This is the toughest post I have ever had. I am a BS who has been dealing with this since November 00.
There are times when I think we have made progress, but now is not one of them. My WW and I are living together and have become comfortable to a point. We even shared a few SF Moments, but this new M or whatever it's called has almost no affection and it sure does seem like we have become roommates more than husband and wife. I have tried to provide a safe environment for her and I have Plan A'ed my tail off. I do not think there is any contact now, but I am beginning to doubt that she will ever have any affection for me again.
She seems to be staying not because of me but in spite of me. The last time we discussed anything ( about 3 months ago, she gave me the impression she is with me only because it would disrupt her family and life. She seems to still have a strong need for SF ( she is on the do it herself plan, which I don't think she knows I know)
She has refused my request for SF the last 4 times and seems to jump if I even try to touch her in a non S manner. I have not pressed this issue and I felt that she needs space, but this is destroying my self image and making me feel like I really don't care if this works or not. She does not seem to want to discuss anything concerning the recovery and when we talk I have to bring it up. She carries a note in her appointment book on a post it that she keeps moving to the next month that says. "stop feeling sorry for yourself you lazy lying hypocrite and do something !". I know I am rambling but this is taking a toll on me and last night something minor happened to sum up my feelings. She was napping and asked that I wake her at a certain time. When I went in to wake her she said thanks and the alarm went off ( a safeguard to make sure she got up to go to work) She reached over to turn it off and then realized the sheet had moved. She then quickly reached for the sheet to cover up as if my seeing her in her underwear was inappropriate. I really don't know what to make of this, maybe I am being too sensitive maybe I am just tired, but I just wonder if it's worth it any more and may be I should just tell her I want out. I am at the point where I don't care if I live or die anymore. Don't misunderstand, I'm not suicidal, I just don;t care about anything anymore. I have no one to talk with about this because my friends do not know the situation ( one did but since his mother and bother passed away suddenly I don't want to burden him with it) I went to see a shrink when this first happened but she was worthless. any one want to give me a reason to hang in or pack the M in ? any advise can't hurt, just please do not tell me about counseling or God because I not big on either right now

Mark.. you are going to be ok- right now I am not in a real good mood myself.. so it ishard for me to be positive.. but take caer of you and do things for you- this is the best advice I can give... you have to love yourself right now since your spouse will not... they are looking for reasons for us to be wrong.. since they are SO WRONG><p>hugs, HOney

Mark, I am so sorry. She isn't responding to your plan a'ing? I know it is hard to stay positive. Have you tried to do things that make you happy? Are there things you 2 used to do that would evoke happy times? I know the last thing you want to hear right now is to be patient? Are you seeking any help for yourself? Our first counselor was bad but I found another one that helped. Are you reading books?
Let us know.
You are in my prayers.
Layli

Mark,<p>There is no marriage worth saving if it puts you in a position that you no longer care if you live or die. It is time to face reality. Your wife and her attitude is simply toxic to your life. Imagine spending a future with a woman who respects, loves you and believes in a committment to a marriage. You were a full individual before you met her and will be after she is gone. Nobody should have the power over you that makes you to even think about checking out your life. There is no reason for you to spend the rest of your life with someone who constantly disrespects and humiliates you and your feelings. You need to tell your goddess to move on. Do you really wish to spend the rest of your life feeling this way? I wish you luck.

Bryanp is giving you good advice. It seems that your wife has decided to live in a loveless marriage. If this is the case it would make more sense to divorce and formulate a plan as to how to care for the children. Maybe your wife needs to see that you are ready to move on before she understands that her attitude is breaking up the family.

Mark:<p>I'm going to take a tougher stance than either Bryanp or tomaz here (for a change! sorry you guys!). But I'm going to be tough on you, not her, since YOU'RE the one posting here and it's YOUR LIFE we're talking about, not hers (unless she really wants to take an active roll in it with you).<p>"This is the toughest post I have ever had. I am a BS who has been dealing with this since November 00."<p>If you've been plan A'ing for a year and a half and you've been as down as you seem to be that whole time, you're not doing a good job, frankly. This is where you need GOOD counseling. You certainly need some help, something more potent even than posting to this forum.<p>"There are times when I think we have made progress, but now is not one of them."<p>Again, if it's been this long and you're still in a stalemate, you really haven't made all that much progress.

"My WW and I are living together and have become comfortable to a point. We even shared a few SF Moments, but this new M or whatever it's called has almost no affection and it sure does seem like we have become roommates more than husband and wife."<p>Seems like communication is lacking. It's also okay, and not shameful, to realize that the affection is just not there and move on to DV, but from your tone I wonder if that's really true?<p>"She seems to still have a strong need for SF ( she is on the do it herself plan, which I don't think she knows I know)"<p>Are we talking about the big M (not marriage, either) here?<p>"She has refused my request for SF the last 4 times and seems to jump if I even try to touch her in a non S manner. I have not pressed this issue and I felt that she needs space, but this is destroying my self image and making me feel like I really don't care if this works or not. "<p>Sounds like the way I was behaving before D-day. We had great SF even during her As (because it was primarily an EA), but I couldn't read her mind and simply felt rejected and my self image destroyed whenever she turned me down. Communication, again. It's awkward at first, but if you try to find out whether the other is interested in SF before you pounce, it's a lot more fun when you are, and it's much less painful when she's not.<p>"She carries a note in her appointment book on a post it that she keeps moving to the next month that says. "stop feeling sorry for yourself you lazy lying hypocrite and do something !"."<p>What does this mean? Is she trying to remind herself to get to work on her M, but she's afraid to have an argument with you? Sounds like it. Help her out with some kindness.<p>"I know I am rambling but this is taking a toll on me and last night something minor happened to sum up my feelings. She was napping and asked that I wake her at a certain time. When I went in to wake her she said thanks and the alarm went off ( a safeguard to make sure she got up to go to work) She reached over to turn it off and then realized the sheet had moved. She then quickly reached for the sheet to cover up as if my seeing her in her underwear was inappropriate. I really don't know what to make of this, maybe I am being too sensitive maybe I am just tired, but I just wonder if it's worth it any more and may be I should just tell her I want out."<p>It's hard to tell what she's thinking. My W does stuff like that too. I wouldn't be surprised if she simply doesn't feel very comfortable with you looking at her body when she just woke up. Probably not a big deal, really, unless it's like that ALL the time.

"I am at the point where I don't care if I live or die anymore. Don't misunderstand, I'm not suicidal, I just don;t care about anything anymore."<p>This is pretty serious, even if you don't feel suicidal. It indicates that your plan A is a failure, frankly... Sorry about that, but plan A SHOULD HAVE resulted in a much more self-secure YOU long before now. <p>"I have no one to talk with about this because my friends do not know the situation"<p>Friends are usually ill-equipped to be of much real help, even when they mean well.<p>"I went to see a shrink when this first happened but she was worthless."<p>It's not unusual for people to have to try 3 or 4 different counselors before finding one they can work with. You gave up to easily. Have you considered calling one of the Harleys? From what I've read from people who work with them, they're awesome (and they authored this method you're trying to employ). They're not cheap, but a DV won't be either.

"any one want to give me a reason to hang in or pack the M in ?"<p>Okay, I'll bite. Hang in. Period. Why, you ask? Because you haven't finished your homework. If you blow the M off now, you'll do this again with someone else (unless you remain single). Even if you DV, you've got a helluva lot of work to do on YOU, and you've got to negotiate a DV (and why you need one) with your W. That's only fair to her. Don't keep your feelings bottled up inside. She shouldn't either. TALK TO EACH OTHER.

"any advise can't hurt,"<p>That's good, because...

"just please do not tell me about counseling"<p>GET COUNSELING!<p>"or God because I not big on either right now"<p>As for God? I'm an atheist, but it sounds like you're not. So, I'm going to make Just Learning real proud of me right now and recommend that you come to terms with your belief in God and see whether she ( [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -for my chick friends on this forum!) can help you with your problems. Bottom line: You can't improve your situation by bottling up your frustrations or by putting off getting help with your feelings. <p>So, get counseling and talk to your God. And keep posting!<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: 2long ]</p>

Thanks to everyone for responding. I needed some good advise. Let me try to explain some of the things I said in my ramblings. I do feel better about myself and I have benefited from Plan A. I was having a bad day when I wrote this post. I am in control of my life and when I said I don't care about living or dying, I don't quite know how to explain this, I guess I mean I have no family left. I am an only child and all relatives have passed on. I went through a period about five years ago when I got seriously Ill ( was laid up for a year) and lost the only 3 family members I had within 9 months . Being alone scares me and I think that is what I was saying. I do agree that my WW and I have a communication problem. SF is one of the main problems. She has always avoided talking about it and gave me every excuse she could think of before the A. After D Day she told me that she felt she became a caretaker for me during the illness and had to turn off those feelings and now doesn't know if she can get them back. I rarely pounce on her and try to determine if she is in the mood. I do believe I made her feel like she was disappointing me when she refused, and I think I created an aversion in her. I have told her that and apologized for it. I am all right with out the SF for now if I could determine what she wants to do about our M.<p>2Long: the M I was talking about is what you're thinking and this makes me feel bad because it makes me feel I am the problem for her in this area. She has no problem with SF, she seems to have a problem with me involved. I have spent the majority of the time trying to show her how comfortable things can be after the A, so that she didn't run away. That was my main focus. I know I can go on without her, I just do not know how to get her to talk. I would gladly try counseling with her, but she had problems with that when she was younger and doesn't trust any form of that. I know this is more rambling, but I have to wonder if this is a lost cause. What do you do when someone doesn't seem to want to talk. You can't force them to. I just want some understanding of why she seems to be still in limbo. What are the possible reasons ?

Mark:<p>Hm... I don't know whether figuring out what's going on in her head is nearly as important as what you are thinking/doing. If she's reluctant to get into counseling, you should go yourself. Ask specifically how to deal with these problems with your W, and see what happens. If you are comfortable, particularly with things like not SHOWING that you're feeling rejected when your W isn't interested in SF, then you could become incrementally more attractive to her in that area and that problem may just disappear over time. But communication is the biggest issue here. Without actually communicating, it's very hard to tell whether your spouse loves you or not. How would you know? So, work on trying to break through the communication barrier on your end (again, with advice from a good counselor), and see what happens. <p>I don't think you're quite ready for plan B, because I think you need to know more about what you really want than you do now, and it's hard without knowing what your W is thinking (and you won't know if you can't get her to talk). After you've been through several counseling sessions and if nothing has happened on her end, you may want to go to B or DV, but it just doesn't feel like you're there yet.<p>Take care,

2Long,<p>Please don't misunderstand me, because I do know what I want. I want a loving marriage with a partner who's my best friend I can trust. That's what I thought I had. My needs have not change because of this and I have never been more clear about what I want. The problem is how do you deal with someone who has done something like this to you and herself. I sometimes think she is fence sitting to protect me from her. ( that could be a cope out on her part, but it is something I've heard from her. I have never wavered in my believe that we are great together. I think she knows that but that damn fog and guilt have got her so confused that she thinks she is protecting me from her. How do you convince someone who thinks they are "just a bad person who ruins everything" that her actions are controlled by her, not vice versa. I just don't know what to do about that. I don't want to be in a loveless Marriage, I just want to confront the demons head on, but I do not want to scare her away. You can't make someone get help who doesn't want it, and as for my going, well I think it's not going to help me by my self. I can survive this and move on if I have too, this I know w beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's more that I don't want to give up on my marriage.

Mark:<p>Your W's trying to "protect you from herself" sounds very much like what it feels like my W is doing to me, and for the same reasons. At least in my case, my W is in C with me and by herself, and THINKS she's making a concerted effort. She's just very confused and in the fog still, plus she still has limited email contact with OM.<p>No, I think I understand how you feel. In my case, I have no doubts about my current resolve, but I also know that if the fog doesn't clear enough that we're really communicating and intimate on all levels (we do have great SF, at least, but that's not all to intimacy), I will have to consider plan B. It's just going to be very complicated with my family and financial situations. I guess I hope that she's right and we WILL come through our problems as a couple. And at least I am enthusiastic about the process.<p>Take care,