First, let me say that I believe my W that she is not having an affair, that it is just an incredible string of coincidences.<p>We have been having problems for years. She has been a home maker for most of our marriage, raising our kids. She recently went back to work. I got her a cell phone because she works until midnight in a bad neighborhood 20 miles away. One morning when plugging her phone in on the charger before I went to work, I remembered I had called her after I woke up really late and she was not home. She didn't answer, and called me back later (she was over 2 hours late getting home...not much to do here at 2am). I checked to see what time I called her. For some reason, she erases ALL of her incoming caller ID's (leaving some would be obvious that others were deleted because it leaves a blank space where it was.) So I checked the outbound calls to see when she called me back, which was about 2:30am. She called a guy she has programmed in on her phone at 4:45am. He is a coworker, I found out later that day. When she woke up at noon, she denied calling him until presented with the evidence and to this day claims she does not remember why she called him. She says he is married and has a kid. All the more reason calling him at 4:45am is odd.<p>At some point immediately after that, her mother told her I was getting suspicious. My W's response was, let's see how much he can take. She admits to having said this.<p>When she got the new job, she got her own checking account. She has had a problem with bouncing checks our whole marriage and claims this is a buffer to keep from accidentally spending all the money destined for bills. <p>The last few weeks she has been supposedly working overtime (like 20 hours last week), but won't show me the pay stubs (her paycheck is direct deposited). She did tell me she was going out with a female friend after work last week, didn't come home until after 4am.<p>She said she put in for a schedule change and they would not give it to her, so she asked for her lunch to be cut from an hour to 30mins so she could get off 30 mins earlier to be home sooner. She said they had not approved it. I found her schedule in the car 3 days ago, and it was approved. She still comes home at the normal time. She said the girl who makes the schedules printed it out, but the manager did not approve it, so she still had to work the normal hours. I called to tell her I was coming to eat lunch with her, and she said no, she had already eaten, they had sent her to lunch early. I went anyway and found her walking into the building 30 minutes later while talking on her cell phone when she was not supposed to be on break.<p>She has told her sister and her mother, both seperately that the guy is just shacked up, not married. She used both phrases, not just one: he is shacked up and not married. She denies to me telling them this. Now, I do know her mother is activly trying to destroy our marriage. I don't know if it is because she failed at three of them or because we lived with her for six months and didn't pull our weight on bills or what. Her sister has always been flighty, but provided accurate info that she didn't have to. We moved into a new house a week ago today. That very day she had her sister check rent on another house for her. She claims that she was thinking of leaving me, not for the guy, just because she doesn't love me any more, and had to have a place to go if she did. She left Friday morning after getting off work to go to her father's across the country to decide if she was leaving or not. I know she got most of the way there, I made a reservation for her 900 miles from here and she was there.<p>The day we had it out about her looking for a new place (Wed or Thur) she was going to skip work to go to the beach with her sister, but she would not skip work for me. She was at her sister's house and the guy called her and wanted to pick her up and leave her car at her sister's. She said no because it would be too suspicious. She denies talking to him, even when her sister gives a recount of the entire conversation. The guy aparently lives just a few blocks from her sister, who lives less than a mile from here.<p>She vigorously denies having an affair, but admits telling her sister she hangs out with him, talks on the phone with him, and that he makes her laugh. I have told her this is a fast road to a relationship, even if she is not already in one with him. She told me she would not betray her vows and have an affair she would just leave me. I told her leaving me was a betrayal of our vows and she throws up in my face how all men pick and choose their rules, because when did I ever honor her.<p>As I said, it could very well be all circumstantial, and I believe her. Am I being a fool?

I would not say you are a fool but rather you are in denial. Putting all of these things together at the very least she is in an emotional affair. She constantly lies to you seemingly about everything and she is hanging with this guy and looking for a new place. The probability is overwhelming that she is probably having a physical affair with this guy. It is normal for the betrayed spouse to hope against hope that it may not be true but I suspect down deep you really know the answer. She is probably not telling you the truth because she may feel if the affair does not go anywhere she will need to go back to you so it better if you do not know about the sexual aspects of their relationship.
You both need to get into counseling immediately if there is to be any hope whatsoever. She seems determined to remain in contact with this guy and to continue to lie to you. Hopefully counseling will help. I wish you luck.

mbinla
You are not a fool, But I think this is behavior typical of someone at least contemplating an affair.. or maybe she is just over doing the new found freedom of working, when your a stay at home mom, and then return to work, at times it can seem somewhat of a vacation.

I usually trust my gut insticts. REGUARDLESS of if this is an A or not, it is not the behavior you want your spouse to have and hsould be discussed and ended if it is causing either partner stress.
I would just read alot and you will learn so much, Many people on here have experienced what you are now and can help.
Be strong and dont assume the worst. It may not be as bad as you think.

Hi mbinla,<p>Hm.... sounds like you are on the west coast. Welcome to MB. Also sounds like your W is having an EA and headed towards a PA. <p>What have you read here? First off read the basic concepts section at the top of this page, then find the book surviving an affair. Another book his needs/her needs would be well to check out. <p>Read and then post back to us whether you think this is just all too coincidental or an A in the making. <p>You have just moved to a new place and she wants to move again. This time without you. There are several cases of that on this board. Why I have no clue but I have seen it at least 4 - 6 times. Most of those posters are still here. So read and post back. <p>The best thing for you is to not be in denial. You are not alone in this situation. Many have had stories similar to yours. There are many avenues of support. Posting here is just the beginning. Consider making an appointment with a MC in your area or giving Steve or Jennifer a call (they do phone counseling - costs a pretty penny but worth it). <p>take care,
L.

You need to look at the definition of an affair. An EA or emotional affair can destroy a marriage the same as a PA or physical affair. It is often hard to get the WS to admit that an EA is actually an affair. Plus many EAs progress into PAs -sometimes very quickly, sometimes gradually.<p>You and your W obviously have a lot to work on and work out. Hopefully others here can give you better advise than I could on the first steps to take to do that. <p>It sounds to me like she is playing games, but that doesn't minimize the seriousness of your situation. Good luck to you - you may have a long road ahead of you so be prepared.

mbinla,<p>In my opinion, it's at least an emotional affair. Many people don't even understand the concept - they think there has to be a physical aspect in order to constitute infidelity. My H still denies his EA - even though I've seen email exchanges between him and the OW where they profess their love for each other. <p>Hopefully I'm wrong and it is just a string of coincidences... but to steal someone else's phrase: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck... it's a duck. Don't discount your own gut feelings... I did for a long time and I wish I hadn't.<p>Best of luck to you.<p>[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Jelly Girl ]</p>

Thanks for the comments, and let me add since it's been there twice, she has said she will not go to councilling again. We went a few years ago and he told her she needed to try to have sex with me 3 times a week. Well, we've had it 3 times in the last year and she does not want to hear it again. She had a radical hysterectomy 5 years ago and has had no hormone replacement therapy. She also says sex hurts (she has fibro myalgia and chronic pain disorder). She enjoys it when we do it, but she complains of pain while it is going on.

She is supposed to call me shortly from her dad's (her own decision, she called this morning and got the answering machine, said she would call back). How should I handle it? Just ask her how her day was and leave it at that?

MBinla, <p>If you are in the la basin area, check out this doctor: Vicky Hufnagel and her book: No more hysterectomies. Great book and she is a surgeon in that area. I had her colleague do my surgery almost 10 years ago and then was able to have a child. The doctor said that was his letter of recommendation. Yes those types of illnesses do hurt and can inhibit relations. However, it does not have to stop a M. <p>Now as to how to get you to take care of yourself, for now, bite your tongue (don't make it bleed) and be as nice as possible. Remember it is temporary so you can live through it. <p>L.

that's LA as in Louisiana. The sex, or lack thereof, has been a problem, and I guess is the root of the major problem. When not getting any for so long, I was week and became adicted to porn. She feels that each picture and video was an affair, even though she bought me a subscription to Playboy before our last child was born. <p>She had a very bad upbringing and I truely don't think she ever knew what it was to be loved. I was hurt many times over the course of my young life by girls, and made it a point to treat her differently from the way I showered them with gifts and attention. Once she had proven her self to me, I didn't really relent. I have not been the best husband, and admit it freely, if shamefully. In fact, I only have one friend I have confided in about this, and that is only because he is a long way off and I was able to do it in chat.<p>I know she is at the bottom of the Withdrawal state of mind, and I am trying really hard to be in the intimacy state, but sometimes the buffer between my brain and my mouth is full and overflows. <p>I have completely dropped the porn in all shapes. I make a consious effort to not look at other women at all, even in the face, unless I am talking to them. I figure eventually that will become second nature.<p>I love this girl more than I could ever vocalize. Even to the point I have offered to drop my collection (I collect a certain breed of rare/expensive items) to all but one or 2 pieces to help provide her a better level of comfort (be advised, I run my own business on the side to pay for these acquisitions, I do not take it from my salary.)<p>She truely is the most beautiful girl in the world. I listen to Charlie Pride and realize I never thought it would be me that made her cry.

mbinla,<p>Why not hire a PI and get this whole thing sorted out now before it gets a lot worse. It can and then it is a lot harder to save. That would be my suggestion.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Oh, and one thing I forgot. During the first few years of our marriage, I had a really f'ing stupid habit of comparing her to my ex-gf who introduced us. I have learned (the night she left to go sort it out) that that is playing a part in it. How can I combat something that happened a decade ago? I have not done that in years, and she acknowledges that, yet I have to compete with it. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

mbinla,<p>I'm a FWS and I hate to tell you this, but I think deep down you already know. Your W is having an EMA. I'm not going to voice if I think it's an EA or a PA. But both, in my opinion, are equally as damaging. The lies she is telling you has brought back so many memories of when I was cheating on my H. I'm sure if other WS's read this, they'd admit this could be their story. <p>She's living the life she thought she always wanted to live when she was a 'homemaker'. Only problem is, it's going to come crashing down around her and you have to determine if you are strong enough to handle what is coming your way. Sounds like the lies are already beginning to catch up with her and be prepared to duck and cover. Because if she's the 'typical' WS it's going to come flying your way anytime now. This will be all your fault, if you had done this or not done that I wouldn't have 'had' to do this. Be prepared for some of those lines. It's called DENIAL! I'm not saying she will, I'm just saying be prepared. I'm also not saying all WS do this, but I know I did. I was looking at my H and trying to come up with reasons, that just weren't there, as to why I cheated on him. Sure marriages go through tough spots, you CANNOT stick 2 people with different personalities in a house and say, "Ok, get along 24/7." Only in a perfect world. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But the bottom line is, my H didn't cheat on me, I cheated on him and I had to find out WHY!! Once we figured it out, healing has been a total success. PTL<p>I hope everything works out for you and your W. Please keep everyone posted.<p>RW

It is difficult to see or to believe sitting where you are, but many here have been through this. From what you say, you wife is having an affair. Read Love must be tough by Dobson. It will lay out the lies she will tell you and why. <p>My WW told the same things you are hearing. Leaving you for you, not having an affair, just friends, and about things so long ago you dont remember them - but she holds them against you.<p>Hire a PI if you need to, but be ready for what you may discover.<p>Best of Luck<p>John

I talked to her last night at her dad's. When we got past the events of the day, I asked her if she had made any progress. She said she still had not, but that she did not want to talk about it on the phone. I told her that sounded like she had made a decision. She said she had made a decision about herself. When pressed, she said she decided she was dead inside and did not believe in love anymore, that love was a Big Lie. <p>I told her I didn't agree. I told her she rescued me so many years ago and now I wanted to rescue her. She pointed out that no one had ever rescued her and she did not think it could be done. I told her I didn't think she loved me. She said "I didn't say that". I pointed out she didn't deny it, either.<p>I told her I wanted her to come home to me. She said she didn't know if she could even come home to herself. I asked if she didn't know if she could come home to herself on Sunday, how would she be able to come home to me on Wednesday, her day due back?<p>I told her she was having an affair with the OM whether she believed it or not. He was filling EN that I was not. You talk to him, you do things with him, he makes you laugh. You don't do things with me, we don't talk, and I don't make you laugh. I want to do all those things. She said she wanted to believe me. <p>There's more, but since I didn't record it, it is kind of a jumble. Suffice it to say, and again, this may be denial, but I think she wants to make it work, she is just afraid.<p>I have been a poor husband. I know this. I was addicted to porn. I had internet photos and videos, VHS, and DVD. She said she walked in on me a couple of times when I thought she was asleep, and she turned and left. I have no way to validate that, but it is entirely possible. I have a $30,000 collection of toys (which is about 5 pieces.) We don't even own a house. She has no toys. She did not throw this up to me, this is my own admission. $30k would be a 40% downpayment on the house we live in. I could take her on cruises (we have not been on a real vacation without the kids since our first anniversary.) I could buy her a horse.<p>What I want to know is, though, and from women, since you folks think differently than us guys, is wouldn't this just seem like I am trying to buy her love if we go on a cruise or I take her to a stable to pick out a horse? "Gee, thanks for not leaving me, let me buy you a horse." How can anything I do not seem like a bribe? There is an nice $4k gift I have been planning on buying her since January. Now it will seem like a bribe, even though I told her about it way back then.<p>How can I tell her I'm sorry so she will believe me? I had no idea she even knew about the porn, let alone had caught me. I do think part of the fault is at her feet for not speaking up, but if I hadn't done it, she would not have had to speak up. I have been terribly selfish with the things I have bought and plan on selling them all (they are all on the market as I type this). But I don't want to give her the fruits of 6 years labor for her to leave in 6 months. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Well, she is on the way home, but won't tell me if she is coming back to me or not until she gets home. Wish me luck, and those of you who pray, please do for me.

OK MBinla,<p>Will do as you requested. Please keep us updated. <p>take care,
L.<p>[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

MBINLA,<p>First wanted to say that H and I lived in LA for many years, graduated from college in Monroe, which is where we met. We now live in the Midwest.<p>My perspective here is that of a BS whose H has ignored her ENs for many years now. He was involved in porn, masturbation and OW for much of our marriage. He would indulge his own pursuit of material goods and expect me to work and leave my kids with a sitter so we could pay the bills, his bills.<p>Your W has had her needs unmet for so long... is it any wonder that she is now involved in at least an EA? My H would give me some nice jewelry or whatever for Christmas sometimes but he was downright incapable of giving me what I wanted... a husband who loved me for who I was. <p>I was very tempted by OM but I resisted. You W, especially because of her past and your neglect, may not be as strong. What I am trying to say is she needs much more than a horse or material goods. What a wonderful gift it would be to maybe plan a MB weekend together or for you to go into counselling alone if nothing else. You could tell her that you want to improve youself not just for you but for her. Let her know you have not been a good husband and THAT YOU WANT TO DO RIGHT BY HER and then DO IT!

Bluebird,

I'll not shirk any responsibility for what happened, but she pulled away from me, which is what made me turn to porn. We made love like it was going out of style before her hysterectomy, afterwards, she just plain had no interest. We went to a marriage councilor way back then, he told her she should try for 3 times a week (twice a month was lucky at that point). He pointed out that was what we began with, and my demeanor was what she wanted at that point in our lives. When the sex dried up, my mood changed. Like it or not, men a) think something is wrong when there is no sex, and b) as a fully functioning man, I had physical needs that were not being met. She did not take his advice and will not go to councilling any more because she expects them to tell her our whole problem is we don't have sex and she doesn't want to hear it because she is not going to do it.

For the last 4 years I've had to beg for every uh, how to put this nicely, occasion of my wife masterbating me (~2 times a month) that I have had. If I don't beg, it don't happen. This is a very big issue in my behavior. How am I supposed to feel when I have to BEG my WIFE for sex and then settle for that? I know porn was the wrong answer, but what was I supposed to do? Please tell me, so when we work this out, I will have better choices to make.

Anyone who was following this and is interested, my thread "slipping into dispondency" on the EN board has some really soul baring stuff on it.