I was talking to a relative today who is a marriage and family therapist. I was talking about the loneliness I feel going through this most significant experience of my life, very pivotal, and how sad it is to go through it without a significant other that I can feel connected to. It feels like I would imagine it would feel if I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, and my H didn't want to talk about it, hear about it, work on it, make plans about it, etc.<p>We no longer have the things in common that we used to. We don't look at the world the same way as we used to. It's like we speak two different languages. I have no sense of connectedness, and I feel like I have to monitor everything I say and do and can never be myself or entrust myself and my feelings to him the way I used to.<p>I was sharing with this relative how I don't think that this state of things is because of his WS status because there are WSs on this board with whom I feel connected on the issue of infidelity in that we view it the same way and will evaluate it the same way and respond to it in the same way when a WS currently in the midst of an A comes here seeking input.<p>I was trying to figure out why it feels so different with my H, and I think it's because the recovering WSs here have gained that insight into what happened and have made peace with themselves about it and no longer identify with the mindset they had in the midst of the A. They've grown out of all that.<p>My relative told me that my H is diagnosable as a narcissist and that narcissists by definition have no insight. Everything is always someone else's fault. When I told her about a time before when I thought my H was truly remorseful about something, she postulated that it is likely that that period of time when we were withdrawn from each other may have been about an A as well, but he didn't get caught, so maybe had some fear of losing me and did what had to be done as far as apologizing and praying and showing emotion.<p>I figure this is a definite possibility, especially adding together his behaviors in the past with what I've learned in this forum about repeat WSs.<p>So, now I'm feeling hopeless and dismayed again. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I feel like we've barely scratched the surface of the problems in this M, and I feel ill-equipped to do anything about it, or that it's an exercise in futility to even try.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>Everything is always someone else's fault.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yep, he has no mirror.<p>You, however, have this powerful tool, and you're using it.<p>You're making a huge investment in yourself right now. It will pay off.

You are right, you have barley scratched the surface. But- and this is a big but, so have the rest of us. You don't have to make everything work this week, in fact you can't and you know it. <p>I have read thousands of posts ( and so have you) and you know that even the ones that feel that their marriages are saved (so to speak) say things like this. " well, we are doing better than I ever thought we could but we still have a long way to go." <p>You KNOW by now that these negitive feelings always come, but THEY ALWAYS LEAVE TOO. Relax a little bit, do some re-charging. You will be Ok. <p>Notice that I didn't touch the subject of your post. Why? Because it may be wrong, you don't know for sure. And even if you did, there may be a cure. But you can never see it when you are feeling down. <p>So, get feeling up and come back and tell us what you think. We love you, and you know it. I believe you will make it. I think your name says it truthfully. <p>See ya,
SS

My MC also mentioned that my WH shows some of narcissist personality. Do you know any more about it, or know where we can read some more?
Maybe all WS in the fog are narcissist until they come out of it?
KK

Thanks, WAT and SS, for the encouragement. I am determined to stay the course on my own recovery, but it seems the more I do that, the more distance there is between us. I feel like I keep looking back, and he's not doing anything to catch up with me. I feel like I'm leaving him behind.<p>kk, I'm not really familiar with narcissistic personality disorder, but I know some personality disorders are basically incurable. The way my relative was talking, it sounded as though she didn't expect him to ever take personal responsibility for what he did to this M. That's apparently what I'm here for in his eyes. She has known him as long as I have, so she is basing this on her observations through the years, not just this recent fiasco.

I did a search on this, since some of the things you guys described seemed to be relevant to my stbx's behaviour. This site describes Narcissism, but also points out that some of the characteristics of narcissism are shared by other personality disorders.<p>http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html#npd<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

I posted a bunch of stuff about this in Feb/March... something like that...<p>I understand what you're talking about... the thing is... is he truly narcissistic or just a 'phase?' I think MLC could be determined as a really nasty phase of narcissism...<p>just some thoughts,
Cali

some links from when I was checking it out:<p>narcissism <p> Narcissitic/Borderline Couple <p>Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I am determined to stay the course on my own recovery, but it seems the more I do that, the more distance there is between us. I feel like I keep looking back, and he's not doing anything to catch up with me. I feel like I'm leaving him behind. <hr></blockquote><p>I wonder if that is why Harley says if his wife ever had an A he would leave? <p>It ( what you said in your quote) is the same with many here and it is true, very true. It happens with people that go to school and get an advanced degree, to people that "get religion" and so on. It this case, you discovered MB and he has not got it - yet. <p>Big problem is, you worry if he will ever get it.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Cali Said
I think MLC could be determined as a really nasty phase of narcissism...
<hr></blockquote>
Probably only you would know if he has always been this bad, if he got worse, if you think he can get better. But here I am talking negitive. Everyone can change - at least I believe that they can. That's another thing we learn from this site, people can repent and change. So what are his chances? You tell us, but do it on an UP day.
And BTW, we care today, just as much as we did yesterday. So there!
SS<p>[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Jacky and Cali,<p>Thank you so much for the links. I'm going to check them out and read all I can as soon as my work's caught up.<p>SS,<p>Well, I wouldn't call this an up day, but I'm trying to be real. I've felt this way (waiting for him to catch up) throughout the M basically. I feel like the theme of this M for me has been waiting, hoping and praying for him to love me the way I need and want to be loved. A few months ago I posted about journal writings from 2 months into the M that I came across and realized it was all the same issues then as currently. Even though there wasn't the exact issue of infidelity back then, many of the same features were distressing me.<p>Reading that stuff was very chilling actually because of how prophetic it was. One of the issues then was a "friend" from before he met me. His story was that she moved here from out of town and didn't have a place to stay, so he let her stay at his house until she could find her own place. It soon became apparent from things other relatives said that this person was actually a live-in girlfriend. What was so distressing to me was that this was something for which there was no reason to lie, mislead, or deceive. Why on earth would I care if he had a girlfriend living with him before he met me?<p>It got worse when I confronted him with what I was learning from the rest of his family about it. He CONTINUED to deny that she was a girlfriend. Then I'd hear more from relatives when I'd tell them of his denials, then I'd ask him again. Finally, I got specific and asked him if they ever had sex, and after much pressing, he finally admitted that he gave in when she came in when he was sleeping and was "doing things" to him. Anyway, the more this issue was discussed, the more I felt he was hiding and all the more frustrating because THERE WAS NO REASON TO! <p>When I would contend that a sexual partner is considered a girlfriend. He continued to insist on semantic differences and ridiculous things like that. My journal entries at that time were in the form of letters to him in which I pointed out to him why this issue was so upsetting to me--that if he couldn't admit that woman was a live-in girlfriend, then how would I ever know who was whom in his life: "You could have a sexual partner in the future and call her a co-worker, a customer, a friend, or whatever label is convenient." I explained why that made me feel so unsafe--If he was refusing to admit the truth about something from BEFORE we met, how could I trust him to tell the truth about relationships with other women DURING our M?<p>What a portent that was of things to come! <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> When I go back to these things, I'm starting to think the signs were there all the time, and I failed to see them. Even before we were married, he told me about his promiscuity and said it this way, "I have a problem." When he confessed this A, he referred back to that, as if the A were my fault because "I TOLD you I had a problem!!" Was he trying to warn me before we were married in some strange way? Of course, back then he reassured me that he never had a problem when he was married (2 previous Ms)--the promiscuity only being when he was single.<p>I'm starting to wonder if I have been completely naive and in denial for all these years, that I probably should have seen this coming somehow. The cold hard facts are that I have been diagnosed with STDs only twice in my life, and both times have been during this M. He still denies any responsibility for the first one, which occurred during pregnancy with our first child. Regarding the one we both tested positive for last year, he claims the OW tested negative for it, so maybe he DID use condoms with her as he claims and only gave it to me, which means he got it from a sexual partner prior to this particular OW.<p>This M may have been a lost cause before it ever began, and maybe I've been running from facing that for all this time. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

C,
I came over here after answering your question on the Recovery board..was wondering what was going on.<p>I feel like the theme of this M for me has been waiting, hoping and praying for him to love me the way I need and want to be loved. <p>But that has never happened has it? Even in the good times. You can't make someone love you in any other way than what they are capable of. You can't change him...and I think you know that.<p>No matter what you figure out about previous infidelities..and I will be honest with you..He was unfaithful when he gave you the trichamonis during your pregnancy...he will rationalize, attack and explain it all away...and you know what? Let him..that's him.<p>More important is that you don't rationalize what you feel. That you don't compromise your beliefs. And that you be honest.<p>You said in another thread that you feared D because you had been through it and it was easier to deal with him this way then as a vengeful EX..How bad is it going to have to get before you leave? If it stays in the status quo( as it is now) are you content to spend the rest of your life feeling just the way you feel now? Screaming in silence?<p>I know you want your marriage to work, I know what it's like to be in a second relationship when the first has failed. Fear of facing the failure twice is almost to humiliating to bear.<p>Conquerer....do you love him? Do you trust him? Do you like what this whole mess has forced you to become?<p>I know this sounds like a pessimistic post. But I also remember your posts from a year ago, and quite frankly, it tears me apart to see how this is affecting you. It's not getting better, is it? And worse, it's dragging you down.<p>I apologize for being so forward in this post..if you would like to continue more privately, you can email me.
T

My only comment is this... and it's driven from my perspective as a BS who had very little "clue" about what bomb was about to be dropped on him on Sept. 3, 2001...<p>The point being that if you really are getting to a point where you can't go on - and feel you need to end it... you probably need to lay it all out on the table - lay it completely bare... but at least be open about it... give him a chance to respond... even if you have to say, "I'm sorry, it just won't work" - at least have a vision in your head about a path that you will stick to come hell or high water...<p>So I wonder if you're at a point where you could do that (leave the M) with "no regrets". That's probably something you'd need to think long and hard about - in a "fogless" way [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I suppose regret is possible, one way or another. That was a point IC/MC made to WW - she's going to have regrets regardless of choice... (Gah... kind of a bad thing to help the M... but valid I suppose!)<p>I guess I'm being all MBish - which is ironic because tonight - I'm really ready to quit myself. But it's one of those things... finding the right path is pretty difficult... We're all trying.

(((((((((Conquerer))))))))))))) I have been keeping up with your posts recently and they sound so sad. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> I also have been waiting in my M for my H to love me the way that I deserve, want and need to be loved. I also have spent many lonely years hoping and waiting for that day to come. I still don't know whether that day will come or not. My FWH does have a diagnosed personality disorder, tho its one of the milder ones.I have expressed to him what it is I need and hope to get. Now its up to him. <p>Its difficult for a person who has never been shown that kind of love in his life to give it to someone else. Its something that requires a lot of effort and a re-training of themselves to accomplish. I know this because this is my H. He says that he is willing to try to do this. He's "tried" before since we have been in recovery and so far it usually ends up petering out. So I am going to keep reminding him, lovingly. Because right now this M is what I want but I know that unless we both work to create a better M than the one we had before, I may eventually leave, even if there are no further A's. If he chooses, and it is ultimately a choice, not to do the work that is essential for this M, then I may have some choices to make for me. Because ultimately I know that I can't make him love me the way I need. Only he can choose to do this.<p>I'm sorry I don't have any words of comfort for you, I feel like I am in somewhat of the same spot as you are tho not as far along past d-day as you. I guess I am also really trying to look at what my reality may end up being and making the attempt to accept it. I just have to be alright with it. I hope tomorrow is better for you. Hugs, C

I'm in full meltdown now and so profoundly sad. And as usual, it is terrible timing. I haven't been able to get to sleep yet, and it's nearly 5 in the morning. I have a work deadline on Saturday that requires maximum time and effort both Friday and Saturday to meet. Sunday is Father's Day, and my father is here, so I want it to be pleasant for him. Monday and Tuesday I have to get family members on planes. I don't see any way I can deal with my M until after all that.<p>Twyla,<p>I do remember times in the M when I had such hope and maybe even joy, but it always seemed that it would get dashed. Highs and lows until the lows finally outnumbered and pretty much eliminated the highs. I know that I share responsibility in perpetuating the pathological marital patterns from the beginning. But I can remember so early on feeling like I was interchangeable, as if the things he valued about me were the things any woman could provide in a R, that there was nothing special about me.<p>But then why marry me? Especially when I had so many children. Surely someone else would have been less problematic just in a practical way, so then I'd think that my good qualities must have been valued enough to make taking on that many stepchildren seem worth it. So I'd go back and forth like this trying to understand why I it was so hard for me to feel loved in this M. In my first M, I felt adored until the rug was pulled out from under me at the end. I don't remember ever feeling that way in this M.<p>I married my first H because it seemed that he couldn't live without me, so I thought it would be safe, that he would never leave me. I wanted to be more realistic this time, so I thought that lack of adoration was probably a good, more down-to-earth thing. I felt like he wanted me sometimes, but I never felt that he couldn't live without me.<p>I do not love him anymore. I can't imagine ever trusting him again, and I don't think I should. I know it can't go on like this. I thought in some ways it was getting better in that he does treat me better in routine everyday life, but my feelings for him have not gotten better. You are so right that is very hard to face the end of a M. I feel like I have reached the end of the line of what I can do. I still have a lot of work to do on myself to get where I want to be physically, emotionally, spiritually, but I basically WAS there at the beginning of this M. I basically just want to be an older, wiser version of the real me I was then.<p>But if he began the infidelity so early in the M, then he had the best I had to offer, and it wasn't enough, so completely regaining my core self now probably won't have a major beneficial effect on the M. I feel like it is in his hands now, and that is a terrifying prospect, to entrust him with anything, but I don't think I have a choice. I think he is the only one who can save this M now. I know too much. I've learned too much over the past year to keep my head buried in the sand much longer, and you're right, I can't rationalize or compromise anymore, and I have to face everything I've tried to avoid facing for all these years, and then I have to face him.<p>JR, <p>You voiced exactly what I was thinking. I do need to lay it all out for him once and for all because the only hope I see for this M is him finally getting real and laying bare everything, and not only that, but I have to feel in my gut that he has disclosed everything. If I can't get to a point where I feel I know the true story of my life for the past 11 years, then I don't see any hope of a present or future, so I'm just tabling the narcissism speculation for the time being because if the past can't get resolved, then it's kind of a moot point except for how it affects my children, and I can deal with that after I've dealt with the bottom-line M stuff.<p>I think there are two factors that will determine what happens. Assuming what I suspect is true--that the OW was just the latest OW and that there have been others--he is going to have to be convinced that I am convinced of that and will not be dissuaded from that belief, talked out of it, etc., as in the past. Secondly, that will only matter if he truly wants to salvage the M. If he fears D enough and is convinced I am convinced and that disclosure is the only way to avoid D, then maybe he will be able to grasp that there is no benefit to continued deception. If the deception matters more to him than the M, though, then that's that.<p>Firefly,<p>Your situation does sound a lot like mine. I knew pretty early on that I couldn't worry about future As, that I'd just have to go by my feelings and if I even suspected he was on that path again, it would have to be over. Having to face that the future may have already happened, so to speak, in that I'm now convinced that this is not the first A, is really affecting me. By facing the past, I'm seeing the future, and it is pretty grim.<p>Thank you for the comforting words. I hope your situation gets better. I know how hard it is to get your hopes up and then have stuff peter out, as you said.

(((((((Conquerer))))))) C

Conqueror,
Sometimes giving up/letting go/acceptance is part of the process.<p>An extremely difficult part for some of us.<p>You didn't cause this situation. You can't control him. You can't fix him. You can't cure him.<p>It's difficult not to be reactive when someone not only doesn't get it, but as you describe in your other thread, is just plain sneaky-mean as well.<p>I think you need to draw strong boundaries with his verbal zings at you. I used to be the zinger in our marriage, during the early bad times, my H told me he would walk out--literally walk out & drive away--if I used negative, insulting words. He did so more than once. It felt like a pretty brutal learning curve, but I don't treat him that way anymore--EVER. Learning about MB, LBs gave me the next lesson.<p>Those probably aren't dynamics you want to copy, but perhaps something less extreme.<p>Anyway, I am sorry you are so sad. {{{{{{{{{conqueror}}}}}}}}}

Thanks for the hugs, firefly and Lor (loved your pic BTW! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). I'm still pretty messed up and very tired. It feels like I've been trying to build a bridge, and I've run out of materials and I'm at the end of my side of the span suspended over a huge canyon. Like I've been reaching and straining as hard as I can and just can't reach the other side.<p>I dread telling him. I dread dealing with a separation. But I just can't live a lie anymore, and I can't make myself believe he hasn't lied to me for the past 9 years at least. I am definitely on the horns of that two-choice dilemma that Schnarch talks about. The toothpaste is out of the tube. I can't stuff all the suspicions back in. I can't unlearn everything I've learned this past year.<p>Oh, Lor, I have done exactly what you describe your H doing in response to the verbal "zings", but I didn't do it consistently enough, and I didn't confront first or even afterwards--I'd just disappear for an hour or more or sometimes a whole day. But this type of thing seems like a piece of cake compared to dealing with the fact that he's been unfaithful and lying to me about it for at least 9 years and that not one of our children has been born into a faithful M. I feel like I destroyed their lives before they even began. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>What if he does come clean and I actually believe he's told me everything and he still wants to try? Then what? I just never processed that I was in that category of dealing with a serial WS. I never paid attention to advice about that because I just figured I could only handle the one with no further repeats, but facing that THIS one is a repeat is a whole different ball game.<p>I know the rest of the world's viewpoint is to run, not walk, away, but in the MB world, what? I guess Plan B, but I'm sure if he goes so far as to confess such long-standing deception, he'll promise everything under the sun. I don't even know what to require other than what I've already requested and he hasn't provided: By the book step-by-step MB from SAA. But is that enough for a hard-core repeat WS? Should I insist on therapy? Could it be sex addiction and he needs to go to 12-step meetings or a residential program? I just feel lost in a forest I never prepared myself for.<p>Maybe *I* need to get to therapy to get help figuring out what, if anything, can be done by him to salvage the M or if there's any realistic possibility that he can be "cured". But wouldn't the average therapist available to me through insurance (only kind I can afford) tell me there's no way the M is viable? If I COULD afford the Harleys, what would they advise? I know that even before I started facing this, Dr. Harley told me on the radio show that all we were working on so far was the next A. I feel like I'm starting all over again back where I was before the September D-day, only the obstacles are even greater.<p>I'm very confused. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Conqueror,
I don't think I could have hung in and/or survived without counseling. I don't believe my marriage would have recovered without it or recovered as relatively soon, looking at the issues we had to deal with. Certainly faith & MB played big parts as well.<p>Just another avenue to check, the counselor we went to was in a Christian Counselors Ministry, they took donation. I submitted the amount I thought I would be able to pay per session, and it was accepted. It could have been because I was crying in the lobby...but I cried a LOT of the time at that point.

Conquerer, I have some experience w/ the sex addiction/repeat WS stuff if that turns out to be the case. I would be happy to talk with you if you wish to email me or call on the phone. <p> Like any other type of addiction the person has to be willing to change their behavior. There is hope after treatment for SA just like there is hope for recovery from any other type of addiction. An honest therapist who is experienced in this type of behavior can give you a better idea of what to expect. It takes a lot of work tho. Thats what my H is doing now that he has completed treatment. I know there is no guarentee that he will not stray, but my IC says that it would most likely happen in the next few years especially if he stops doing his recovery work. So I will see how it goes. I've already given this M 15 years, I owe it to my kids to give it another shot.<p>In my case I found out about all A's at one time when he confessed them to me (still not sure why, tho he was pretty messed up emotionally at this point). In some way it was easier for me to make the committment to stay in this M and work on it because I was giving him a chance, his first and most likely only chance to fix himself with me as his W. I need to do this right thing because we have 4 children together and they deserve the chance to grow up in a functional intact family. I have to give them that chance for my own sake. I do believe that finding out about A's in dibs and drabs is much more difficult to deal with. Having to go thru the pain of the A would be more than I could bear again. I'm sad for you. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> C

Lor,<p>I could just picture you crying in the lobby. I feel like I'm right back there in that same place where you can't stop crying. Your suggestion about the Christian counseling reminded me of this church I visited that has a lay counseling ministry that was suggested for both my H and I to go to, but H refused to go, so I didn't pursue it.<p>I went to that church on D-day as a matter of fact and fell completely apart into those wracking sobs you cannot stop no matter how hard you try when I asked one of the people who pray with you after the service to pray with me and for me. I probably scared her to death I was such a mess, but she was very nurturing and sweet. Anyway, I should look into that possibility again. Thanks for reminding me of it.<p>Firefly,<p>Thanks for sharing what your situation is like. It's just such a much bigger picture to deal with than just "one mistake". I feel so ill-equipped, but you've given me some clues into it. I'd like to be prepared just in case, though I doubt he will come clean right away, if ever. You are definitely right that it has to be easier getting the whole kit & caboodle all at once rather than this slow torture. Even the fact that I don't have all the info about THIS A has been excruciating, much less others added on to that.<p>Thanks for being a resource for me. I so understand your need to do everything you can to give your children as good a life as possible. Mine are why I even started this journey when I suspected he was unfaithful last year. Mine are very close to the same age range as yours, so I know how agonizing it is to think of their poor little hearts getting broken. I already went through all that with my grown children during my divorce from their father back when they were young like these are, so it has been a major deterrent for me during this process in trying to avoid doing that to another set of children.<p>I guess what I'm going through is normal. I feeling very sad about losing the things I do like about being with him. And I have so much empathy that I'm also in agony feeling the pain I'm thinking he's going to have when I lay it all out for him and admit to him that I still haven't been able to feel that in-love feeling for him in all this time.<p>I can't even look him in the eye, I feel so terrible about it. Before he left today, he left me a passionate note about missing SF, which hasn't happened in several days, and I just cringed when I read it because I feel so bad that even that is not enough or even comfortable for me anymore. I don't even want to do it anymore I feel so alienated from him inside.