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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 37
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eli
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I have become a chat/discussion forum junky.
I am finding myself on this site and one other every day. However, I am sitting back as I am completely at a loss.<p>I was introduced to Jackyl on 6/02/02, and Evil Jackyl on 10/4/02, though I've been with Mr. Hyde for almost 10 yrs.<p>He was really angry and aggressive the 1st couple of mths, but in the past mth he has been very caring and trying to give all the support he can. He does seem a little reserve, but he admitted that he was this way because he is in such fear of losing me. He said he now knows how stupid he was to gamble with the only true thing he had in his life.
He also said that when he thinks about it, he just wished he could kill himself for being able to do such things. He thought he could keep it from me, but he couldn't.
He would give anything to be able to turn back time and change it all with what he knows now.<p>For myself, I tried to do the snooping thing, but I could be dishonest. Even to someone who lied to me for the past 3.5 yrs. I ended up telling him what I wanted, and though he did not do it immediately, he has come through in due time.<p>I don't know how to get back to trusting him again, and I am confused as to whether I am hanging around only to get all the details or because I do truely love him.
He holds me every time we are together (half of the week), and he is now making all the changes and plans that I wanted from him before.<p>He says that all those stupid thoughts and ideals he had have completely vanished, as if he had been asleep and now his eyes are wide open.
The urges and idea of thinking about having sex with other people now is not within him.
How do I belive this?<p>I have many warped ideas of ways I want him to prove his love and evotion to me.
For example, I want to confront the main women and for him to say or act out the way he should have when he was in such a situation.
I know the faults lies with him, but I just want to see with my own eyes that he owns up to what he did in front of these OP. For him to say "this is not your fault or problem, but what I did was wrong. I shouldn't have because this is the person I cared and still care for. I regret every moment of it and everything that happened. I did not ebjoy it at all".
The last part is what he actually said. He said that was the most pathetic part of it all. He did not even get what he thought he would, but it became a "habit".<p>Is that possible?
Can serial one-night-standers repeat it even though they got no enjoyment?
I was his first and only and he always thought from his surroundings that it was good to have quite a few sexual partners in life before you settle down.<p>Finally, does anyone know about whores?
If so, can someone PLEASE explain to me why a complete stranger would OFFER him unprotecetd sex?
(btw we are both clear, thank God).

Joined: Mar 2002
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This might be helpful:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Forgiveness
From “After the Affair” – Janis Abrahms Spring, PhD
Learning to forgive p. 238 (Excerpts)<p>If your goal is reconciliation, forgiveness requires restitution. Forgiveness is a two-person process; you can’t forgive those who refuse to acknowledge and redress the harm they’ve caused you-you certainly can’t have a vital, intimate relationship with them.<p>“True forgiveness cannot be granted until the perpetrator has sought and earned it through confession, repentance, and restitution.” - Judith Lewis Herman<p>A partner who wants to be physically and psychologically connected to you must work to win forgiveness through specific concrete behaviors. Unearned forgiveness, like unrequited love, reinforces the assumption that it’s your job alone to stay attached, that your partner doesn’t need to share the burden of recovery. If you have even a shred of self-esteem, you’re likely to find this a dysfunctional notion.<p>“While reconciliation may be a desirable outcome, psychologically, forgiveness has to be earned. To forgive people who do not acknowledge the injury, or even worse, rationalize their injurious behavior as having been deserved (or justified), is to sustain the injury all over again.” Robert Lovinger (Clinical Psychologist) in “Religion and Counseling”<p>The truth is, however, that you, the hurt partner, won’t ever forget how you’ve been deceived, whether you forgive or not. Years later, you’ll still be able to recall the exact moment of the revelation, and all the gory details of the affair. You, the unfaithful one, are likely to want your partner to forgive and forget so that you can move on to a peaceful reconciliation, but you can’t rush the process. If you don’t attend to the damage you’ve caused, your partner probably will. <p>When you forgive, you don’t forget how you’ve been wronged, but you do allow yourself to stop dwelling on it. Your hurtful memories are likely to stay alive, but relegated to a corner of your mind. You continue to see the damage, but only as part of a picture that includes the loving times as well-the ones that remind you why you’ve chosen to stay together. The past may continue to sting, but it’s also likely to teach come important lessons and inspire you to do better.<p>Forgiving, in short, entails conscious forgetting, which Jungian analyst Clarissa Pinkola Estes describes as “refusing to summon up the fiery material…willfully dropping the practice of obsessing…, thereby living in a new landscape, creating anew life and new experiences to think about instead of the old ones.”<p>Unearned forgiveness is pseudo forgiveness. It’s something you grant, not because your partner deserves it, but because you feel pressured to, either by others or by romantic moralistic assumptions about what forgiveness means. Given rashly or prematurely, it buries the pain alive, and robs you and your partner of the chance to confront the lessons of the affair and properly redress each other’s wounds.<p>It is commonly assumed that forgiveness is not just a gift to your partner, but a gift to yourself, in service of your best self, and that it imbues you, the forgiver, with a sense of well-being, of psychological and physical health. By forgiving “you set a prisoner free, but you discover the real prisoner was yourself”.<p>The idea that forgiveness is categorically good for you is popular both with the general public and with professionals, but it hasn’t held up under study. In fact, it has been shown in some cases to be anti-therapeutic, spawning feelings of low self-worth in the person who forgives.
“A too ready tendency to forgive may be a sign that one lacks self-respect, and conveys-emotionally-either that we do not think we have rights or that we do not take our rights very seriously,” writes Jeffrie Murphy in “Forgiveness and resentment”. Murphy goes on to point out that a willingness to be a doormat for others reveals not love or friendship, but what psychiatrist Karen Horney calls “morbid dependency.” My own clinical experience confirms that unearned forgiveness is no cure for intimate wounds; that it merely hides them under a shroud of smiles and pleasantries, and allows them to fester.
You may have been taught by family or religious leaders that forgiveness is a redemptive act-a form of self-sacrifice that good people make to their enemies. By forgiving, you demonstrate your compassion and innocence, and preserve, or create, an image of yourself as a martyr or saint.
Forgiveness by itself, however, is not admirable-unless, of course, you believe that silencing yourself and denying yourself a just solution is admirable. What you consider magnanimity may in fact be nothing but a way of asserting your moral superiority over your partner and freeing yourself from your own contributions to the affair. What you see as self-sacrifice may serve the larger purpose of putting your partner under your control, under a debt of gratitude that can never be fully repaid.<p>The problem with expedient forgiveness-forgiveness granted without any attitudinal or emotional change towards the offender-is that it’s likely over time to exacerbate feelings of depression and grief, and feed an underlying aggression toward your partner. Those who forgive too quickly tend to interact with false or patronizing sweetness, punctuated by sarcasm or overt hostility. The result is a relationship ruled by resentment, petty squabbles, numbness, surface calm, and self-denial- a relationship lacking both in vitality and authenticity.<p>A patient named Pat modeled expedient forgiveness when she put her husband’s affair behind her long before the two of them had examined its meaning and put it to rest. “I know Henry never stopped loving me,” she told me. “I don’t need him to beg for my pardon.” Eight years later, however, though Henry never strayed again, they were still stumbling over trust and intimacy issues.<p>As I’ve said, “making nice” settles nothing. If you want to pave the way for genuine forgiveness, you can’t sweep what happened under the table. You need your partner to understand your pain, feel remorse, apologize, and demonstrate a commitment to rebuilding the relationship. To heal, you need to forgive, but your partner must apply salve to your wounds, first.<p>(Note: I believe the above is exactly what may have happened after WW’s first affair, when we did not address the issues, did not fully understand what had happened and what needed to change, and the mere end of the relationship brought “forgiveness”.)<p>Self-Forgiveness
In addition to forgiving your partner for wronging you, you should consider forgiving yourself for the wrongs you’ve inflicted on your partner, your family, and yourself.
For you, the hurt partner, these wrongs might include:<p>• Being overly naïve, trusting too blindly, ignoring your suspicions about your partner’s infidelity;
• Blaming yourself too harshly for your partner’s betrayal;
• Tolerating or making excuses for your partner’s unacceptable behavior to preserve your relationship;
• Having such poorly developed concepts of self and love that you felt un-entitled to more;
• Hurting and degrading yourself for making unfair comparisons between yourself and the lover;
• Feeling so desperate to win your partner back that you acted in ways that humiliated you-in front of the lover, your family, your friends;
• Losing your sense of self; losing sight of what you value in yourself;
• Putting your kids in the middle by needing them to support you, love you, and take your side against the other parent;
• Being so upset by the affair that you weren’t there for your children;
• Isolating yourself unnecessarily; trying so hard to protect the feelings of your children and parents that you cut yourself off from their support;
• Contributing to your partner’s dissatisfaction at home (for example, by failing to take your partner’s grievances seriously; getting buried in your career or in the needs of your children; being too critical, unavailable, or needy).<p>You, the unfaithful partner, should consider forgiving yourself for:<p>• Feeling so needy, so entitled to get your needs met, that you violated your partner;
• Exposing your partner-the person you love, the parent of your children-to a life-threatening disease.
• Blaming your partner for your dissatisfaction, without realizing how your own misperceptions, misbehavior, and unrealistic expectations compromised your relationship;
• Developing attitudes that justified your deception and minimized the significance of your actions;
• Failing to confront your partner with your essential needs; acting in ways that blocked your partner from satisfying them;
• Having unrealistic ideas about mature love that rendered you incapable of tolerating disenchantments in your relationship;
• Having such poorly developed concepts of self and love that you didn’t know how to create and sustain intimacy, or feel satisfied in a committed relationship;
• Inflicting chaos on your children, family, and friends.<p>No matter how your partner may have contributed to your unhappiness at home, you, the unfaithful partner, are solely responsible for your deception, and need to forgive yourself for the harm you’ve cause by violating your covenant of trust. You may also want to forgive yourself for the hurt you’ve caused your children. This may be an easier task if you can teach them through your own example that two people who love each other can make mistakes, take responsibility for them, and work together to renew their lives together.
It may help you and your partner to forgive yourselves if you learn to accept yourselves as fallible, erring human beings-conditioned, confused, struggling to make the most of a life you neither fully understand nor control. Self-forgiveness doesn’t relieve you of responsibility for your words or actions, but it may release you from self-contempt and from a “crippling sense of badness” that makes you believe “I can’t do better.” With self-forgiveness, you bring a gentle compassion to your understanding of who you are and why you acted the way you did, and reclaim what you most value in yourself.<p>
To “forgive and forget” is just a popular saying. Forgiving and forgetting are two completely different notions, and rarely go together in the real world.
<hr></blockquote><p>And this:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself
Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I’m about to say and take it to heart.
Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner’s insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can’t feel joy because you’re too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.
In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not “give in.” To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you’ve drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.
I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they’re offered the tools, they can’t seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, “Our problems are your fault and you must pay.” As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day observe their parents being “right” but “miserable.” What lessons are they learning about love?
If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn’t be reading this if it didn’t), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.
“All this sounds good,” you tell yourself, “but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?” Good question. You don’t! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen, is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won’t go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.
Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn’t a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn’t easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.
So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind’s eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.
Michelle Weiner-Davis
<hr></blockquote><p>[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>


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