My H can go for weeks without having a beer. But if there is any in the house, generally he cannot stop drinking it until it is all gone. Occasionally, if he buys a flat (24 cans) it'll last two days or so but rarely more than that.<p>Because he can go for weeks without it, he says he doesn't have a drinking problem. Yet up until d-day he was even borrowing money off people to buy beer. Since d-day, he's agreed to stop drinking and has had very few beer in the last month or so. (I used to get very angry that he would go every day after work to buy beer when he are struggling to buy food.)<p>Yesterday, I wanted to do something very special for him for Father's day in an attempt to rebuild our M. Included in a fun-filled day of entertainment for the whole family was food and anything you wanted to drink for free from 10am to 6pm. I saved for weeks for this. I told him, since he's had hardly anything to drink since d-day, he was welcome to enjoy himself. I've seen him drink ALOT for years but I've hardly ever seen him drunk. To my surprise, yesterday he got drunk. The whole day he spoke of how this was one of the top 25 days of his life, etc. And yet, by lunch his actions were becoming uncomfortable both to me and our daughter. He passed out in a beach chair and slept for almost 3 hours. I was thankful because if he was sleeping he wasn't drinking. When he woke up, he resumed his drinking till we left.<p>So what I see is he can go for weeks without a beer (misses it occasionally but it doesn't put him in a bad mood or anything). But if it's available, he doesn't stop drinking till it's all gone.<p>When is a person an alcoholic?<p>[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Extremely_confused:
<strong>My H can go for weeks without having a beer. But if there is any in the house, generally he cannot stop drinking it until it is all gone. Occasionally, if he buys a flat (24 cans) it'll last two days or so but rarely more than that.<p>Because he can go for weeks without it, he says he doesn't have a drinking problem. Yet up until d-day he was even borrowing money off people to buy beer. Since d-day, he's agreed to stop drinking and has had very few beer in the last month or so. (I used to get very angry that he would go every day after work to buy beer when he are struggling to buy food.)<p>Yesterday, I wanted to do something very special for him for Father's day in an attempt to rebuild or M. Included in a fun-filled day of entertainment for the whole family was food and anything you wanted to drink for free from 10am to 6pm. I saved for weeks for this. I told him, since he's had hardly anything to drink since d-day, he was welcome to enjoy himself. I've seen him drink ALOT for years but I've hardly ever seen him drunk. To my surprise, yesterday he got drunk. The whole day he spoke of how this was one of the top 25 days of his life, etc. And yet, by lunch his actions were becoming uncomfortable both to me and our daughter. He passed out in a beach chair and slept for almost 3 hours. I was thankful because if he was sleeping he wasn't drinking. When he woke up, he resumed his drinking till we left.<p>So what I see is he can go for weeks without a beer (misses it occasionally but it doesn't put him in a bad mood or anything). But if it's available, he doesn't stop drinking till it's all gone.<p>When is a person an alcoholic?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My husband is a recovering alcoholic. I understand addiction to present when certain conditions are met. Such as:
1. Loss of ability to stop. Loss of control. Once drinking, drinks until substance, money, and/or consciouness are gone.<p>2. Use of substance interfers in relationships, family, job, etc. <p>3. Blackouts occur. (not passed out. Black out, person seems alert and functioning to others, but abuser does not remember period of time).<p>4. Physical deterioration (weight loss/malnutrition, gain/bloating, cavaties, etc)<p>5. Use substance with intent to alter mood consistently.<p>
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but usually, the spouse or significant other plays a major role in enabling the addicted person. One way you may have done that was to reward him by not drinking by offering a reward of free booze and food. Normally, punishment or disappointment then follows, as he did not conform to recreational drinking. Most alcoholics, whatever kind they may be, can not be put into a situation where free flowing alcohol is present and they choose to drink only recreationally. Its all or none.<p>As far as I know, my H has not drank in 6 years, Thank God. My brother in law had a night of drinking until he passed out after having been dry for 5 years. Its like a smoker, once you quit cigarettes, you can't pick back up and smoke just 1. I heard that my Aunt's father was an alcoholic. He drank only on weekends and went to work everyday. So did my husband. They were functional. Addiction is a powerful illness and your husband needs to be treated for it. These days, outpatient treatment is normally the first step. I know how difficult it can be to convince a person that they need help, if they do not see it.<p>Negative consequences to their substance abuse is the way to show them the light. Either family intervention or substance abuse counselor. <p>I had never encountered anyone with an addiction to alcohol until I met my H. I nearly destroyed our marriage and killed my H. I hope that someone with more experience and knowledge will respond to your post.

God Bless.

e-c,<p>In addition to CMiranda's post, I suggest checking into Alanon. You can get info online as well as meetings in your area. Open AA meetings are very informative as well. Many times there are alanons there.<p>Someone doesn't have to drink every day to be an alcoholic. Plus you don't have to hit bottom to be an alcoholic, as they say you can get off the elevator at any floor. There is usually a progression and it gets worse over time.<p>You may want to review posts from BrambleRose, as she obviously works a very good alanon program.<p>Don't ignore it even if your H does. <p> [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,<p>D.

HI, My H is an alcoholic... boy do I relate to your day yesterdday... i've had those days too... days where I just wished he would quit downng the beers- dinners ruined by too much to drink... outings with family... ruined.. <p>My h even drinks at my kids bday parties.. <p>No, he does not drink every day, though most... he is functional alcoholic.. my h makes money easeily at times.. sometimes he does not.. usually if he doesnt have to... ie .. I have money ... or ie.. he has severence package.. etc... why work , if you can drink?<p>sad, sad , sd... used to be that was ok... I liked to party in COLLEGE... too.. but not as a mommy and not forever... no need for fall down drunkeness.. when I have 2 kids to care for... <p>
try alanon- search for the online meeting.. on google or something... or call alaonon and ask for meetings in your city... excellent program.<p>Take care of you, alcoholics take life from us... as we give too much to them typically.<p>anyway.. must go to bed,,.. take caer, HOney

Hi EC,
Bramble rose is the lady you need here. She has invaluable information, she really knows her stuff!
My h has an alchol "problem". A huge, large, big, enormous "problem", by MY definition. Too him he has no problem. (Not that he will admit aloud too very often anyway!)
My h, aged 36 works hard. He functions well. It does not matter how much he has had to drink the night before it is very rare if he cannot go about his business the next day.
"I" say he has a problem because his drinking severely affects us, his family. It affects us when he just "disappears", or when he calls to say he will be home shortly,and arrives home the next day. It affects us when he drinks at home, it affects me when he drives home very drunk, so drunk he will fall out of his car. It affects me when he is nasty when he gets home, and it affects me when he finally goes to sleep and snores, so loud I could scream! It affects me when I have to see him so drunk, and so sorry for himself, and in my eyes so Revolting.
BUT... Bramble Rose helped me too understand that
it is my problem, not his. I cannot do anything about his drinking, I can't control/influence/fix/change... I can't do anything.
My h is such a nice man(in my eyes!) when sober,
he is a slobering pig when drunk (once again, in my eyes) But once again that is MY problem. He does not have one.
My h has managed to control his drinking for a full year, 365 days, and on the 365th day he completley buggered it all up. But he's back to
"no" problem today.(oh, to clarify when I say
control his drinking I meant still drinks every single night, but hadn't gone on an all nighter for a year) As bramble rose will tell you, an alcoholic cannot control there drinking!!<p>I do not like my h when he is drunk, I don't trust him at all when he is drunk, in fact I despise him when he is drunk. But.. I am thankful, thankful that I have the ability to have a drink, or 2 or 3, and stop if I want. I am
thankful I do not have the "need" too drink every
night. I am thankful that I can control myself, I can even go out, have A drink and come home. I am glad that I do not have the inability too stop.
I am glad I don't get in the states he does, I am glad I don't spend a lot of my time feeling embarrassed by myself for myself. I am so glad my kids don't see me like that, and I am glad I don't have to keep drinking till I can no longer get my glass too my mouth. I would be so ashamed of myself if my husband saw me the way I see him when he is drunk!!
I don't really know where I am going with this, it just sort of typed itself out!<p>I am sorry about your fathers day. I have been there many times unfortunately. It is awful to be so excited about something, and have this happen.<p>I wish you luck, and hope bramble rose comes along soon... (hey, hopefully my post will make you feel thankful, that "yours" isn't as bad as "mine!")

I knew this would happen, my main point in my post wouldn't make sense!!! Too clarify: His
drinking is MY problem because I choose to stay with him. I can only change myself, am responsible for myself, that is why it is my problem. Clear as mud??????
Bramble, help.. Need your wise words.

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Bumping for bramble and other wise ones. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi extreme ~<p>I define an alcoholic as someone whose primary relationship is with alcohol.<p>This definition pretty much fits for any addiction. <p>The Harley definition of an alcoholic is pretty simple. If a spouse feels that drinking is a lovebuster, and the other spouse refuses to give it up - ie chooses to selfishly cause pain and hurt rather than give up the activity, then you are dealing with an addiction.<p>I learned in Al-Anon that alcoholism is a self-diagnosed disease. So, deciding that your spouse is an alcoholic really acomplishes very little. <p>What you can do is treat your reaction to his drinking. I do this in my life by practicing the 12 Steps of AA in my own life, rather than trying to fix the alcoholics around me.<p>I have found alot of peace, happiness and serenity by fixing me instead of fixing them [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I highly recommend Al-Anon if you are concerned about your H's drinking.

Thanks for all the great replys.<p>I still have much confusion on our situation and what's what but it's slowly coming to light.<p>He can stop drinking anytime he wants, whenever he wants.<p>He does continue to drink even though we fight about it.<p>He does use it to alter his mood (and be able to sleep) in order to deal with stresses from work.<p>He has lots of blackouts, conscious and functioning but can't remember stuff in the following days. (Not surprisingly much of the memories relating to OW!!! :-) )<p>I absolutely agree that I must fix my reaction to his drinking. I am so worried that if he continues as he has, he will become more and more like the heart-breaking stories some of you have posted here.<p>But you are right. I must figure out how to deal with 'me' when he drinks. I am the only person in this M that I can control. *sigh*

I am an alcoholic with 17 years of sobriety and one of the best definitions of alcoholism I have seen is this:<p>It's not how often or how much, but what HAPPENS when you drink. <p>Most alcoholics are not daily drinkers and that is not the definition of an alcoholic. To drink to enebriation whenever you drink is usually a pretty sure sign, though. Borrowing money for it is another. It goes back to the old saying "one is too much and a hundred is not enough."<p>The key point here is that there is an alcohol problem in your home and you can't fix him. You can only fix yourself and I would also suggest AlAnon meetings.

BrambleRose and others:Thank you for the information. It is good to know that I need to help myself and our daughter deal with my husband's drinking. Neither I nor anyone else can "talk him into" or threaten him into not drinking. It is really starting to affect our daughter, who is 13, so I know we need help.
I will contact AlAnon and see what happens. Thank you.

Ok. I'm more confused than ever.

H and I have discussed this and we agree that he is not an alcoholic but more accurately he has a drinking problem. Beer is his 'crutch' in times of stress. Before D-day he was drinking pretty well daily for years which cost us a significant amount of money. Since business is not going well we are not making ends meet. We have credit card debt coming out of our ears so we have been paying 18% interest yearly on top of the actual cost of the beer. Add to that the heartache of me always worrying about him becoming more and more dependent on alcohol and I have a learned to really dislike him drinking.

Since D-day my H has been making a very strong effort towards recovery of our M and using the POJA before drinking. As such, he ALWAYS asks me before he buys beer. On days when he's not stressed, I can see that he wouldn't be using it as a crutch but I&#8217;m still not comfortable with it. I have concerns that the drinking still could become more and more uncontrollable although he is adamant that it won't. Also, besides the issue of the cost, I have issues around him having hidden alot of his drinking from me over the years as well as the hurt of him not caring about my feelings regarding it in the past. Add to that that I&#8217;ve just recently realized that it's a trigger for me around his 4 year A too because he didn&#8217;t start drinking in earnest until after he started seeing her. Not that she drank much as far as I know but more due to the stress of leading a 'secret life' coupled with the stress from work that he was already feeling. After he stopped seeing her, the drinking dropped off dramatically...granted due to my insistence. But at that time it seemed to become easy for him to do so while in the past I had begged and begged and he wouldn't cut down on it for anything. So for me there is a direct link between alcohol and the OW.

Anyway, here is my confusion.

The other day he asked me if he could have a beer. He knows I would say no everytime if it was up to me but he continues to ask regularly in hopes of getting a yes. This particular time he didn&#8217;t appear to be stressed and I don't want to control him so I did said yes. It was my way of meeting him halfway for the strong effort he&#8217;s been putting into &#8216;us&#8217; the last couple days. A bit to my surprise, it was hard to watch him drink it. In fact it really bothered me. I was extending boundaries past where I am comfortable and I am still very sensitive about how not enforcing my boundaires in the past was in part what allowed him to even have the A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> As he was drinking it, I actually wondered if he was seeing her behind my back again although at the time I didn&#8217;t realize why she was so strongly in my thoughts.

So what's the best way to proceed from here? Beer is a trigger, a source of concern and a sore spot for me. But I don't want to be a controlling wife and I believe it won't be long before he will resent my not enthusiastically agreeing, at least occasionally, to it.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Extreme ~

It seems to me that you have 2 separate but related issues here.

1. You have emotionally connected his actions of drinking with the affair. Therefore it is an affair trigger, not necessarily a booze problem. Triggers like this can come from anything. I've got a formerly wayward husband who used to turn off his cell phone when with the OW. Now, even though he doesn't have contact, and been completely honest - and I have absolutely NO reason to ever think that he is doing something wrong. BUT, when I call his cell phone and it goes right to the voicemail (usually he's just deep in the bowels of walmart or home depot) my stomach complete spasms. I HATE HIS VOICEMAIL. It's not rational - it's a trigger for me though.

2. Your reaction to his drinking. What you describe does sound to me like alcoholism. The thing about alcoholism is cunning, baffling and powerful. It is a progressive disease that ALWAYS gets worse without treatment. Of course it bothers you, your family and your relationship has suffered because of his primary relationship (his drinking). Bills get paid AFTER the booze is purchased, and everything else after that, right?

The first thing you have got to do is get yourself into Al-Anon. You absolutely can not make good solid decisions for yourself and about his drinking until you have gotten at least 6 months of weekly hardcore meetings under your belt.

Now, regarding POJA. He shouldn't be asking for "permission" to drink. You are NOT his mother, what you are doing now is simply a formula for resentment and guilt on both of your parts. You are NOT his keeper. By doing this, you help him avoid responsiblity for his disease, you set yourself up in a superior controlling position, and this will not breed happiness and contentment for either of you.

If you are REALLY doing a POJA regarding his drinking, then YOU are breaking the POJA by agreeing to his drinking when really it bothers you. You were also dishonest about how you felt about it when you agreed. Honesty and the POJA required that you tell your husband upfront what your reaction to his drinking is.

The point of the POJA is that you both do NOTHING until BOTH of you are enthusiastic about the solution. You can not imagine a situation where you are enthusiastic about his drinking...so his drinking is out ... its a lovebuster. But here's the rub. Has he really agreed to POJA this? If he is an alcoholic, he certainly won't do this for long - eventually disease will take over and your POJA will be the first victim.

Not only that, but he is not going to be enthusiastic about not drinking...now you see where the problem with alcoholics and POJA comes in. Your husband is not going to be able to say that he enthusiastically agrees to quit.

And exactly how does one negotiate drinking in a POJA?

Actually, my husband and I do have a POJA regarding his drinking, but it is not an agreement that I would recommend or believe that most people could maintain or be satisfied with. Not only that, but I had to get to a pretty darn solid spot with my Al-Anon program.

Honestly, I think that your best bet right now would be too get yourself into weekly if not daily Al-Anon meetings. Then give Steve Harley a call, tell him about your problems with your husband's drinking and get Steve to help you and your husband negotiate this. If your husband is NOT an alcoholic, there will be some resolution.

I hope this helps even a little bit.

Extremely confused, My H is an alcoholic who started drinking again 3 years ago after almost 10 years of sobriety. He found an OW who uses right along with him with whom he's now living and we are in the process of divorce.

Although my situation is more extreme than yours, the answer is still the same and it has been suggested to you already several times. Go to an Al-Anon meeting.

There is nothing you can do about your H's drinking. He is giving you the illusion of control by asking you for permission to drink. He doesn't have control of his drinking and neither do you. All you have control of is your reaction to his behavior.

In Al-Anon you will find other people struggling with the same confusion that you are. Give it a try.

Extremely confused,

I am not sure what the exact deination is for an alcholic. I do know that I have made the decison to quit drinking due to the fact in affected my family and I had a major black out. Yes, I have been able to walk away from it so far. It has been almost 30 days with out any. I have to say since I hit bottom/breakdwon. I do not feel the need to drink to make myself feel better. So, becasue I used alchol to make me feel better or to numb the pain. I decided I am an alcholic or I was well on my wayt obecoming one. I lived with an alcholic father,s o I thought I would never become a person to depend on alchol, well, I did. No matter what anyone told me I kept on driking my wine. I am thankful for my breakdown. I can see what i did to my family and myself.
I have to say I went to alateen when I was growing up and now I am headed to ADCOA. The program really works. It helps you take care of how you feel and to not be an enable for your h.
I wish you both the best of luck!! Just remember you can not make him stop, he has to want to and usually that takes hitting bottom, which can be a very scarey thing for everyone!!

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge on this issue and for your support.

My H is currently working on a small island so we are stuck here for some time yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

They have no resources such as Alanon here. In fact, resources of any sort (books, etc.) in English are extremely rare. I used to go back and forth between here and home while he stayed here and worked but since I found out about his 4 year A with OW who lives here I'm not about to leave him here alone anymore.

I have surfed the web for a website similar to MB for Alanon but came up empty. I have gone through the Alanon site and read the 12 steps etc. but does anyone know of any type of interactive sites such as MB that I can use as a resource until I get back to civilization?

Extremely ~

You can order Al-Anon literature directly from the website - I highly recommend that you do so.

"How Al-Anon Works" might be a good start.

There are a number of online email Al-Anon meetings, HOWEVER, I want to make sure that you understand that most of those groups are Al-Anon in name only. I've been involved in online Al-Anon for about 3 years, and I can tell you, that face 2 face meetings are far healthier. The online meetings tend to be made up of individuals who don't attend face 2 face, and try to practice the steps in isolation. It becomes quite a sick environment.

ANYWAY, because you have nothing else, you can try some of these groups:

http://www.ola-is.org/olais/email.htm

I recommend Steps2Recovery - it's by far the healthiest group out there, but unfortunately it seems to be sliding into cross talk and sickness lately too.

Anyway, its still better than nothing and might help you get started.