Well, our honeymoon phase has unfortunatly come to an end. The mushy feelings and sparks have been replaced once again by sleep deprevation and stress. We're in desperate need of a vacation. We've had some fun family outings recently, but they just weren't long enough or far enough away I guess. We have plans in September...but until then our work schedule is grueling and I think it has a TON to do with why we are back where we were before all of this other mess began.<p>I am feeling extrememly confident and hopeful now, though, as opposed to in the past...because I KNOW we can fix this. We need to learn new skills and start working together to meet each others needs. First and foremost we need to figure out what those needs are!<p>So where to start? What's the best book to read or conversation to have to get this started? I'm about half way through Passionate Marriage, and I want to get that finished before starting another book. But I know my H won't read this one because it's a bit too deep. I have shared with him the most interesting parts and it's sparked some good conversations. I started filling out the EN questionaire, but I'm not completely clear on what to DO with it once it's filled out. My H would be thrilled if everything could just be written out on a calendar for him to follow...he's great with a template! But I want to pull out some creativity and be surprised for a change!<p>I know it's going to require some schedule changes as well. We're both self employed and he's a farmer...so this time of year he has NO CHOICE but to be gone from sun up to sun down at times. By the time we actually get a rainy day...we've got tons to catch up on at home. And we haven't had ANY alone time (without our son) for months. We know that is a problem as well. It tough...I have no parents, and his parents are not interested in watching their grandchildren. We really need to get away for a weekend...but I just don't see how that can happen. Other people get away for weekends...how do they do it?? I told my H about the 15 hours a week needed to keep the romance alive between a couple...and all we could do was laugh! My husband asked if that 15 hours included sleep time??? Seriously...we don't get 15 hours a month.<p>In desperate need of changes...definatly. So where to start?

I think the last comment you made might have hit the nail on the head. I believe time is the main ingredient for a successful marriage. My wife and I also have problems with this. I have decided that I am going to give up some sleep to talk with my WW. I realy enjoy long intimate (not sex talk but deep feelings and general life talk) conversations with her at night, and I think she does too. I think my WW get about a maximum of 10 hours of one and one time and most of the time it is around 5 or 6. I really can notice the change in our conversation (and hence her feelings for me) when we "kick it up a notch".<p>I think that passion in a marriage is up and down like a rollercoaster ride. Do not get worried about having ups and downs in a marriage. This is actually healthy. It gives each other breathing time to get ready for the next high. I think the passion is much more appreciated when it does fluxuate because you grow to miss it and desire to have it again, and when it does come, it feels great. I guess if passion existed all the time, it would numb the senses.<p>Your husband needs to have cookbook recepiet for your needs this is a normal man problem. If you need to have spontaneity or creativity or surprise, he can skip to page a few pages every once in a while in the recepeit book you give him. I think "Mars and Venus in the Bedroom" does a great job in defining a typical man, including myself, when it comes to romance.<p>Keep your chin up. The passion will come back again. Get your H involved as much as possible in discussions about needs and what specifically you need and what specifically he needs. As specific as how many hugs and kisses a day, how many touches, what turns you on, what turns him on. I hope that this helps. I am sorry to see that you are going through a little lull right now. Please remember that this is perfectly natural and healthy provided each of you try to find the passion again. Ain't romance great!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

You definately aren't alone in not finding enough time to spend together.<p>My H and I don't get 15 hours a month either...and we rarely ever get time away from the kids....and we live with his parents.<p>BUT.....we do find a little time alone as much as we can...even if it's just for 15 minutes to a half hour......not including if we actually get to go to bed at the same time ocassionally.<p>It's been like this pretty much since we started recovery 8 months ago....and we are managing it very well.<p>As for what to do now. My H isn't a reader....actually refuses to read anything....but doesn't mind if I read and then share what I get from it with him. I have to admit though....I haven't read anything except for "Surviving an Affiar". Wouldn't have read that if it wasn't for Judy (aka BigHope).<p>I would suggest making the most of the time that you do have together. Our time is best spent when my H gets home. I get a kiss and a "how was your day" and then he sits next to me and we discuss our days. We then go into the kitchen while he eats his supper....he works a second job right now so doesn't get to eat with us....and we just talk.<p>During this time our daughters are usually outside playing so we at least get a little time together.<p>My H and I came to an agreement that we would set aside some time in one day a week where we would talk about the problems that we each have or things that we needed to talk about in our relationship. This has been working very well with both of us. I used to wait until we went to bed....when we actually got to bed at the same time and used that time to talk....but H was usually too tired to actually listen and respond.<p>Recovery is a bumpy road....and it takes 2....BUT....even if you can't get that 15 hours a week or you don't read all the books....it can work.

My H is just as interested in making things great as I am...so I do have his willingness...and that's a LOT!! He's totally willing to read anything I read...but we BOTH agree that Passionate Marriage is extremely deep...time consuming...etc.. NOT his thing at all. I don't think it's a necessity that he reads it either...so no biggy. I am wondering if any of the books like His needs her needs...might be something that we could read and work together on?<p>The thing about our schedule is that it's FLEXIBLE. Other than certain farming things that HAVE to be done when the timing is right (cultivating corn before it rains etc...) we can both set aside time. We just HAVEN'T!! SHAME ON US!!! Our son goes to daycare 3 days a week...then H has him one day and I the other...and weekends are a mixture of both. All I would have to do is NOT schedule anyone on one of the days he goes to daycare and spend that day with my H....even if HE is working. And it's not like he couldn't get a day off too and we could go do something. See??? WE are our biggest problem...we're all talk and no action. TSK TSK!!!<p>We need to find SOMETHING to do together. Some kind of project that requires both of us, or some kind of fun activity that isn't majorly expensive. Think think think.....<p>Dreamland...our problem goes a bit deeper than just rejuvinating passion...we've got to FIND it in the first place. The OM was the first to have stirred those feelings and thoughts in me...but I DO KNOW that it wasn't HIM so much as the situation. I was depressed and needy, he was generous and giving...we did have plenty of common interests to talk about...and we managed to communicate for hours upon hours over the phone and internet chatting. My H, who had little time for me...also found time to stay up all night long and chat with women...so NEEDLESS TO SAY...our priorites are what's getting the way right now. We CAN make the time...now to do it.<p>This was exactly our pattern in the past...plenty of ideas...but no acting on them. Gotta change that...and NOW before it gets to be a terribly bad habit again.

H4F<p>Have you read Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue?<p>If not, it may be something you can read together and do some of the exercises. <p>My WW and I both have read it and there is some good stuff in there but my opinion was that it was a better book if both people in the relationship were committed to working on the R. <p>We weren't when we read it. <p>E

His Needs Her Needs is a prety good book, IMHO: but it will not solve any of your problems. No book will do that. These kind of decisions come from inside.<p>I had a good long lunch with my friend and we talked quite a bit about my WW specifically interesting to me is his ideas of Passion and Infatuation. I know my wife said that she is afraid that she will not feel for me what she feels for the OM. My friend says that she is right. What she feels now is not passion but infatuation created by the first set of hormones that kicks in for a new relationship. This infatuation will die off. The hard part is replacing the infatuation with the passion. For my wife, I do not believe she ever made the transition between infatuation to passion. Thinking back over our marriage, I probably could count on one hand the number of times I felt this passion. Passion is much deeper and stronger than an infatuation. I have felt this temporarily with my wife after D-day. It was like we first met again. I had so much lust and love for her I thought I was going to explode. What a great rush that was, too bad it only lasted a few weeks. I am still unsure how to create this passion or how to define it, but I will give it my first try. Passion is created by your inner self. Most of the time, it has very little to do with the spouse (such as in my case). It is a frame of mind. It can not be created by simply trying to fill each other's needs because needs can not be filled unless the person is receptive to your efforts. Passion is what fuels the desire to fill someones love bank just like infatuation does for the start of a new relationship. <p>This is why I feel that my WW has difficulties seperating herself from the OM. She says in her mind that she does not really like all that this guy is, but when the infatuation creeps in, it erases all of her thoughts. You see I think that she is not in love with the OM, but in love with the feelings and in love with the fatuation.<p>Well that is a bit of a side bar.<p>The thing I can not get is what made me all of a sudden have Passion for my wife again. At the time I was very big into trying to love my wife unconditionally. I was trying to get to a point where I could love her regardless of what she was currently doing or what she will do. I think this set the stage for the passion. I do think that something she did might have initiated the passion, but I can not pinpoint what that was. I guess this is why I crashed so hard earlier because I was in the middle of this passion frenzy and suddenly it was gone.<p>I just am quite not sure how all of this works, but I think I have a good head start. I am also reading Passionate Marriage. This will be good for me because I am an engineer and I like hearing something deep. I hope the book is as good as the first chapter.<p>[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

What did you do together when you started dating? <p>What things do YOU like to do, and what does HE like to do? You could take turns doing those things with each other. You could also surprise him with outings to do his favorite things (sporting events, fishing, golfing, etc.)<p>What about talking on the phone? That's something H and I did for HOURS when we started dating. about anything and everything. THat's something he says his missed terribly while he was gone. <p>Can you help him with his farm-work?<p>update: I just got a book in "365 ways to Date your Love - A daily guide to Creative Romance" It's the same author of that Kissing book Cali used to talk about. Tomima Edmark<p>Some ideas from the book: make paper airplanes together and have a paper dogfight with them. Dress up as a maid and butler and wait on each other. Read poems to each other. Spend an evening in candlelight - the whole house. Grocery shop together for an elderly friend.<p>(hey... I'm planning for the future! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Dreamland...I understand what you're saying. I'm not really looking to re-inact the same feelings i had with the OM...just in need of bringing more feelings in to our marriage. It was this stagnation of good enough that made the infatuation feel all that much better. We also had a spurt of passionate feelings after we got back together...but you're right...they are short lived once the comfort starts to settle back in.<p>Faith...wellllllllll gee. We didn't date. No, seriously...we didn't. I chased him, I caught him. This obviosly was a problem for us as well. Much like in passionate marriage...I never felt chosen...just pretty much accepted. But I do feel chosen more-so now, because my H CERTAINLY didn't have to let me back in to his life. I know he loves me...we just need to learn how to date NOW.<p>This is kind of funny though. Today is my day off. I had to run an errand in another town and emailed a friend I haven't seen in months to see if she wanted to do lunch with son and I. We made plans for noonish. Son wanted to go out farming with H for a while so I told him I'd come pick son up to take with me and bring him lunch. When I went to pick him up he asked if he could come along! FANTASTIC!! I was so pleased he was willing to take a break and spend some time with us! I made sure I told him so. He responded..."well, I have to spend some time with you if I want to get any *nookie*". He said it humerously and we both laughed.<p>See...last night he was buttering up to me and I was tired and totally not in the mood. I WANT to be in the mood...but I'm just NOT. Because...as has been discussed on other threads...other needs are FAR from being met when we barely see each other. So he, on his own, realized that I need some time with him before I'm in the mood for that!!!<p>So with that door opened I talked a bit about what I wrote here on this thread. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he reads it later. I told him I know we need to spend more quality time together...ALONE...and that a big part of that is just taking the time to DO IT...prioritizing it. I told him that one of the big things I learned about both US and MYSELF when we were apart was that much of what I was looking for in a PARTNER was due to my own laziness. I said I wanted a partner who would go places with me and do things. Well, my husband has never been unwilling...he just doesn't plan things himself. So what I was really looking for was someone else to do the work. LAZY! So I told H that when he's at a point with the farming that we might be able to plan something, I've got some ideas. We'll need to get a sitter that can watch the Bug overnight...but I'm fully prepared to do the work to make sure we DO SOMETHING!! I told H that I would like it if HE took the initiative some time...but that I was certainly willing to do whatever it takes to get us out once in a while.<p>So, we're on our way. I did start reading Relationship Rescue last fall, but set it aside to dig in to Passionate Marriage. I'd heard so many wonderful things about PM that I just HAD to start it. I think H and I could get through RR easily though...so thanks for reminding me I have it!!! I think I'm at a spot in PM where I need to put it aside for a while. It's such a deep read and I just don't have the time to focus on it with a 4 yr old running around. We'll be taking a trip in Sept...11 hour drive one way...so I'll plan on finishing PM then.<p>Thanks for all the thoughts!

What do you do with the needs questionair when you finish filling it out? <p>You take his, and make a plan for meeting his needs, he takes yours and does the same. <p>My W and I date every week. I plan it one week, she does the next. What if I am not good at planning and want her to do it for me? Well, do I want to stay married or not? I make time and plan it. It has been really fun, and I never thought I would say that. I have found that I LIKE pleasing her, ( OK, I admit that she had to teach me how.)
It'is really starting to make a difference. She told me last night she was in love with me again. Nearly 5 months since I found MB. But I was happy already anyway, because since I found MB, I am a changed person, so improvement=happy. <p>Hope you both can make it work for you too. <p>SS

I've looked at my answers to the EN questionaire, and unless there's a different one I've missed...it really doesn't point to WHAT to do. I think we're going to have to puruse the Harley's books to get a better idea of what to do with the information. Seriously...just handing each other the filled out form isn't going to get us anywhere. I think we BOTH need instructions. We are truly pathetic [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What you said gives me even greater hope, though!!! I guess I had somewhat of a fear that this will be the way it will always be...a constant struggle to maintain an instruction manual for each of us. But I think that once we get in practice...it will come more naturally. I also worried that H would look at is as a chore to be done...something to check off a list. But maybe once we see results...we'll BOTH enjoy it! I USED to really enjoy meeting my husbands needs. Unfortunatly I was FAR better at meeting his completely...and terrible at meeting any of my own. Since we've been back together it's been hard to know where to focus. Make sure kid gets enough quality time, make sure work gets done, make sure H gets quality time as well, and still make sure I keep the balance with me in mind as well.<p>No one ever said any of it was easy!!! We'll get there. I think if hubby isn't too tired tonight I'll have him take a look at the EN questionaire and I'll print off some stuff from the MB site that might explain better what to do with it. Then maybe we can take a look at our schedules and get something going for a date. We talked in the past about doing something weekly...but we haven't come close to keeping that up. We've just got to get some skills in this area!!!

hope4,
How about this?<p>The ENQ has this in each section: <p>Explain how your spouse can better meet your need for _____ (affection, recreation, SF, etc)<p>You should list specific things in this section. (Rub my feet when I've had a hard day, send me a love letter every now and then, go to a movie once a week with me, take the trash out every week, consult with me before making purchases over $25, go fishing with me, etc) Whatever the needs are, and whatever would make you feel fulfilled in those areas.<p>Does that help a little? <p>I hope you'll follow up with us and let us know how it goes as you progress! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

LOL..yea, that will probably help...if either of us can actually DEFINE what we want the other to do. I would say I want more "spontanaity...but that's waaaay too vague. I think with some talking we'll think of some things...maybe we can put up a little list to add to as we think of more. I've got TONS of "how to be romantic" books...maybe I'll flip through so we can reference some things. H will probably request more SF and a cleaner house [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Ok...so I'll need to get a maid, LOL!! Actually...think I'll go tackle the laundry right now.

W and I filled it out and spent about 2 hours talking about it. ( we made notes) We went on a Friday afternoon about 4:30 because we figured if we waited too late, we would both be to tired. ( and that stinks) We took a picnic and went to the local park. <p>Discussed ways to meet the needs. ( Faith covered this pretty good.) When you say more spontaneity I believe you mean in part, that you want H to do something without you telling him what to do. ( because many men have a hard time with it, and many wives wish they didn't have to prompt) <p>This can happen, but you have to train him. ( don't groan, it's not becoming to you)
If I had a list of what my W likes to do, (longer and more varied the better, we used the recreational questionnaire from this site for many ideas) ) and a list of where to find out what things on the list are happening ( community events calendar from local paper) then even I can take a few minutes and pick out a movie, or play, or something that she will like. If H is really bad, have him do his planning the same time and day each week, or month. ( every Sunday evening at 7:00 PM or whatever works for you. ) <p>Meeting needs takes practice, but it gets better. I got my wife flowers last week, ( prior to finding MB, she got them less then once a year,) she said," You don't have to keep getting me flowers." It is about once a month now. So it went like this, me -" But you like them don't you?" She blushing -"what women wouldn't"
It is really getting easier. I am much like your H in many ways. It was always - Do job, support family, Do job, support family. No time, No time. But I got to thinking - what good is support if there would be no one around to benefit from it? Why not meet other needs too, not just FSupport. <p>So now, we date weekly, we go on trips much more often than we did before. ( once you own the tent, it doesn't cost much to camp.) <p>We don't look at our schedules and see if we can date. We put the date in every week, and see if there is any time left for anything else. ( I think the kids would rather have us go to every other ball game married, than every single one divorced.) <p>We have 8 kids so it has been a problem. HOWEVER, you have to make it work. I confess that we didn't have the 15 hours in the beginning. OH, HOW COULD WE EVVVEEERRR DO THAT. But we have found that as we have fallen in love, we gravitate to each other, and we are close to 15 hours now, we just can't stay apart, and we don't want to. I think Harley knows what he is talking about here. <p>Both of you will have a hard time letting other stuff go - and doing the date no matter what. There will always be more things to do in every area of your life than time to do it. I think it was Steven Covey in "7 habits of Highly Successful People" that said " No one ever wished on their death bed that they had spent more time at the office." (or the tractor). Since we cannot ever get everything done that we want, we have to decide which things are the most important ones, and put them first. <p>You still need balance, you still need to do some house work, and pay the bills, and all that, but put your marriage up where it belongs and start building it. <p>Whew, that was long, hope it helped. <p>SS

Wow, did it ever! I totally KNOW all this too...just need to get my schedule out and do it. Thing is, I've always felt overwhelmed to do it...because I think I have to do it alone. NO NO NO...we're going to do it TOGETHER!<p>We didn't get to the EN questionaire last night...but we did spend some quality time together. H went to take a bath...normally I join him but I'd already had one earlier...so I sat in the bathroom anyway and painted my toenails [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] We talked and when he got out we got ready for bed [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Had a little US time and then didn't go right off to sleep. Stayed up until 1am talking about this or that. <p>He's working a little late tonight to get all the cultivating done so he can spend the day with me tomorrow! I planned on taking Relationship Rescue and the EN questionaire with, since we have a long drive. Well, somehow his brother got wind of this and has invited himself along. Uh uh...in the past I've always let this slide...been pissed about it later, but just figure what's one more. Well...no way Jose. If H won't tell him no, I will. We need this time ALONE!!!!!!!<p>Thanks soooo much for taking the time to write all that. I'm going to re-read it more thouroughly, but it all makes tons of sense. You hit the nail on the head with spontanity, btw. He did the SAME THING with the flowers. Told him for 10 YEARS that I like them and got them only after a fight (once or twice a year). Now I have them about once a month. AND...I've started buying them for myself too. I LIKE FLOWERS...so why not? I can get a fresh cut vasefull for $5.<p>Anyway..I'm meeting some of hubbies needs tonight by making him one of his favorite meals and getting the house even cleaner than yesterday (and he was pleasently surprised). So off to mash potatoes!!

still seeking,<p>Great ideas!! I need to start doing some of these things again. My wife will not sit down with me and fill out the EN, but I have a good idea what she wants. I have been planning big events now, this is new one for me, about once every four months. I will start getting WW flowers once a month (going to put it in my calender). Our son is getting old (5 months) enough for us to start going out once a week. I think Wed. night is a good night. I am going to start writing these ideas down.<p>Thanks for sharing your ideas.

Our date nights are traded, she does one, I do the other. The one that is in charge can do something they like, or something the other likes. ( once my wife took me out for SF, I like, I like. )Sorry, no details. But, you can see we are really getting into this. <p>It's not fair to ask the other what they want on your date. " Hon, where would you like to eat tonight?" Unless they really want a say. We really enjoy seeing what the other comes up with. <p>Once ( last week actually) I cheated and made 20 cards with restaurant names on them ( OK, one had "stay home and do SF", but it was just a joke) I let her see them all and then shuffled and she had to draw. She picked one of her two favorite places so it was fun. <p>We don't have a lot of money, so we often do things that don't cost much.<p>Picnic at the park. We have about 6 parks around here now, so we do different ones. Once we went to a little oasis in the desert and I set up a table (tablecloth even) and chairs and we had the place all to ourselves. <p>Take a walk.
Drive around and see places we haven't seen in the area. ( hey, things change)
Look at homes for building ideas ( we hope we won't ever build again, but it's fun for both of us) <p>Movies,
Plays
Dance reviews
Eat out ( she always likes this one, no cooking for her.)
ride bikes<p>Window shop at the mall.
Christmas shop for Children. ( we never have time at Christmas, so we can go for a couple of hours, and get some little thing and stash it away.) It comes out of the food budget, we hardly miss it. ( Like I said, we have 8 kids, that's why we don't miss it out of the food budget) <p>Browse the bookstore<p>Read magazines at the library. ( It's hard to hold hands while you read, but we try. ) <p>Shop the furniture store and dream of what we could do if we had the money. <p>Hope, it will take your husband a while. But if he WILL DO IT WHEN IT'S HIS TURN, it will do wonders for both of you. If he won't co-operate, I will thump his head. ( is he big? ) Well, perhaps not, but I would be willing to send a note for him to read.<p>More notes: <p>Sometimes something comes up and we have to skip a week (funerals, for one )
We have substituted lunch out during emergencies ( you CAN afford a picnic lunch, and you could even eat in the tractor, if you have one of those air conditioned cab jobies ) Wonder what H would do if you offered SF in tractor? Now I'm blushing. Someone slap me. <p>Well, I had fun with this one. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope you did also. <p>SS