Just surveying - have you talked to a priest about your relationship and what did they say? I'll post more later about my conversations with the priest who married us and another priest friend.<p>Llama

Catholic here - part-time really!
My H is not Catholic, in fact he really has no Faith to speak of.
I did not go to my Priest for help.

llama-<p>My experiences talking with priests haven't been too good. The first priest I spoke to was from a church other than my own. It was Day two after D-day #1 and he was very encouraging and supportive of me. One of the things that I told him was that I felt my WW and I needed to spend more time together but that people were always asking her to volunteer her time and do more and my W didn't know how to say no. For the next several months my W increased the number of activities she was participating in outside of the home and she was spending more and more time on the telephone. The same priest that I had spoken to about this problem was one of those calling her and asking her for her help. I couldn't believe he was doing this after our conversation.<p>I also talked with a second priest (again, not from my own church) about 5 months after d-day #1. He knew my W through the work she was doing and he knew of the people that she worked with that covered up her A. His response to me was, "Let her go. She's not going to change. Just let her go."<p>Needless to say, I have not had good experiences talking with priests and attempting to get some counseling and support from them. I think that there are much better counselors out there than priests. They can pray with you and help you with your faith struggles and even advise you who might be a good counselor but I wouldn't depend on one to help resolve a marital crisis. BTW, the men that my W became involved with were active in their Catholic communities and my W and the OM often used church services and other functions as an excuse to be together.<p>HoFS

This seems so surreal as I write it. I am Catholic, my H is not. I don't attend church as we are currently inbetween priestsn and I am currently questioning the Catholic Faith. The last one, whom I really liked, left the priesthood after having an affair with a married parishioner. How nice eh?

My WH and I are both devout Catholics and we have both turned to priests for help. I don't have anything bad to say about the help and support offered to me when I first found out that my H had fallen in love with other women.
I think a lot of it was very valuable and helped me a lot. I could and will go into details if you like. But over time, it became clear that my H was not capable of either hearing or implementing the advice he received from the priests whose authority he professed to respect. This is no reflection on the competence of the priests, but a reflection of my H's deep problems. <p>Now my H is in individual counselling, (which he is not at present sharing with me), and he insisted on going to a Christian counselling service - his faith is fundamental to him, but he likes to look at the part that says "all sins are forgiven" and in the past has told me I just have to be "tolerant" - in other words, he hasn't yet got it that repentence is an integral part of forgiveness. Hopefully this will come.<p>I live in the UK, and we have a unique situation here - a number of Anglican priests "moved over" to our side when the Anglicans voted to accept women priests. A few of these ex-Anglicans are married and Rome accepted each application on its individual merit. Our parish has one such priest, and it is him I went to after D-day no. 2 - he is about 70, very warm, with lots of experience in marriage counselling. He was helpful to me as far as he could be - my H is still not willing to go to joint M counselling. I did not consider going to my parish priest - he is quite cold and I felt he wouldn't understand. <p>I went to confession once with a visiting African priest whom I have great regard for - what a great preacher! - and he told me I should not let any of my actions with regard to my H be motivated by anger, but search my heart and make sure that my actions were motivated by charity - he said that God usually does not intervene, but allows us to exercise our free will, and my H must choose for himself how he wants to conduct his life. That was helpful.<p>A year ago, after D-day no. 1, I went to the Franciscans in our town - I always find monks to be quite generous in the help they try to give - I was definitely in extremis - going into physical shock, my brother had just died - and the brother I spoke to saw me during Mass while someone else took care of my kids, then saw me every day for the next 4 days and managed to get my H into a joint session, the upshot of that being that my H said he was unhappily married, that I dragged him down and he had to "ring-fence" himself against me emotionally. Afterwards he said he didn't want to have to do that again - the brother had given us the number of his Superior, whom I rang, and my H and I both went to see him - since it was clear my H was not going to talk any more, the Superior did all the talking, and he had a lot of worthwhile things to say - I said, trying to be generous, that I was learning that my H did not belong to me, he belonged to Christ. The Superior said I was wrong, that my H did belong to me, because he had given himself to me when he stood at the altar - that WAS what he had done, and he could not take himself and give himself to someone else, because that was tantamount to stealing from me - he could not give away that which no longer belonged to him, and he no longer belonged to himself, because he had given himself to me - and vice versa - nor could I give myself away to another - <p>None of this seemed to make any impression on my H - six months later he was falling in love with OW2. My H's justification is that he has not had sex with them, so it is not being unfaithful - he calls it simply "the joy of friendship" - ("I kiss all your blonde parts!" Is that the joy of friendship?!!) I do have some hope that now that we are both in IC, we have a chance of healing our M - I don't think that a few talks with our parish priest would ever have been enough for us - but to their credit, they WERE there when I needed them.<p>All this just shows us that being Catholic makes not a lot of difference - being Catholic does not change basic human nature and you can be just as heavily in the fog even if you're Catholic.<p>The difference is, I think, that maybe a Catholic like my H (who until now has been rigidly devout - that's why I TRUSTED him so MUCH) deep down KNOWS what he is doing is wrong, and is not going to walk out the door lightly - I think if my H were not Catholic, he would be physically involved with OW and much more likely to leave me. So maybe being Catholic gives us half a chance of staying together.<p>A big however, though, is that I feel trapped - I think I would have walked out 6 months ago after D-day no 2, if i could have afforded it, and IF I wasn't held back by my belief - I feel he has used me and trampled all over my belief in lifetime marriage - it makes it easy for him to have his emotional cake and eat it too - knowing I believe that. Still - the Church does annul marriages - this is it's way of dealing with abusive marriages, and I know that I can always go that route if things get intolerable.<p>Odile

My WH and I are both devout Catholics and we have both turned to priests for help. I don't have anything bad to say about the help and support offered to me when I first found out that my H had fallen in love with other women.
I think a lot of it was very valuable and helped me a lot. I could and will go into details if you like. But over time, it became clear that my H was not capable of either hearing or implementing the advice he received from the priests whose authority he professed to respect. This is no reflection on the competence of the priests, but a reflection of my H's deep problems. <p>Now my H is in individual counselling, (which he is not at present sharing with me), and he insisted on going to a Christian counselling service - his faith is fundamental to him, but he likes to look at the part that says "all sins are forgiven" and in the past has told me I just have to be "tolerant" - in other words, he hasn't yet got it that repentence is an integral part of forgiveness. Hopefully this will come.<p>I live in the UK, and we have a unique situation here - a number of Anglican priests "moved over" to our side when the Anglicans voted to accept women priests. A few of these ex-Anglicans are married and Rome accepted each application on its individual merit. Our parish has one such priest, and it is him I went to after D-day no. 2 - he is about 70, very warm, with lots of experience in marriage counselling. He was helpful to me as far as he could be - my H is still not willing to go to joint M counselling. I did not consider going to my parish priest - he is quite cold and I felt he wouldn't understand. <p>I went to confession once with a visiting African priest whom I have great regard for - what a great preacher! - and he told me I should not let any of my actions with regard to my H be motivated by anger, but search my heart and make sure that my actions were motivated by charity - he said that God usually does not intervene, but allows us to exercise our free will, and my H must choose for himself how he wants to conduct his life. That was helpful.<p>A year ago, after D-day no. 1, I went to the Franciscans in our town - I always find monks to be quite generous in the help they try to give - I was definitely in extremis - going into physical shock, my brother had just died - and the brother I spoke to saw me during Mass while someone else took care of my kids, then saw me every day for the next 4 days and managed to get my H into a joint session, the upshot of that being that my H said he was unhappily married, that I dragged him down and he had to "ring-fence" himself against me emotionally. Afterwards he said he didn't want to have to do that again - the brother had given us the number of his Superior, whom I rang, and my H and I both went to see him - since it was clear my H was not going to talk any more, the Superior did all the talking, and he had a lot of worthwhile things to say - I said, trying to be generous, that I was learning that my H did not belong to me, he belonged to Christ. The Superior said I was wrong, that my H did belong to me, because he had given himself to me when he stood at the altar - that WAS what he had done, and he could not take himself and give himself to someone else, because that was tantamount to stealing from me - he could not give away that which no longer belonged to him, and he no longer belonged to himself, because he had given himself to me - and vice versa - nor could I give myself away to another - <p>None of this seemed to make any impression on my H - six months later he was falling in love with OW2. My H's justification is that he has not had sex with them, so it is not being unfaithful - he calls it simply "the joy of friendship" - ("I kiss all your blonde parts!" Is that the joy of friendship?!!) I do have some hope that now that we are both in IC, we have a chance of healing our M - I don't think that a few talks with our parish priest would ever have been enough for us - but to their credit, they WERE there when I needed them.<p>All this just shows us that being Catholic makes not a lot of difference - being Catholic does not change basic human nature and you can be just as heavily in the fog even if you're Catholic.<p>The difference is, I think, that maybe a Catholic like my H (who until now has been rigidly devout - that's why I TRUSTED him so MUCH) deep down KNOWS what he is doing is wrong, and is not going to walk out the door lightly - I think if my H were not Catholic, he would be physically involved with OW and much more likely to leave me. So maybe being Catholic gives us half a chance of staying together.<p>A big however, though, is that I feel trapped - I think I would have walked out 6 months ago after D-day no 2, if i could have afforded it, and IF I wasn't held back by my belief - I feel he has used me and trampled all over my belief in lifetime marriage - it makes it easy for him to have his emotional cake and eat it too - knowing I believe that. Still - the Church does annul marriages - this is it's way of dealing with abusive marriages, and I know that I can always go that route if things get intolerable.<p>Odile

Albert, HFS, TinyDancer & Odile -<p>Thanks for your responses. I opened this topic to see where you all were with your faith and vows, etc. being a Catholic.<p>I, too, grew up Catholic - but consider myself to be "part-time" as far as going to Church, etc. I think everyone goes through this at some point. <p>Since the separation, I have really looked at my faith. I respect it and admire it. I took my vows very seriously as I know we all did.<p>My H was baptized but didn't receive any other sacraments. Priest who married us is 30 year old friend of my parents and an East Coast Italian (like my H) so they immediately bonded.<p>I have talked to him twice since the separation. He is very disappointed in my H and his recent behavior. We (priest & I) had a heart to heart. I told him I was contemplating divorce at this point and he is VERY supportive. <p>Alot of our issues were truly issues prior to the marriage. He also told me that if I decided to divorce, he would help me with the annulment if I wanted one - which I will. <p>Has anyone been annuled? What's involved? I know it's alot of extensive paperwork and you can't get started until AFTER you're divorced. Iknow you have to have witnesses too. <p>Other Catholic questions: If one does not get annulled and remarrys I know they are not considered married in the Catholic Church. Can their children still be baptized and grow up Catholic? Can they remarry in Catholic Church once the annulment is final? Just something I'm wondering - I honestly NEVER thought I'd be asking any of these questions, but was hoping someone would know.<p>Thanks,
Llama

I am a convert to Catholicism, as is my H - yes, it's true.<p>As to annulment - I think if the priest who married you is supportive of you doing this, and will help you, you should persevere with the process.<p>My story is a little unique - when I was very young, I married a BF to get him his green card - OK, I admit I was really mixed up and it wasn't the greatest thing to do (someday in my old age, I'll write about it). But that was before I became a Catholic - and for me, it was a legal arrangement. After he and I were separated and divorced, I became a Catholic and then my H, also a Catholic, asked me to marry him, so in order to get married in our faith, I had to get the first marriage annulled. The grounds for this were straightforward - the man I had married WAS a Catholic and had married without permission of the church in a non-Catholic ceremony, therefore his marriage to me, which was not considered sacramental, could be annulled. I had to get a copy of his baptismal certificate and the testimony of 2 Catholic witnesses who knew me well to say that the marriage was never a "real" marriage. I submitted all the forms through my parish priest to the chancery office, and it was approved within 3 months and I was free to marry. I think this was an "easy" case.<p>I would say that your priest should know best how to proceed - you say your H was baptized but never received confirmation - if he was not a practicing "believer" and he abused you by his behaviour, or by being unfaithful, you should get a sympathetic hearing and should not be afraid to go forward. You will have to get the testimony of witnesses to back up your version of events. This is the process by which the Church tries to deal compassionately with marriages which fail due to abuse and I think infidelity can be considered as a form of abuse, especially if the unfaithful partner refuses to accept counselling, or cease the affair. After your annulment is granted you will be able to marry again within the Church, as I understand it.
Divorced Catholics are allowed to go to communion even if they are divorced - they are only not allowed communion if they remarry without having their marriage annulled, or if they are divorced and remarry outside the church.<p>I'm pretty sure I'm giving you correct info here, but check it out with your priest. <p>Also, each annulment is individual - I know someone who is the BS, from a HUGE Catholic family, with 5 children. His wife had an affair with his best friend and walked out, taking the children with her. After the divorce, she applied for an annulment and it was granted, so she married her new partner. This I don't understand, and on the surface, it looks wrong. But the important thing to remember is that a marriage is ultimately quite private and there may have been abuse there which we don't know about. It's interesting that this BS swears blind that they had the perfect marriage, and that he didn't know anything was wrong until the day she walked out, while the kids say that he was very hard on them, and hit them hard enough to leave marks. Things aren't always what they seem.<p>Don't be afraid to make further enquiries or be frightened off by the process, which you may find difficult to go through, having to rehash old and painful history. I would go back to your priest and talk to him further.<p>Odile

Thanks for sharing Odile. Do you know the part I asked about children if you remarry and are not annulled? Just curious. I'm very lucky to have a priest who will be supportive through the crazy paperwork - which I heard is a bear! I had also met a priest this past weekend and his response to my H behavior was "jacka$$" - go figure! I am thinking it will be helpful in the annulment process that my husband never received any other sacraments, etc. And, I hope it doesn't take long and that he's cooperative about it. I know you can still get annulled without the cooperation of the other spouse, but it could take a LONG time, possibly 18 months. <p>Thanks again for your reply!<p>Llama Hhugs,
Llama

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by llama:
<strong>Has anyone been annuled? What's involved? </strong><p>My first marriage was annulled. It is a lot of paper work but if you have the money, they will usually give you the annullment<p><strong>
If one does not get annulled and remarrys I know they are not considered married in the Catholic Church. Can their children still be baptized and grow up Catholic?</strong> <p>Yes your children can be baptized and raised as catholic<p><strong>Can they remarry in Catholic Church once the annulment is final?</strong><p>Yes. You just give the priest a copy of your annullment papers and there's no problemOriginally posted by llama:
<strong>Has anyone been annuled? What's involved? </strong><p>My first marriage was annuled. It is a lot of paper work but if you have the money, they will usually give you the annulment (sad but true)<p><strong>
If one does not get annulled and remarrys I know they are not considered married in the Catholic Church. Can their children still be baptized and grow up Catholic?</strong> <p>Yes your children can be baptized and raised as catholic<p><strong>Can they remarry in Catholic Church once the annulment is final?</strong><p>Yes. You just give the priest a copy of your annulment papers and there's no problem
<hr></blockquote><p>Hope this helps<p>[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: TinyDancer ]</p>

Llama,
Glad to be able to be helpful - it looks like Tiny Dancer answered the other question for you. I didn't find the paperwork too much of a problem - seemed pretty simple to me. And yes, I think it will help you a lot that he wasn't interested in receiving any of the other sacraments, and that he is co-operative. I know it's painful, but if that's the way he is being, you are better off with a clean slate to start again with someone who can really love and cherish you.<p>Take care,
Odile

A journeying... faith building... Catholic here!<p>A point of clarification I feel should be added to Tiny Dancer's reply.<p>-------------------<p>Has anyone been annuled? What's involved? <p>...but if you have the money, they will usually give you the annullment.<p>...no tribunal will deny you an annulment... if you don't have the money now... ...they will accomodate any financial situation... but do expect some way to offset the true expenses of processing the annulment...
...compared to a typeical divorce... it is a fraction of the cost!<p>--------------<p>
If one does not get annulled and remarrys I know they are not considered married in the Catholic Church. Can their children still be baptized and grow up Catholic?<p>Yes your children can be baptized and raised as catholic<p>You ARE in fact married... to your ex-spouse... until the anullment is final... unitl then you are living in sin... unless you live as "brother and sister".<p>The children can be baptized at the discretion of the local ordinary (the priest)...
The purpose of Baptism requires that there is a commitment that the parents (and godparents) can and will raise the children as Catholic...
...that's why you can't just walk through a hospital and baptize all the new borns in the maternity wing! That judgment is again made by the local ordinary.<p>--------------------<p>I too will be starting on my annulment shortly...<p>God's graces on your faith journey...<p>Jim/NSR

NSR thanks for clarifying. I had a bitter annulment lol. <p>My first husband (to whom I was married for less than a year) tried to have our marriage annulled without telling me. He had his new fiancee sign my name! When I called the tribunal I was told "he paid the $2500.00 how were we to know you didn't sign the papers?". <p>Also I am one of those Catholic's who isn't "really" married in the eyes of the church because we were married in a civil ceremony. The priest did have my H, who isn't Catholic, agree to raise them in the Catholic Faith but said it was a moot point since we weren't really married lol. <p>Hmm does that mean he didn't really have an A? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I am Catholic. I did not seek an annulment from my first husband because he is deceased.
My second husband is Catholic but he would not get married in the Church. After years of abuse and multiple affairs I talked to our Priest about where the Church stood on a divorce and an annulment (actually a dispensation since we were not married by the Church). Father told me that we did not have a marriage in reality and that the Church does not expect a person to stay in an unhealthy situation. Said he would support a divorce and a dispensation. I just have not gotten one yet. Seems like a lot of paperwork.
STL, my H, received an annulment from his first wife. She ran off with her biker boyfriend 6 months into their marriage. So there really was not a marriage. He is now divorced from his second wife but has decided to not get an annulment since they have two children together. An annulment will hurt the kids.. it does matter to them. I support him in this.
Before we got married I did a lot of research on dispensations and annulments. There is a lot of info available on the internet. It’s a good place to get started so that you have a clue as to how to approach this.
Yes, you can remarry in the Church once the annulment is final. My H actually did this. He and his second wife married and then remarried several months later when the annulment was final.
“ I honestly NEVER thought I'd be asking any of these questions”
I’m sure that none of us ever thought we’d be going through all of this. We are not defined by the trials that are given to us but at what we make of them.

Odile, TinyDancer, NSR & Zorweb -<p>Great information - thank you all. I'm not too worried about being granted an annulment more than I'm worried about my H being a big pain in the a$$ trying to hold everything up out of anger, etc. <p>The only thing that scares me at this point is actually filing for a D. I know I will need to change the locks in the house as H may really go nuts. (He hasn't lived there in over 2 months). I'm thinking he will move away after I talk to him.<p>Any advice on talking to him? I want the divorce to be as amicable as possible. I know I will have to pay him if I want to keep the house (he has no desire to move back into house). My therapist says expect the worse - that really thrills me!<p>My sister is divorced - very very amicable. She said if it gets ugly (we really have nothing to fight over - but he may get petty) that's what an attorney if for. I have a good attorney. My parents are going to loan me the retainer ($1,500).<p>I'm very nervous about the whole thing - not being divorced, but H reaction to it. It was just a month ago that he was threatening it and to embarrass me with getting served at work, etc. - how mature, right? He has an attorney. I'm hoping he'll give me her name and I can have the law firm sign for his papers, etc. I don't want any trouble. I just want to move on.<p>It's truly amazing to see how far I've come in just two months. But when you think about it, it's been alot longer.<p>Thank you again and good luck in your own endeavors.<p>Llama