I have had another epiphany (after talking with my best friend who always seems to be able to confuse the hell out of me and thus provoke thought)about the importance of personality type in our Plan A and Plan B. Plan A and Plan B have been clearly and rigidly defined here at MB. Plan A and Plan B to me are planar (two dimensional). The third dimension and forth dimension (which I will gloss over here because it is mute) are situational and time. The fifth and most complicated (it seems least discussed here at this site mostly because of the complexity) is personality. Personality should play a large role in whether to Plan A or Plan B and how to Plan A and Plan B. <p>One of the tools of a manager, for example, will be to learn what personality type an individual is so that he can get the most out of the employee. He uses his understanding of the employee's personality to tailor his approach to the employee. Similiarily, I believe in relationships we should tailor our actions (such as Plan A and Plan B) to what our spouses personality type dictates. For the employer, this action is quite manipulative, but correctly implemented, the invisible hand rules out. Both the manager and employee benefit. The BS on the other hand should not be manipulative, but should be acting out of a true desire to make their marriage work. It is a process by which we learn to love. <p>Quite often and wrongly I have tailor my Plan A and Plan B based upon how I would like Plan A or when I would want Plan B to start. Instead, I should be focusing on my WW's personality and tailoring my actions to what will create the best environment for her and have the greatest impact.<p>I have searched for personality types and have come across one so similiar to my WW it is scary. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Armed with this information, I can taylor my Plan A or when to Plan B by this added information.<p>I am still as confused as ever, but I think only after I have unconvered all the potential explanations and solutions can I begin to isolate what will work for my very specific case.<p>I am curious if anyone else out there has had similiar thoughts.

I think there is some validity to what you are suggesting. Personality is another factor just like the differences between the sexes (I had something on this to say on the thread about whether Hs think WWs will come back).<p>IMHO each situation has its own unique factors. Plan A and Plan B are generic. They don't work for every situation and each must be adapted to the situation. Knowing how our significant others tend to react (personality) is important to tailering the efforts. I would have said that my WW is a type A person, but that she aviods conflict and gives in without a fight. Unfortunately this assesment is not all true right now as I think some of her patterns have changed.<p>Plan A is about trial and error, without LBing. Plan B may work but is less about trial and error and is based on an assumption that the WS will come out of the fog. I think you are right about continuing to search for the right elements to a Plan A. Certainly some of the things you are doing are right on target. <p>One cautiuon is not to think of this like a work situation. It is more like trying to find the right combination to make a team become greater than the individuals (US soccer team as an example [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ). If you can think back to what made your relationship work as a team in the past you will discover some of the things that could make it work again.

This is a little off topic, not about plan A or B, but understanding personality types is one of the biggest helps I have had in working through our recovery.<p>I had to accept that my H dealt with the A and everything else surrounding it the way he deals with everything and everyone else because of the personality type he is, and not the way I would have dealt with it.<p>Once I started looking at the things that happened in that context, I was able to accept and forgive much more easily<p>BTW, and way off topic, in business terms, it is called the "platinum rule". Instead of the golden rule - treat others as YOU like to be treated, the platinum rule is - treat others as THEY would like to be treated. An example - if you are a waiter (or waitress) in a restaurant do you give the customer a lot of attention or do you leave them alone? You have to figure out what they like. If you as the waiter like a lot of attention, you may treat all your customers that way. I like to be left alone, so if you were my waiter you would be bothering me & not get a big tip because of it, even though you thought you were doing everything right. Is figuring out what someone wants & will respond to manipulation? I don't think so, I think it is just caring enough to learn about them and having good people skills.<p>[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: still his only love ]</p>

dreamland,<p>I guess I am confused by this post. What did you think Harley met when he said you should ascertain your spouses NEEDS and try to meet them? He meant quite simply that everyone is different and the Plan A should be about looking at your flaws as seen by your spouse (yes personality counts here), and to do your best to avoid LB's (again a function of personality), and try to meet their needs (yet again a function of personality).<p>The cool thing is that you have realized that we all often fall into the biggest trap of all. Trying to meet our spouses needs and showing love the way WE would like to have it done rather than how the spouse would like it done.<p>The focus on needs includes the spouses personality in that the personality determines how a spouse orders their priorities and responds to our actions.<p>Glad you have seen this, and hopefully it will help you be more effective.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Onwardandup,<p>Where can I find out information about personality types? What is type A etc.? I have never tried to learn this before.<p>About work, I think there are striking similarities. I do try to make my project teams better than just any one individual. We have team meetings and we work on using individual's strengths to better the team. I believe the same applies here. I think if I knew more about personality types, I could improve my trial by error techniques by learning all about all the facets that make a person work. This trial by error thing could take years without information to guide my trial.
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still his only love,
Well said. Mars and Venus touches on how the gender roles (wow!! yet another dimension I left out) and how we tend to treat the other sex how we would like to be treated.<p>I have not been trained in managing people so I have never heard the terminology "golden rule" and "platinum rule". Thanks for the information. When I manage people and projects at work I realized that I tend to tailor my actions to the individual. When I am at home I am like a different person. I am not sure why I alter myself when I am around my WW. I tend to try to anticipate what she wants and do what I think she wants me to do. It is very strange. It is as if I turn into a worker bee instead of being the head of the household. I do not know why. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I need to work on this.
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Just Learning,<p>I am just trying to learning here. I can tell you are a little confused. This post is exactly to do about the how to of "ascertain your spouses NEEDS and try to meet them." I keep reading all this textbook MB stuff and it makes me sick. I need to hear concrete "How to". I need to get to the bottom of all of this. I do not need gross simplifications of very complicated feelings like Love, and gross simplifications about relationships. Sure that was a great stepping stone to understanding relationships but I need to move on to more complicated and more real world stuff.<p>Plan A (that is the working on meeting her needs part) for my wife makes me look like a "puppy dog" in her eyes. Talking about learning how to meet her needs makes her sick. Her personality makes the typical Plan A approach the wrong approach because it does not match her personality. She is a Gemini through and through.<p>[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

Hi, dreamland!<p>I think learning about personalities is valuable in managing, teaching, relationships, marraiges, parenting, etc. And, yes, can only bring you better understanding in your marriage. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] We all view the world differently, and understanding someone's personality can help you "See" through their eyes a little better.<p>Here's a link to Meyers-briggs tests and information. There's a box at the top you can click on to take the sorter test.<p>http://www.keirsey.com/<p>See if that helps. Here's 2 other personality identification studies I've looked into.<p>The Spirit-COntrolled Temperament, by Tim LaHaye, is a Christian-based book on the 4 basic personalities (he calls them Melancholy, Sanguine, Choleric, and <phooey, can't think of it> [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), their strengths and weaknesses, and how to relate to each other. Tim and his wife, Beverly, actually have several books out on love, marriage, and parenting, some of which focus on the different temperaments. (BTW... I'm a melancholy, and my XH is a Sanguine [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>THe other personality system I've looked at is the DISC system, by Robert Rohm. His web-site has some info, but you have to purchase most of his stuff. His system is also 4 basic types, D, I, S, and C - -> Basically Dominant/Decisive, Inspiring/Irrational, Sweet/Submissive, and Calculating/Cautious.<p>[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

dreamland,<p>You know your response to me suggests several things. One, you are very very young and don't take instruction well. My comments were not general they were very specific. Second, if you really aren't going to use the MB approach, I really don't want to see you posting how it doesn't work. Third, you are not nearly as unique as you think your are, and neither is your W.<p>It is time you quit being short with people who are trying to help you. It won't serve you well at all. Perhaps, you should consider why my posts bother you so. It may be a clue to what is going on in your marriage.<p>You don't have to be weak to meet your W's needs or to find out what they are. It is clear that she will continue to think of you as less of a man as long as her A continues or she is in withdrawal from the A. If and when that phase ends then all of this stuff that she thinks is "weak" will take on a whole other look to it.<p>Good luck and God Bless,<p>JL

Dreamland,
Sorry MB, ie Marriage Builders, makes you sick. Many aspects of it worked for my marriage, not a quick fix, not like a bandaid, but as a process and now a way of life.<p>If you need very concrete things, perhaps Ellen Kriedman's books LIGHT HER FIRE (she gives 51 examples, very concrete, Plan A compatible) and 10 SECOND KISS would work for you. I also found Gary Chapman's THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES to be very helpful in learning how my H shows & receives love.<p>Good luck.

Dreamland,
Is part of your frustration with MB that you keep hearing here that as long as your W is calling, seeing, working with the OM that true recovery is unlikely?

I want to change the direction of this topic back to its original intent. <p>I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS BASHING MB CONCEPTS AND NOBODY WHO POSTS HERE LOOKING FOR HELP SHOULD BE ADMONISHED.<p>The real intent of this thread is to look beyond the simple EN questionaire and information on the site and related books to get to a deeper level. Yes this is what would happen if we were all counseling with the Harleys but that is not possible for everyone. Personality and ENs not listed on this site can be very important issues in understanding ones spouse and devising a plan A. MB concepts are not bad (if fact they have been invaluable to me), but they are general and each of us needs to get to the next level in understanding our realtionships.<p>Dreamland - <p>I would also advise you that looking for the silver bullet is not the way to go. We all would like to find the one thing that makes sense of this all and provides clear direction on how to solve the problems. Life is seldom so easy. I could provide volumes of personality research from my work but it hasn't done me any good. <p>Trial and error may seem a poor way of approaching a plan A, but it makes sense. First of all you already know quite a bit so you are not starting without information. Secondly, the information gleaned from unsuccessful changes can be just as valuable as the successes.<p>Sit down take a deep breath and work with what you already know. When you stop trying so hard to get all the answers I bet you will be able to do a better plan A.

Plan A is simple..be the very best person you can be...someone you would respect and like to be around. No need to be a doormat, no need to be a "yes man" no need to do something that is demeaning or uncomfortable. Just try to be the person you've always wanted to be. <p>I think people want to jump right into meeting their partner's emotional needs because of the devastation.."hey, this is a way to get him back..maybe then I'll have some control here!" I know that's how I felt at my first reading. Then what happens..They're still so deep in the A or the fog and they don't even notice..and we slink back to our corners and lick our wounds and try to find something else that just might break through the incredibly painful wall they've surrounded themselves with...and we blame outselves..we failed. Just what we need when our self esteem is the lowest it's ever been..our own foot kicking our butt!<p>No matter what the personality type, no matter what the situation, I think you have to go back further..and build a better foundation. That's simple..read the Love Buster's and get them OUT of your life. You can meet every need in the world and if you are still love busting..it ain't going to do a bit of good. For you or them. Getting rid of the LB's in your life make you a "safe" person to confide in, an understanding person, a really good friend...the best you can be. If you're a WS and you know your BS won't slam you every time you talk or interact..you're a lot more willing to spend some time with them. It's ok to cry, it's ok to be angry..it all comes down to expressing your emotions freely and yet not at the cost of demeaning someone else.<p>And you don't have to meet every emotional need..you meet the one's you feel comfortable with the best you can.<p>When I read about people having sex with their partner when they're trying to "win them back" but really don't want to..I want to scream "quit demeaning yourself..don't sell yourself short!" Instead, a smile and a "thanks for the compliment, but I really would prefer to wait until there is no triangle again" or even "I would really like to, but would feel more comfortable when we have reconciled" is perfectly acceptable. It's a matter of respect..self respect.<p>Be the best you can be.<p>Just my opinion.
T

And Plan B is pretty easy too. When you simply feel you have very little love left for your partner..you withdraw.
T

Maybe I am at the pit of dispair and I am grasping at straws. I know exactly why I am so short with people now, even those who may be sincerely trying to help. I am living in a nightmare. I keep my sanity by ignoring the chaos of what lies beneath the surface. Every once in a while for no aparent reason a word or a phrase may unleash the insecurities and the pent up feelings inside and I lash out in total defense of my existance. I guess this is fight or flight and I never run.<p>I believe in the concepts at MB, I believe they work, and I am in a strict Plan A mode. I am desperate, and I am trying to find a way that will make Plan A work for me. Part of my frustration her is the search for new information for the key that opens the door to my WW's heart. Since my WW is working with the OM, I do get upset at the rigid notion that recovery is not possible without total NC. You see this is a lose-lose situation. I will never recommend that my WW quit her job because my number one priority right now is to protect my wife through all of this and even protect her from herself. If she quits, she will not have the energy left (given her current condition) to find another job. She will be totally giving up her career. I know my wife and I know what she needs for her well being and right now she needs her job.<p>I am a structural engineer and I need to understand this in a very technical and philisophical way all of this. This I am seing is impossible task. I guess I am crazy to think I can manufacturer a silver bullet to kill off the demons that possess me and my wife. My demon is my one mindedness. In the personal and emotional sense, I tend to put everything on hold and concentrate all of my efforts on the most important thing at hand. I need to channel my multi-tasking skills I use at work into my personal life so that I can regain a balance in my life despite these life challenges. My WW's demon is also herself. Her happiness and feelings for OM have nothing to do with me or OM, but all to do with herself. So I guess I am searching for two of these silver bullets.<p>Unfortunately, I think I am realizing that my intense need to learn about all of this is my way of trying to make my marriage work. If I give up trying to learn, I will feel like I am giving up on my marriage. I have no other hobbies right now, (I am working on kissing frogs), so learning fits neatly in my life and fills at least some of my needs (so many are not being met).<p>Luckily for me, I am very very good at avoiding love busters. I am a very even tempered person and I try to please everyone. I have not even raised my voice or even was angry at the OM or WW since D-day. That is why one of the posts in here is so hurtfull and totally wiped me out for an afternoon because someone did not approve of me. I know I need to work on this, but I am a giver, and in my giving I have lost my differentiation. I am no longer unique. I become what others want me to become. I am changing this now and reading "Passionate Marriage". I am standing on solid ground for what I believe in my heart to be true and am kissing frogs to find out what it is I like in life.<p>My wife has opened up to me and told me just about everything about the A and is very honest with her feelings. I am thankful for this. Even though some of her feelings where a shock to me, I prefer to know exactly where I stand. <p>I believe we are becoming best friends again. I do not think my WW can begin to have feelings for me again until the OM is out of her mind. She is still sitting on the fence post and waiting for something (I am not sure what that something is and maybe she does not know either.)<p>I guess this post was just my soul crying out for help even though my mind was not allowing it. I am trying to find a needle in a haystack, and I am unsure if there is even a needle in there. I will learn about personalities anyway. I know in my heart what they are in a vague sense, but I would like to put a name to the face. It will help me in the long run (maybe).

DL;
Don't be so hard on yourself. I know where you are coming from. I KNOW. I was there just a few weeks back, and in many ways I'm still there.<p>I'm a project manager, and strongly suspect that, like you, would like a pre-defined, step-by-step plan with contingencies, risk mitigation, etc. But unfortunately, in this field of work, that is simply not possible.<p>Keep working, learning, testing, probing. You will find a semblance of a plan begin to emerge, something you can deal with better, as I have done.<p>I'll tell you this, though; be prepared for sudden and rapid adjustments; you WILL need to make them, as it is almost impossible to predict the reaction to your action. I found that the best way to deal with this is to have a general direction you want to head in clear, and have very small steps planned out for the next few days, maybe a couple of weeks. Test, evaluate, adjust...always keeping the final goal/direction in mind. Ask yourself "how does this contribute to the end goal?", if it does, great. If it doesn't, change and try again.<p>But the only certainty you will have all along is uncertainty. Take only baby steps; take the goals you have and break them down into 10-20 small steps, probe, measure, adjust, and go to the next one. You will find a lot more successes that way. Be prepared for defeats and losses, get up, dust yourself off, and try again.

Hi, dreamland!<p>I like the way Twyla worded it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think personalities are VERY interesting. I mean, communication is great, the EN questionnaire is great, but sometimes we need a little help actually identifying things about ourselves in order to communicate and understand better. (You can see on dani's new post something she understands a little better now.)<p>XH and I knew all about that stuff. We understood each other's personalities pretty well. But it wasn't enough. We were STILL not communicating about WHAT we actually needed from each other - especially as needs changed over time. I guess we became complacent, and perhaps TOO confident that we understood each other.<p>One other thought I just had. Be careful that you are not playing Mr. Engineer with your W. SHe probably resists, and maybe even resents you "trying to analyze her and figure her out". Even if it's something you keep to yourself, in order to learn how to love her better, we are often fooled if we think we've got someone "figured out". I think that's what I was saying above, when I said my XH and I THOUGHT we understood each other.<p>So, just keep it all in perspective. Keep studying... I know you need answers... I can understand that (as Spacey already said as well)... but listen to the good people here who try to simplify it for us.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You're doing fine. Hang in there!!!

Dreamland,
Maybe you've already heard me, but I for one don't have the rigid notion that co-workers never end their affairs--my H--or the OW--did end it.<p>But, although my H & I are not unique in reconciling after a long co-worker affair, it is difficult and a long process and the contact is now uncomfortable for him and I doubt I will ever be blase about it. And, I think I've mentioned the Xmas & other work socials/parties where I get to see her?<p>And I can't imply it isn't difficult all the way around when the work relationship continues after the A, and I don't think anyone who has gone through the co-worker affair to recovery would say much different.<p>I also understand that isn't something you can control, but even if you can't control it, being aware of it is important.<p>I was serious about Kreidman & Chapman's books, they helped me with Plan A, but unlike you, neither patience nor even-temperedness were a solid part of my personality or my first response. I had to learn.<p>I am talking to you from 2-4 years down the road from you, a success, I have a loving, faithful husband, a good, still improving marriage. I have what I consider the optimal outcome for our situation.<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is that many times, you don't have to break the ground all over again, you didn't correlate how personality and ENs go together. It's no biggie. JL is one of the most helpful, thoughtful people around here, and someone whose pointers I would take, probably have taken in my own troubled times.<p>I've had a lot of Aha! moments that other people would think were merely common sense--not that that is what happened here to you, but what happened to me. If you were to read my posts from 99 & 2000, you'd find a lot of heart-wrenching searching. A lot of dear MBers trying to readjust my course.<p>I've read hundreds of books on or near the topic of relationships in the past 5 years (the bookstore owner). Some were excellent, some had one gleaming nugget, some were crap, some were deeply disturbing.<p>If you find something that speaks to you, follow it for a time.<p>Saying you are sick of MB on the MB site is going to cause some flares & flames. Always. But you are free to say it, just don't expect much postitve feedback for saying from those of us who have found within it those golden nuggets.

Dreamland,
and I am trying to find a way that will make Plan A work for me. <p>Simplify..simplify...be the best person you can be. There is only one of you on this earth..you are unique, special, and capable.<p>Don't measure "success" on other's reactions..measure it on your own. <p>Keep it simple.
T

Went on the Keirsey site a few minutes ago, I am a Guardian (I guess) and my WW (the best I can tell) is an Idealist. (thanks faith1 - now to find out how I can use this information).<p>Maybe many of you out there already knew about personality types, but for me the light bulb that went off in my head had little to do just with personality playing a how-to role, but has to do with using knowledge about personality types to cater the Plan A to the individual and even use the information to try to predict behavior. I had never thought of learning about personalities types to try to do a better Plan A. I found out about how time and situation and even gender types were important but never thought about trying to apply personality types to the mix.<p>I do not feel that a person's personality types has anything to do with figuring which of the 10 basic EN's someone has. Personality types only aid in how to provide needs effectively. Boy that sounds dumb, but let me explain what I mean. My WW's number one need is conversation. Any of the personality types can have conversation as a number one need. How to converse with my wife depends upon her personality type (as well as other factors).<p>Great discussion. I appreciate everyone's help. I do not know how this will change what I am doing in Plan A, but I might as well learn about the personality types anyway.

Twyla,<p>Good advice. I wish I could just simplify all of this, but I have always tended to dive in the mess of the most complicated stuff in order to figure out why it works. This is how I made it through school. I learned how everything worked. I just wish I could put this all down, but I keep thinking that if stop trying to learn how this works, I am giving up on the marriage. <p>Like a typical giver (I think), I desire to have approval from others. I always tend to way the response of others as validation of my success or failure. I wish I knew how to stop this. I think I will do as my best friend said "quit trying so hard and be yourself, the self you were before you were married".

OK, I am getting a Ph.D. (not one yet) and my field of study is related to personality and individual differences (Management/Organizational Behavior). <p>From my research and understanding of the exisiting literature on the subject I will offer the following insight on personality.<p>Within the Psychology literature there is a current consensus on the following five personality attributes.<p>Extraversion - being socialble, gregarious, assertive, talkative, and active<p>Emotional Stability - being anxious, depressed, angry, embarrassed, emotional, worried, and insecure<p>Agreeableness - being curious, flexible, trusting, good-natured, cooperative, forgiving, soft-hearted, and tolerant<p>Conscientiousness - dependablity (i.e., being careful, thorough, responsible, organized and planful), as well as hardworking, achievment oriented, and persevering<p>Openness to experience - being imaginative, cultured, curiou, original, broad-minded, intelligent, and artistically secure<p>There are many tools that attempt to identify and classify people based on personality types. The Myers-Briggs type indicator is the most well know but has some scientific shortcomings (as all classification methods do).<p>If you consider the five attributes I've listed above and think of each as a scale from -10 to 10 then it is easy to see how the possible combinations are overwhelming (the old psychology literature had more attributes).<p>Another problem is that personality is generally considered to be a trait (long lasting and stable), but science now recognizes that personality can change due to a shock or exhibit a slow drift with maturity.<p>So what is my point....I find personality to be a very interesting subject, but it is still rife with uncertainty and no precise science. Perhaps if you think about yourself (and WW) along the dimensions I've listed you can gain insight into some of your actions. The caution I ofer is to use the information with a grain of salt. Unlike the hard sciences, psychology is soft and the accepted "knowledge" is probalisitc and fails to capture all of the variance in human behavior. A correlation above .3 could be big news in the social sciences but not something I would wager on.