).]

I wanted to address this post for a couple of reasons. I too found a lot of pictures of my H with the OW and just of the OW, some NAKED! even of them together naked! Most of them were of her in skimpy bathing suits. The first pictures I found were actually from film I had redeveloped that had been hidden in his flight bag. I wasted no time telling him that I had found and developed them. It was all over my face! I cried and wept, not understanding how he could have naked and near naked pictures of her when he carried no more that one picture of me, taken at school no less. I am attractive, thin and blond. (thinner now because of post affair psychological dieting!) I photograph well and was once, in earlier years a model for local fashion shows.<BR> I did not give him my copies or even show him which ones I had, but I did tell him I had them. That was early in the discovery stage of the affair, and I figured I might need to keep the evidence to share either with my attorney or HER husband! I did ask him where his copies were and if he had more. He admitted to having a few more but would not tell me were they were. I pointed out that I did not want to have them delivered to me years from now from his personal safety deposit box or work locker if he were to meet a early death. ( A thought that had crossed my mind few times! ) <BR>He told me they were in a safe place, that I would never find them, nor would the kids. From that point on it became a mission to find the pics. I searched everywhere. We have a farm with two cabins on the property and I cannot tell you how long I searched there. I eventually found the packet. He was working on the cabin he and his parents were building and I had gone to the shed to get some fence poles. I found the pictures and sooooo much more. Love letters, Inca trinkets, the bi$#h is from Peru but lives in Hawaii, and there were pictures of them together in Peru, Brazil, Alaska, San Francisco and Hawaii. In hotel rooms, on the beach, in restraunts, climbing mountains! IT WAS AWFUL!!!!! There was a copy of a letter he had sent to her calling her his amore, telling her she was so photogenic and that he "could not tell her how much he lover her!" It hurt soooo bad and still hurts now, 6 months later to relive the experience. At the time I had found the pictures, he had not seen her for about a month and 1/2 and had told me it was totally over with her. There was, however, in the same packet, phone bills from a secret phone card service (Voice Net) indicating that he had talked to her several times. There were also letters from her indicating that he had told her "nothing was going to change, just because I found out!" <BR>Did I keep the pictures? Yes, for two days. Did I tell him I had found them? Yes, about two hours later when I had my emotions under some control. He said, when confronted, that his relationship with her had been a fantasy, a dream, that He loved her differently than he did me, but loved me too. His love for her was just so PASSION filled and ours was just so practical. He wanted his pictures back. They were his memories and he would not deny that the experience had happened in his life and wanted the pictures to keep the memories even if he never saw her again!<P>I told him I would think about it. The next day I went to Wal-Mart and got a photo album. On my computer at school I typed some labels with Names, places and dates and proceeded to construct a photo album that he could proudly share with family, friends and collegues of his previously secret life. I did not include any pictures of them together or of her in her little sexy outfits and bibinis. I called him to school at my lunch break and made him go through the album with me to tell me all about the places that they had been together, since I had not been there to see those places for myself. All this was probably big time love busting, I know now, but had not heard of Dr. H. or his ideas at that time. I told H I knew those pics were his and that I had no right to destroy or keep any of them, but that the only ones I could even consider allowing to be in our home were the ones in the album, and I did not even like that idea very much. It hurt too much. I told him if my feelings meant anything to him, that if he were honestly interested in saving our marriage, he would get rid of all of them. He took the album and the ones not included, the letters and trinkets and left for home. He took the pics out of the album when he got home and put them all (except the naked ones, cuz I had kept them and told him he would never get those back!) in the same packet they had originally been in. He carried that packet around with him, in his flight bag, for the next two months! I did not let the issue drop. I let him know how much it hurt for him to have those pictures and that I would not be able to fully recover if he continued to keep them. OW meanwhile had left HA to go to the hills of Peru to "get over" my H. He decided that when she returned to HA, he would send the pics and cards to her, and let her decide what to do with them. She returned to HA two months later and yet he was still dragging his feet, saying he was afraid she would see the return of the pics as a rejection.!!! Finally, I asked him to let me write a letter from my point of view, as to why the existence of the pictures could no longer be tolerated in my home if he and I were to survive as a couple. I told her in the letter that he would always "treasure" his memories of their times together, but his need for her companionship no longer existed!<BR> When I let H read the letter and began packing up the pics, be began to cry. I honestly emphasized with him and started to cry too. Then we hugged and hugged. Then I told him we would just seal the packet and pack it away up in the attic! That surprise both of us!!<BR>He, however, said "No" he was ready to move on and it really was best to get it over with!<P>Now, he might have a secret stash of copies of those letters and pictues, but at least we went through the motions to solve the problem. Hell, I might have a secret stash too!??!<P>The OW called ME when she got the pictures, but that is another story!<P>Don't know what you might use from this story, but maybe it was theraputic for me to tell it. Keep us posted.<BR>

Pilot's Wife--<P>What DID the OW say when she phoned you????<P>(Sorry, H&C for asking this q on your thread) <p>[This message has been edited by Lucks (edited September 12, 1999).]

PW-<P>Thanks for your post. It helps to know that someone else has been through this issue with the photographs, even though hopefully I'll deal with it a bit differently than you did. Your H was also telephoning OW - when did he stop doing that? Any relation between resolving the issues of the pictures and telephone calls?<P>It's so hard to believe that H would make such a graphic record of their time together (I don't mean sex pictures, just lots of pictures with the two of them - both alone and with friends - everywhere they went). He likes taking pictures, but we never take so many pictures together (and never of us kissing)! Maybe this is something we need to start doing. <P>I'm sorry, but I haven't been reading posts long enough to be familiar with your story. How are you and H doing now? It sounds like you are together and working on your marriage. I would be grateful for any other insight you have on getting through to H in this situation - says he loves me and won't see OW again, but won't exclude her from his life (phone calls) either. And I'll let you know what happens with the pictures. Thanks so much for your time.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by HurtAndConfused (edited September 12, 1999).]

OK, I couldn't help myself. I checked up on H by calling OW. He has been out with his friends since yesterday afternoon (that's right, YESTERDAY afternoon - it's almost 8pm here now). He called me at noon to let me know he was going out with his friends for the rest of the day, wouldn't be back until late this evening. His reasoning is that we're leaving the country this week, one of his friends is leaving tomorrow, and this is the last time he will be able to see them.<P>Anyway, after my discovery of the new pictures last night, and not being able to talk to H about them because he's not HERE, I had just about convinced myself that he must be seeing OW again. So I've tried calling her apartment a couple times today, but no one was home. She answered the phone when I tried at 7:30 (I pretended it was a wrong number). This makes me feel much better, since she lives at least 2 hours away. If she had been here with H, she would not be home yet. So maybe now I can take a deep breath and not keep assuming the worst.<BR>

This last bash with the guys has taken on epic proportions. H called me at midnight to let me know that he won't be home yet again, he's with his friends at a club. Which means that he'll drink and sleep over at his friends' place to recover before driving the car home. It will have been almost 48 hours since he has even been home.<P>He had promised to come home early tonight, since we're leaving for a 3 day trip early tomorrow morning (thank goodness - I'll be able to spend time with him for the first time in weeks). So he's breaking his promise yet again, and is going to be tired driving tomorrow morning.<P>Although I'm glad he won't be drinking and driving, he KNOWS how upset and sad I am from this. Yet he still chooses to stay out rather than come home. I'm pretty sure he's not with OW. What is the big draw of going out every night? Does he need to feel like he's single one last time before the baby comes?<P>I just feel so alone and like I'm last on his priorities - he likes to spend time with me, but only once he's done everything else he wants to do first. He just keeps promising that everything will be better once we leave. Even though this will be over tomorrow (since we're leaving on a trip together), I don't know how I'm going to make it through the night. It's so hard to sleep with this going on.

I dont know how many times I keep hearing this sort of thing... and how many times people keep saying "trust them, dont lovebust them by snooping or showing them you have snooped"...<P>And how many times it has failed miserably!!!<P>Regardless what I read here I keep coming back to the same conclusion and yes it IS a generalisation which mean it might not work everywhere but it is common...<P>A person will _continue_ to lie to you as long as they dont think you can find out. Your husband is NOT going to tell you he has any contact with OW if he believes in his mind there is no possible way you can know of it.<P>What I would do... but this is ONLY if your H is the kind of person that is capable of accepting his own wrong doings...<P>Is to ask him if he has any more photos. When he says "No" (and he will definately say No regardless if he has forgotten the other photos or not)... ask him if he is really, really sure... none hidden in closets or old bags or shoe boxes, none he has forgotten about. Get him to look around first, tell him to hunt high and low for anything he may have forgotten.<P>When at last he comes back and says "No there are NO more photos", go directly to where they are (make sure they are still there BEFORE you do this though, wouldn't want to go there and find them now gone) and reveal them.<P>Why would you do this???<P>Now he has "lost" that thought in his head that says "She cannot possibly know the truth therefor I can lie". He has no cover now, you asked him to look, you asked him to remember... he failed. If he claims he forgot them you can ask him what else he forgot...<P>Either way you now have something that hopefully (providing he is a decent person) will stir something in his head. You now have the opportunity to say to him "If you were not honest to me about THIS... what else are you not honest about and why would I trust you knowing full well you lied to me about this?"<P>He might be upset that you "lured him into a trap"... but the bottom line is the trap would never have been there if he was honest. I have done this a few times and the people who get the most angry about you doing it are those who tries to take the high and mighty moral ground in proudly stating their honesty... what happened was they lost face, they were shown up and they forgot that if they were actually honest it would be impossible for a person to "trap" them.<P>Please dont take this advice if you think your H is in any way one of those people who cannot stand to be shown their own faults because no matter what you do these kinds of people are ONLY ever happy when they are on top, in front and above all totally deceiving themselves and everyone around them that they are good and decent people... the moment you show them anything to the contrary they will attack you viciously to cover their deceipt.

LostSoul-<P>Thanks for the reply. I don't know whether I would do what you suggest or not. I've done similar things in the past, and usually he does NOT tell me more until I show him my proof. Of course, he hates being set up and proven that he lied. Although he has told me many things about his affair that I did NOT have proof about, so I believe that he really is trying.<P>But in this case I don't think your suggestion is an option for me. We talked about getting the pictures and destroying them together, and he told me they were here. That's how I discovered the new ones I hadn't seen before. But the other two rolls of film that I thought I was looking for, well, I don't think they're even here any more. So although I do have absolute knowledge of the existence of these other pictures, I have no idea where they are.<P>I'm waiting for H to come home right now so we can leave on our trip. He said he wanted to read some of the MB material (rather than talk about the affair itself, which he thinks is counterproductive) while we're gone, so hopefully we can finish going over the rule of honesty and come to a real agreement on it. We need to do the POJA again, too. We read it together and he said that he agreed, but this last week has been proof that it went in one ear and out the other. Anyway, I'm hoping that going over these things when we have some real time together will help him be more honest with me about the pictures.<BR>