Have any of you picked up the new edition of LoveBusters?<p>I had given away my old copy, so I picked a new one up at B&N this weekend. I am so pleased that I did!<p>The book seems to have been totally updated - there's a 6th lovebuster added, and there are questions at the end of each chapter to help you sort through your own lovebusting. Kinda like a moral inventory in the 12 steps!<p>There's also some other new material...Dr. Harley has something pretty strong to say about the destructiveness of masterbation on a marital relationship. I haven't read the whole thing cover to cover so I am sure I missed other things...but its definitely worth the "update" if you have the older edition!

So, BR..don't leave me in suspense..what's the 6th LB?
T

Selfish Demands
Annoying Habits
Angry Outbursts
Disrespectful Judgments
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

Wasn't that an old Outer Limits, starring David McCallum?...<p>...no, wait. That was "The Sixth Finger."

Independant Behavior...is defined how?
T

Twyla:<p>Good question. That one got me too.

Independent Behavior... (?)<p>Hmmm... I have not read the book but I'm going to guess and say that it's probably acting like a single person would, you know, with that "none of your business" and "it's MY life, MY schedule, MY thing, MY money, MY friends, MY work" type of attitude toward your spouse... Maybe(?)<p>Wonder if it's more of the attitude of I do whatever I want to do, you don't tell me what to do, period?<p>I'm going for the attitude behind the behavior because the attitude (way of thinking) is what would drive the behavior...<p>JUUUUSSSSSSSST guessing... <p>Thanks BR for the new info! GREAT! Can't wait to read it for myself! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Here's a synopsis of what's new in the book:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030a_love.html

Did you buy it over the the net? Do they have it in bookstores? Or do you get it from this site? Thanks Pat

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Twyla:
<strong>Independant Behavior...is defined how?
T</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dr. Harley's definition from the book:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"...Independent behavior in marriage - it's the conduct of one spouse that is conceived and executed as if the other spouse did not even exist. It's independent in that it neglects consideration of the interests and feelings of the other spouse."<hr></blockquote>

Like, does this qualify as "independent behaviour"?<p>My H refused until last yr to have a joint bank account - we had 4 major rows about this in the first 5 years of our M - we opened 3 joint accounts, but the only money that ever went into it was mine - he kept his own bank account, which he has had since he was 19 - so on his own bank account, he has built up a lot of credit for good behaviour - currently he has a £1000 overdraft and a Mastercard with a £4000 credit limit. When we had children in our 5th yr of M, I became a SAHM - he wouldn't even give me an allowance for housekeeping - he made me ask for and account for everything I spent and justify what I needed - he said this was necessary because he was self-employed with a free-lance income. Well, I have since learned that this is another symptom of an abusive R.<p>Since last year, he agreed to change this - and now he puts his biggest monthly check into our joint account - but all other "odd jobs" go into his own account - on average he "keeps back" from me about £500 - equal to what he puts into the joint account. I have always known he keeps cash in the house, but recently (when I was snooping) found £500 in cash in his locked drawer, as well as 300 euros (about $300). He is usually a stickler about "extra" money going into our savings account to earn interest. This is £800 sitting in his private little hole earning no interest.<p>He wouldn't ever get me a VISA or MC - (I got an application for one today). He has built up all the credit we have jointly been responsible for in our 14 years of marriage on his own personal VISA. So basically, I'm being cheated out of the credit I have worked at by helping to keep us solvent for the last 14 years. So if I were to get divorced tomorrow, I would have almost no personal credit.<p>How about that for independent behaviour? I thought I was married to someone who loved and respected me and was a decent provider (I didn't care that he wasn't rich) - I always hated and resented the way he treated me with regards to money, but I felt trapped and couldn't change it no matter how hard I tried. i used to tell my friends, well, what can I do? The only thing I could do was leave him over it and I just thought it was one of his creative personality quirks that he picked up from his dad. I was grateful he wasn't like my BIL who once bought a car and brought it home without even consulting my sister. Now I realize I have been letting myself be screwed for 14 years. This is one of the things I am trying to change by trying to put together some kind of career for myself. I have GOT to dig myself out of this hole.<p>More "flying solo" behaviour - keeping your own cellphone with a lock on it so your spouse can't see who you are calling or who is calling you. I call this "locking your partner out" - is that "good" behaviour in a marriage?
I don't think so. Hellooooo? Do these people REALLY want to be married? Sometimes I wonder.<p>Odile

"Independent behavior"<p>So, are the 180's an LB??? <p>THis is something I've often worried about. I believe some 180's are necessary to give the BS strength... so that they don't LB by begging, needing, sobbing, controlling, etc etc etc. But the 180's COULD be perceived as an LB, right?

Another one to remember!<p>Is Thoughtless Decisions missing? Did that become Independent Behavior?<p>I personally through some absolutely weird mindblock CANNOT remember that "disrespectful" is the word that goes with "judgments". I think I missed the arrival of Annoying Habits as well.<p>Where's Selective Memory? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Gosh sorry, I posted this last night and went to bed - didn't realize that I left out the LB name! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for filling everyone in Space!<p>Yes Lor, I think thoughtless decisions are independent behavior.<p>I really really like this rewrite of Lovebusters - I think it's more effective than before.<p>Faith - Divorcebusting has always bothered me - clearly Michelle Weiner Davis has developed methods that work - and I do think that alot of her ideas are valuable - HOWEVER - I do think that the 180s thing is far too easily abused, and yes, I think some 180s could be LBs, but then again, if your LBs are 180'd into EN fulfillments...well...I just prefer Plan A - I think its alot more helpful to a BS on a personal level, whereas 180s, without input or wisdom of others, can just be turned into manipulation.<p>I really REALLY like how the order and way in which he addresses control and abuse in marriage. I can't tell you how many people (I was one of them!) who have showed up on this site, with absolutely no understanding that their OWN behavior, was hurtful. Control is probably a major issues in alot of marriages, and I'd guess that control is probably the one thing that just about everyone does, and no one thinks that they do.<p>Anyway, I can't believe that no one else has picked up on this, how come no one wanted to talk about the new offical Lovebuster? - hey all you longtimers - pay attention out there! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>"Independent behavior"<p>So, are the 180's an LB??? <p>THis is something I've often worried about. I believe some 180's are necessary to give the BS strength... so that they don't LB by begging, needing, sobbing, controlling, etc etc etc. But the 180's COULD be perceived as an LB, right?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
No, no, no; 180 are not LB's they are supposed to be changes, not vengeance! No 180 is "bad" to the WS, and if it is, it's not deliberate.<p>None of the "suggested" 180s are meant to hurt or otherwise harm or insult the WS. They are changes in "expected" behavior. The way you react to things changes, the things you do change, etc.<p>They could be interpreted as an LB, certainly; so we must be careful of that. But they are not meant to be hurtful or otherwise harmful to the WS. They are meant to make them stand up and notice, stop and think, re-think pre-conceived notions, question pre-conceived impressions about the BS.<p>[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

ok... reviewing the 180's list, I suppose most of it falls in line with MB...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Independent behavior - it's the conduct of one spouse that is conceived and executed as if the other spouse did not even exist. It's independent in that it neglects consideration of the interests and feelings of the other spouse."<hr></blockquote><p>from the 180's list that I believe go against Plan A, OR are examples of independent behavior:<p>5. Do not encourage talk about the future
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation), be scarce or short on words.<p>- - - - - - - - - - - - <p>The rest of the list seem like good recommendations to me:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage (questionable!!!)
4. Do not follow him around the house
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
10. Do not spy on spouse
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse &#8211; get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.<p>I'm afraid that SOME BS's take this 180's concept to the extreme, and may become TOO cold, TOO independent. <p>just my opinion.. but brought it up to discuss... not to say that I'm right [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>- - > ahhhh.. Spacey... thanks for revising your reply a lil bit. I feel better, and I better understand your point. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for the band-aid for the lump on my head from your 2x4 [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Hmmm... Do you think perhaps the 180s are suggestions to help certain types of BS's think and focus on other things besides what WS is doing, feeling, thinking, planning, etc... ESPECIALLY since WSs are in such a state of conflict and confusion in the midst of A's?<p>I don't believe doing a 180 means the BS literally stops caring or loving the person--the list never said to stop loving them--just not to say it to them. I think if the BS is concentrating on listening to the WS at all times, the WS will feel that love. Especially WS's who say they have not been heard for however long...<p>Seems like the 180 list just gives a BS a sort of healthy approach to living through the hell of an A, since self-respect, self-assuredness & overall sense of security dwindles in the process.<p>It seems to me that the 180 takes the BS's focus completely off of the affair in the midst of the affair... Some BS's can persevere with their heads held high, but many break down and just want to die, can't eat, can't sleep, lose weight, and can't function. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I was reading one story last night where the BS's WS said the BS was "pathetic" because the BS loved the WS and expressed it!!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe it was this particular WS's way of avoiding guilt KNOWING that the BS loved and wanted them in spite of their A... The ILY's seemed to add to that particular WS's conflicted state of mind... ??? Personally, I think a 180 for this particular BS would be good for that situation... But every case is different. I could see where a 180 would work in some cases and in others, might not. People have to know their own spouses and decide which plan would work best for them...