A poll, if you like, on the question of WW's. I'm not sure where i read it , (I think Peggy Vaugn), the suggestion being that women who get involved in A's usually do not return to the M. How many guys, and WW's, think this is true, and if it is what kind of things can give you insight into this happening ? I guess I'm asking , do you think we are doomed.

Right now I feel that things are over. I am preparing to move on.

In my case, that's been true. But I think the reasons will vary and not every case is doomed.<p>However, I think no-fault divorce laws make it easier for a WAW because they don't face the economic consequences. Adultery has no influence on property division, custody, or child support. It may, or may not, have an impact on alimony, but alimony usually ends anyway if WAW remarries. So if WAW has somebody waiting, it often does not cost her much to leave. H and kids bear most of the emotional cost as well.<p>That doesn't explain why WAW would leave or have an affair in the first place, it's only a theory on how our laws enable it.

I am a WW and thing that each case will be different. I WANT to work it out, I have cut off contact with the OM and I actually fear running into him. Last I knew he lived in the same town, but I knew he had issues with his rent, so I am not sure if he's been booted out of his place yet or not. I'm hoping he is not living there as there is a park across the street from his house that I love to take my kids to, but I won't now for fear of running into him.<p>I digress, sorry.... Each situation is different. How many times do we hear the "experts" agree on ANY issue?? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I also think it is probably true the WW are less likely to come back to the marriage. But I do believe there is still hope for us male BSs.<p>I think the main reason for the lower success rate is that a lot of WW are involved in affairs that have an emotional component. This means there was a two step process. First the WW/WAW wife emotionaly withdrew from the marriage. Secondly, they developed a new emotional bond. (I realize this is not the situation in all cases)
For us to be successful both of these situations must be overcome. I also think that we tend to catch the situation at a later point in time when so much damage has been done.<p>I also think our reactions (from a male perspective) hinders the return of our wives. I have seen myself and a lot of other betrayed husbands try too hard to get thier wives back. This ammounts to pursiut or pressure and has the oposite effect than what is desired. In some respects the strategies suggested by Dr. Harley et. al. may need to be adjusted for WWs and WAWs (if only I knew how). <p>This is just my opinion and I plan to continue my efforts to save my marriage until the end. The odds may not be in my favor, but I am unwilling to give up.

Well, I do see how it is possible that the "return rate" for WW's could be lower than that for WH's. There is more likely an emotional component to their A's which makes breaking off harder. But then, I don't know if there are any studies to confirm this. On the other side are WH's who are more likely to have serial A's, but still stick around because the cake tastes too good. I just don't know. Every situation is different because of all the possible elements.<p>Last night my wife did write a NC letter (followed by some pretty hot SF). I chalk it up to a good Plan A coupled with natural death of an 'A'. Since this is only the 5th inning though, I can only declare a qualified success. But if the mountain really is taller when the situation involves a WW, then I may be more successful than I give myself credit for. My wife pointedly said last night that I was calm throughout the ordeal and never raised my voice (well...that's rewriting history a bit, but yes, it's mostly true. Plan A.)<p>See the 'Sad Daddy' threads...his situation was more extreme than mine, yet his WW is finally coming around. There is definitely hope. I also encourage talking with the Harley's.

I am doomed, without question. The emotional aspect of my W's A is definitely a factor [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Best wishes to everyone [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

It's a hard call, really.<p>A friend of mine got Dv a few years ago - had a WW who was mean and nasty, up to and through the finalization of the Dv... then suddenly, a month or so later, called him up in tears, begging, pleading, and willing to do ANYTHING to get him back. By then... he was done. I chalked that one up to the fact that up to the Dv being final, they'd talk regularly - and the topic of "them" would come up again and again. My friend would say things like "once the Dv is final, we're through." It was only after he STOPPED WANTING her, that she started to really defog. That combined with the fact that her and OM (his BF BTW) had been majorly LB'ing each other didn't hurt.<p>I think that if the A dies a natural death, and if the BS has done a good enough Plan A to compel the infidel, anything's possible. I think the real key - and this should be obvious to everyone - is the natural death of the A. I think with some WAW, they may refuse to return to the M, especially if they've developed bad preconceived ideas about independence / freedom / love / fantasy vs. reality. For them, however, their "awakening" will come eventually in the form of future failed relationships, or at very least regret, shame and animosity that could have been avoided.<p>Not sure where my WW will fit in... time will tell.

A very timely topic for me personally.<p>The short answer is that I have given up hope of things working out for us. My WW had a lengthy affair with a married guy from work - even told him that he was the love of her life.<p>We've been separated for 8 months or so now, and though I'm pretty certain the affair is completely over, she hasn't shown any signs at all that she's interested in staying married. I get the impression that she's largely still in denial and is trying to live her life as though none of it ever really happened.<p>On the bright side our kids appear to be doing very well, and I've become a much better father to them. We're handling the co-parenting arrangements better than either of us suspected we were capable of.<p>The lack of real remorse and the total absence of willingness to attempt reconciliation has drained me of any love or respect I felt for her. I've arranged to meet with her tonight to have a relationship discussion for the first time in months. Basically I just want to talk about logistics for a divorce.<p>I tried Plan A, Plan B, MC, talked with Jennifer Harley, and read every book I could get my hands on. I'm actually happier than I have been in quite some time, but I'm ready to end this unhappy chapter in my life and move on to whatever's next.<p>I'm not sure that it pays to attempt to apply a shaky statistical inference to a particular situation, although I understand the temptation to do so.<p>LB

If I stick it out, I think we will be together again and stronger than ever. I am around 98% sure the A will end. (All eventually will). I still believe that I have greater chances of surviving with my WW than the OM, and I believe statistics prove it. <p>I am with onwardandup. If there is a higher case of WW's not coming back it is mainly for two reasons:<p>1. WW tied to OM by emotions and WW withdrawl from H.
2. BS blows up on D-day and can never get over the PA part of the A.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> StillCan'tBelieveIt: Right now I feel that things are over. I am preparing to move on. <hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> onwardandup: I think the main reason for the lower success rate is that a lot of WW are involved in affairs that have an emotional component. This means there was a two step process. First the WW/WAW wife emotionaly withdrew from the marriage. Secondly, they developed a new emotional bond. (I realize this is not the situation in all cases)
For us to be successful both of these situations must be overcome. I also think that we tend to catch the situation at a later point in time when so much damage has been done.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>I, too am 99% sure that my M is over. Been separated for almost 2 months now. W (Supposedly not WW, anymore) filed for Dv 2 weeks ago. Have had no contact since.<p>My WW was a WAW initially. Up to the very day she walked out, I had no idea that we had any severe problems in our M. Oh sure, there were ups and downs from time to time, but nothing that really sticks in my mind.<p>The day she left, she only said that she was having doubts about our M and her feelings. Up until that point, eveything seemed to be OK, we spent time together more than ever (my work hours became better the past 6 months or so), were involved together in several projects with the house and such. Best SF we had in a while (since I was working a LOT less), and "I love yous" flying all over the place.<p>But...Something wasn't right. I just knew it. Not saying I am the brightest person around, but my experience with supervising up to 75 people at once told me this. Coupled with the fact that this was an all of a sudden "bomb", the very next day I went searching for answers.<p>During the first 3 days after she walked out, we still saw each other, was friendly, and still told me she loved me, but just needed some space. She had been stressed lately, and the doctor had changed her BC pills to a different kind than she had taken for the previous 10 years, and I noticed that during her cycles she was obviously more "moody". So, really, I thought it was going to blow over.<p>But during those 3 days, sensing something not kosher, I went digging. Found out what I didn't want to. Yep...an A...confronted her, and she confessed. I haven't heard an "I love you" since. Only time she said "love" was when she told me she loved him, and had for the past 2 years that she was having the A. But that he and her was over, due to him being married also, and after I found out he supposedly "blew her off". He wasn't going to risk his W and D's safety for her.<p>The first 3 or 4 weeks after that were "tense", but not severe. When she walked out, she just had to go a couple hundred yards away to her parents. She would frequently visit, help, etc. Even had conversations one minute about future things, then the next minute she would tell me that she felt she was keeping me hoping when she felt there was none. I was on the world's biggest "yo-yo". We would have discussions time to time about our M, and when asked why she hadn't pursued DV, she always replied that either because I asked her to give it time, or some other reason.<p>Then....called me 3 weeks ago and said she had thought about it, and thought DV was the best thing to do. Of course I disagreed, and told her that was a mistake, and running wasn't going to make it go away. She acknowledged that it may be a mistake, but was the only way she could handle it. Love you, not in love with you, please, please, I want to remain friends and all of that fog. Then last week she called for the first time in over a week and said she had done it. A few days later I was served.<p>So...after all of this rambling, to make a long story short, she never did really appeat during the whole time to even hint on working on the M. Looking back, she was working on how to stay gone and DV, without feeling like she had hurt me.<p>The thing that really gets me is that she could come up with the notion that we could still be good friends. She made it a point to tell me that she had informed everyone that I had nothing to do with it (she didn't say if she had told them the truth or not), had told everybody that I was a very good husband, that she couldn't have asked for a better one, and would ALWAYS do so.<p>Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't figure out her assessment of "OK....You were a good husband.....I have robbed you of the last 2 years of your life.....Betrayed you in every way imaginable...removed myself emotionally from our marriage 2 years ago, and physically, while all the time reaping the benefits of your comfort, protection, very good financial stability that you let me have ANYTHING I wanted, go where I wanted to go, do whatever I wanted to do, defended me even when you knew I was in the wrong in things such as our families matters, SO CAN WE STILL REMAIN GOOD FRIENDS??????"<p>What???? Would you like to run that by me again?<p>I've vented when I didn't want to.....Sorry....<p>Mine is over, I am quite sure. Could be wrong, but the odds of our Dv stopping is "Slim to None", and Slim has just left town......<p>The thing is, I think, is that in order for her to think our M is worth saving, is I have to giver her the feeling that he did. And we all KNOW that ain't gonna happen......<p>
hcii

Im not sure how my situation will turn out, but I believe it is more likely than not, that we'll end up in divorce.<p>Women ususally have affairs for love, men usually have them for sex. This explains why WHs return to the M more often than WWs do.
IMO.

hcii, I know how you feel. I think my WW is staying not because of me but in spite of me. She just does not want to turn her whole world upside down, but I don't think she is emotionally coming back. I cannot get her to discuss anything very often and I always have to bring it up. I think, sometimes, she's just waiting me out. I think she wants me to say I have had it and file. It's going to be a long cold summer followed by a hard winter. I am starting to think the reason I don't file is because I don't want to be alone. You see I have no family ( all passed on) and we live in a large urban area near her family and far away from all of my friends. I am not as close to them as I was. What's better, a life alone or a loveless marriage. That's what I sometime think I am facing and it scares me to death !

Well....I am pretty sure that mine WON'T work out now.<p>I followed advice, and changed the locks after my WW moved out on her own free will on 05/27. I changed the locks because she was still coming and going while I wasn't here. IC said she needed a "reality check". My attorney said there was no problem with it, either.<p>Now..I have just received notice that I have to go to court tomorrow. Changing the locks triggered this in WW. She has filed motions to remove ME from the house, and let her use the residence. Major withdrawal from LB$. All kinds of lies in her pleadings, such as saying residence is non-marital property (hers), but we purchased it AFTER we had been married 8 years. Also says that due to proximity to her parents where she is staying, there are "potiental" confrontations. I am in Plan B, and haven't initiated contact with her in over a month!<p>She has really p*$$ed me off. If this is the true her, I DO NOT WANT HER!<p>hcii

Looks like I am in the minority on this one. It has been one year and one day since my D-day. I have to say that are marriage is the best it has been since our first child was born, almost 15 years ago. I don't want to give the impression that it is perfect, but we have come such a long way. The most important thing is that we have become friends again. There were many years where we just didn't like each other very much.<p>Her A was with a bad boy and it was starting to die when I found out. She knew he was not someone that she wanted to spend her life with. Through therapy we have been able to learn how to communicate. Through communicating we learned that yes, we do still have feelings for each other. So, we are slowly building on that.<p>Sex is still not anywhere where I feel it should be, but starting to make some headway there as well. Patience, patience, and more patience and a strong desire to put your pride aside and focus on the future.<p>Maybe my input will give some of you who think it is a lost cause some hope!

hcii I'm sorry with regards to your latest marital development.<p>Contact your attorney ASAP to counter her charges so that you won't be removed from the house. Ask him if the tables can be turned on her since she was the one that left and maybe getting a restraining order to prevent her from approaching you or the house. Now wouldn't it be a shock to her system if her using the law to harm you, backfired?<p>She is still in denial of all the harm she has caused you with her A and this changing of the locks by you was all she needed to attack you and justify her betrayal to you. As long as she is the way she is, you have little to hope for as far as marital reconciliation.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Contact your attorney ASAP to counter her charges so that you won't be removed from the house. Ask him if the tables can be turned on her since she was the one that left and maybe getting a restraining order to prevent her from approaching you or the house. Now wouldn't it be a shock to her system if her using the law to harm you, backfired?<p>She is still in denial of all the harm she has caused you with her A and this changing of the locks by you was all she needed to attack you and justify her betrayal to you. As long as she is the way she is, you have little to hope for as far as marital reconciliation. <hr></blockquote><p>2Long,<p>That is what I am hoping to achieve. I have spoken with my attorney, and he calls it a crock of s**t.<p>I really think that she is not telling her attorney everything. No competent attorney would issue these motions when there is overwhelming evidence to support the contrary. I mean....the part of our "marital home" being non-marital property.....Sheesh....I have the freaking deed here to me in MY name!!<p>As to the "potential confrontations", since I have offered ABSOLUTELY NO contact in the past month, we are going to argue that she must be sensing some from HER side of the family. How else could she arrive at that conclusion?<p>Even making a motion since my income is more than hers, and since I have family that can offer me a place(hey...ain't that what SHE'S doing?)that I should relinquish the home temporarily to her! SHE WAS THE ONE WHO MOVED OUT!<p>I have paid ALL debts (including hers) since our separation. I have financially maintained the house myself with no financial help from her since our separation.<p>She told me when we first separated, that she was too scared to live here alone. But...being next to the main road, she was afraid if it was deserted, thieves would take what we have. Thas is when we agreed that I would continue to live here in order to protect our property.<p>And man......she asked for the freaking quilts again in her motions. The quilts that MY grandmother hand sewn.<p>What is so strange, though, is that in the motion to remove me from the house, she asked to be able to remove her personal belongings (under the supervision of Law Enforcement, of course). If she intends on moving me out, and her living here, why does she need to remove her belongings?<p>She has had UNRESTRICTED access now for 54 days. The things she "wants", are things she doesn't "want". I know my wife. The only personal belongings here are her old clothes that I KNOW she will not wear, but throw away. If not, she wouldn't have waited this long to get them.<p>I can handle the fog, but not her arrogance. Not her pissy attitude. Not dragging my butt into court frivolously and causing me lost wages. Causing me to lose monthly bonus due to missed day of work.<p>She thinks this a game. Sorry....but Mommy and Daddy can't fix this one for her.<p>As of right now, I never want to see her again. I have mad many times in my 41 years, but nothing like this. I am no longer sitting on MY fence, now. I am standing up. With MY head high.<p>hcii

Sorry about that TMCM in referring to you as 2Long....I have a couple of threads going on here and got confused.....<p>HCII