Mr. & Mrs. Dreamland - <p>I have left some comments to you on my thread. It if up to the both of you (you should make this decision together) as to whether a response makes sense.<p>Cheers<p>Onwardandup

Hi Mrs. Dreamland,
I also have a question for you, and since you were brave enough to post on OandU's thread, I thought I'd post this here and hope you saw it.
From some things Dreamland has said, I have always wondered if you suffered Post-Natal Depression - perhaps undiagnosed. I suffered PND after the birth of each of my sons, born 3 years apart, but since I live in the UK, where I think there is more understanding of this, I was, at least, diagnosed and given basic treatment. The damage to my own marriage, for which I feel I am at least partly responsible for, is the result of my behaviour while I was suffering from this depression. I think it was hard for my H to even begin to understand what had become of his wife - his own personal problems made it almost impossible for him to try to help me, or to relate to me, and IMO I think this made my depression far worse.<p>However, 6 years down the line, the proof is in the pudding - my boys are great - handsome, well-balanced, sociable, intelligent, achievers - so even though my self-confidence as a mom, and my guilt over how I treated them, especially no. 1 was huge, I can now see that I was, and AM a good mom, and I was NOT crazy.<p>I have wondered, from some of what Dreamland has said, whether or not your self-esteem hit an all-time low after your first son was born, especially since Dreamland seemed to have stepped in for you - I would have deeply appreciated my H giving me the kind of support Dreamland gave to you, but it can be a two-edged sword - by picking up too much, you may have felt your feelings of failure reinforced. And if you felt a failure at home, at least at work, under a high-flying boss, you were able to reclaim at least some sense of real worth.<p>Maybe this is just coffee-table analysis and totally off-base, but I have been wondering. Dreamland has always said that you are a great mom - I wonder how YOU feel about it.
If this is part of the source of your current difficulties, maybe it would be a good idea to talk about this with each other, and leave the subject of the A, and your EN's out of it for awhile. <p>What I learned from having PND is that it is hormonal - and it goes completely within 3 years - there are symptoms which are not immediately apparent which only other sufferers can help you identify. Post partum psychosis is different. PND comes on sometimes 8 weeks after, or like with me 3-5 months after the birth and is related to your hormone cycle. Your perceptions of your own emotions, needs and other people are somewhat distorted at this time. The most comforting this - it DOES go away.<p>Also - in your post to OandU, you said something about finding your powerful boss attractive. I understand this - its something some of us women don't like to admit, that we are attracted to male power, and it makes us feel great to be the ONE that the guy with a lot of power WANTS. Sometimes its almost irresistable. Having lived a little longer, I can tell you that when you feel this way, this should be your RED FLAG to RUN THE OTHER WAY!!! You are attracted to someone who can't help but want to, indeed, gets pleasure out of dominating you. You are giving up your own power as a woman and as a person to someone else. You will pay a heavy price for this in the long run and in the end, your H and kids will come out better than you, even they lose you. YOU are the one who will lose most because you will lose your independence, that thing which you think your powerful boss is so attracted to.<p>Thats my HO. You can flame me if you want. I'm just talking straight here. <p>Odile

Onwardandup:<p>Whew! I do not want to talk about my own messy A in this forum but will dig deep (this is painful) to answer your questions. First I want to respond to your first message.<p>1. You made a point of saying that your W’s A is getting in the way of your relationship with your W. This is incorrect. Your W’s A is a symptom of your deteriorating relationship with your W. There are other BIGGER things that got in the way of your M before the A. Additionally, from the way this point read, your wife does not seem to be trustworthy...which is an entirely different problem altogether. But you said that when she cries, she shuts down communication. You asked for suggestions. When she cries, make sure you are giving her all of your attention. If you were reading, stop. If TV (yes, even soccer) is on, turn it off. Turn to her and hold her and instead of saying, "What's wrong?", "How can I help?", "What happened?" etc., try this: "I know this is extremely painful for you. If I were you, I would feel so very sad. I don't know how you manage to be so successful at work and here at home with all that is going on in your life. You have got a huge burden on your shoulders and I want you to know that I will be here for you regardless. I want to help you so that you will feel good again. I want you to shine like you did when we were first married. I dont like seeing you hurt like this. I love you with all of my heart." Try empathizing with her to get her to open up. See if this works in your favor?!?<p>You also mentioned that Affection (this does not mean sex) and Admiration are her top emotional needs. Men always think that Affection is foreplay...it is not. Women want Affection and want sex when they want sex. The two are different. [BTW, for a woman, good relationship = good sex, bad relationship = bad sex]. Some ideas for A&A are:
1. Call her during the day. Tell her you were thinking of her and wanted to say Hi and you love her.
2. Tell her she is pretty, attractive and make romantic remarks.
3. Be sympathetic to her.
4. Accept who she is.
5. Draw a bath for her when she comes home from work, light a candle and play soft music.
6. Write love notes to her and send her a homemade lovecard to the office.
7. Talk to her during lovemaking and afterwards. Express your desires openly, share yourself more fully with her; caress and hold her after lovemaking. Also, make lovemaking a new experience every time.
8. Be interested in her during the morning and at night - Turn off the TV and don't read.
9. Help with dinner dishes and clean the kitchen (assuming she cooked).
10. Be silly with her and say sweet little nothings.
11. Bring her flowers occasionally (I think roses are overrated. Bright Gerber Daisies are the Best!)
12. Hold her hand and kiss her on the cheek especially at unromantic times.
13. Express appreciation for the things she does (say the meal was good, appreciate the tidy home, thank her for what she does do).
14. Say nice things about her in front of others.
15. Spend quiet time with her, just sharing life.
Your W will know you are sincere about showing Affection and Admiration when you do / give these things without expecting anything in return. If you are consistent and free with this, she will "get it".<p>Now on to answering your questions (gag!):
1. I agree that my H loves me unconditionally, as you love your W. I know that my love for OM is insecure and based on how he makes me feel. However, the "fantasy" with the OM includes true and unconditional love in the equation. I hope that the fantasy is real.
2. My Plan?!?!?! OM comes with a very angry and vindictive wife, 4 kids, no proven protection for me, no real kind consideration for me AND YET I MAKE EXCUSES FOR IT ALL. Why? I lost my head, my standards, and my morals when I gave my heart to him. Doesn't make much sense does it? Slowly, I think I am seeing OM for what he truly is. A man married to his job and primarily concerned about his own well-being and happiness. Since I am the ultimate people pleaser, I aid in making sure he is happy at my expense. Finding resolution to all of this and defining a plan would be much easier if my heart was not so tormented.
3. What would make a difference to your W? Great question! I do not know what state your W is in or where their A is at. But I do know that for her to have entered an A, she must have been very taken with OM. He has romanced her. Has been very passionate with her. Made her feel wonderful again. She probably feels the best (prettiest, most spirited, most special, the greatest) when she is with him. This may not all be reality, but for her, it is. She knows what life has been like with you...maybe stale, no fun, stressed, not much attention. Although she knows logically she needs to remain in her marriage, she compares the two of you and sees that if she chooses you, she will be giving up all of these wonderful things that (she thinks) only he can give her. So, IMHO, that is what you can give her....don't make her choose between what you were and what he is. Allow her to choose between what you are and what he is. Maybe too he is starting to sour a bit. He has a lot of strikes against him...several As, D, potential step kids, XW, 15 years older.<p>I wish you success, and I wish your W a quick exit from the fog. I am afraid this will be difficult if she is seeing him everyday. This is so very difficult. <p>Mrs. Dreamland

Odile:<p>I suffered with PPD after the birth of both of my sons. However, I did not realize I had this after my first son was born. I did realize it after second son was born. There are a lot of reasons why my H HAD to step in for me after son#1 was born. Emotionally, I was not healthy.
* PPD blindsided me - did not expect it and did not know what it was.
* Son#1 was very sick and I could not make him well.
* I was not able to nurse him. Something I was ridiculed for by my family.
* I did not immediately bond with him. (this hurt the worst!)
* I was torn between my career (which I was only 4 years into) and staying with my baby. Baby, of course, won! I have worked from home the past 2.5 years so that I could be with him.
Needless-to-say, Motherhood the first time around was no walk-in-the-park. It was a very difficult transition, which I did not expect. So yes, H was WONDERFUL in helping out. He gave when I couldn't...and I couldn't quite a bit.
I was about 3 months pregnant when I began A. I was scared to death about having another baby given my first experience. Since H gave most of his efforts to son#1 when at home, and I had anxiety about another baby and focused on continuing my career, the environment was set for an A. In walks attention and charm and persistance....Mr. Wonderful (OM) made me feel great (sounds so shallow) at a time when I was absolutely terrified. Now I find myself deep in an A with a man that I know has faults (see comments in post to O&U). I still find myself making excuses for him but this too is getting very tiresome.
Son#2 has been a blessing to our family. He completes our family and is perfect. He looks just like my H. My kids are well-adjusted, spirited, happy, bubbly and wonderful. Everyone comments on how happy they are and some even say that it is a reflection of my mothering. I do not feel this way. I do not look at myself as a good mom and feel that when people tell me this, they are "just saying it". [H says this a lot and I discount it.] I love my kids and I KNOW they feel loved. Maybe I too am my own worst critic.<p>Hope I answered some of your questions.<p>Mrs. Dreamland<p>[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: mrs. dreamland ]</p>

Mrs Dreamland,
First, I want to thank you for being brave enough to come onto this forum and share your thoughts with everyone here. I'm sure I am not the only one who finds your side of the coin helpful to read, too. Like someone else said, this is a place for people who are trying to work out troubled marriages, not just for the BS. <p>Second, thank you for being so honest in answering my questions about PPD. Somehow I suspected this was the case. I CAN identify with your feelings of terror. I never thought of myself as being a very maternal person and I HATE being pregnant. I had PND after my 1st son was born. I felt it coming on at about 8 weeks - I also could not fully breast feed - I tried but didn't have enough milk and he started to lose weight. Thankfully, I had a midwife who recommended I "top up" with bottles, and helped me not to feel guilty about this. This helped me bond with him, but it didn't relieve the pressure I felt - I remember once reaching out and rolling him away from me across the bed, just to get him away from me, then being horrified because he could have fallen off the bed. I also couldn't stand the sound of him breathing in his cot next to my bed and I begged my H to move him into the other room because the sound kept me awake and I needed to sleep so bad. I was very sensitive to sound, and not aware that this was a symptom. When I had PND the second time, my 2nd son slept in the other room, and I hallucinated that I could hear him crying through the closed door. I would get up and go check on him and he would be sound asleep. I would go back to bed and as soon as my head hit the pillow again, I could swear I could hear him crying. I never would have hurt either of my sons for the world, but I was explosive. I was most explosive with my H and everything he did seemed wrong to me. It didn't help that he was not very sympathetic or helpful - he was working 7 days a week and totally into his own career. I was the one who KNEW there was something wrong with me and took myself to the doctor. Having had PND once and being very demoralized, I was also terrified of having another child. The second time was worse and I was thankful to go on to Prozac, which I took for 3 years. I saw it as the best thing I could do for my children, even though I didn't want to do it for myself. i do believe my 2nd son benefited from it - my 1st son did suffer from my treatment of him and I give my H the credit for stepping in where I failed. <p>However, and this is what I would really like to say to you. I felt SO BAD about myself as a mother - so BAD. Everyone also told me I was a great mom, even my H, but I didn't believe it myself. It was only when my 1st son started school and after the first year, I saw that he really had turned out OK - yes, he IS still quite particular about certain things - he likes routine and gets disturbed by too much choice and he is also quite tempermental. Still - it was only when he was in school and I saw him start to progress that I realized it was OK, I hadn't ruined him for life, and that I really had contributed a lot to him being the great little guy that he is. Now he's 9 and he goes from strength to strength - he has won a full scholarship to a private music school and his teachers and classmates all look up to him - he is described as very sociable and hard working, independent. It's only now that I am finally giving myself some credit for doing something right after all. I'm sure that as the years go on, if you are there for your sons, you will be able to feel good about yourself, too - PND has a very debilitating effect on how you see yourself.<p>I always say that although son no. 2 sent me into PND for a second time, he was the best thing I ever did. He was completely different from his brother - son no. 1 fought me every step of the way (that's his nature) - son no. 2 was as loving as the day is long and gives back to me in spades whatever I gave him. I tried to breast feed him, but gave up completely after 10 days. I was being brutal to son no. 1 and it was too painful. The hormone which makes you lactate is also a depressant so breast-feeding is not a good idea if you suffer PND.<p>I remember the days where I would "hit the wall" - my brain would just plain stop working - it was all I could do to just sit in a chair and watch the children to make sure they didn't hurt themselves, but I couldn't play with them, or respond to them. When my H came home, I would drag myself up to bed, take off my clothes and curl up under the covers. This would usually throw my H - he would turn around and I was gone - I was too "shot" to even be able to articulate what was happening to me. His initial reaction would be to get irritated - it always took him a while to figure out what was going on when this happened - I still just think this was so thoughtless of him - how sick do you have to be before someone notices? <p>I also believe that in my case, my H's EAs are symptomatic of the problems in our R - and we are trying to begin to address those problems through counselling. For my H, it is the abuse he suffered and continues to suffer at the hands of his parents. Everyone brings "baggage'" to a marriage - and we are all individuals reacting to situations differently. My marriage might never have reached the point it has had I been more outgoing and gone back to work earlier - I think I would have been happier and my H wouldn't have been able to use my depression as a club to beat me with. <p>I hope you and Dreamland can work things out and stay together. He does love you very deeply. As to sex, I read what you said to OandU and I agree with you that most women find it hard to have sex with one man when they are in love with another. Having had 3 serious R, I think, with hindsight, I would say that sex bonds a woman to a man, regardless of whether or not that man is good for the woman. A woman who is not a tart (as they say in the UK) finds it hard to be with more than one man, and sex has a bonding effect - lots of this is hormones, you know. Once bonded in this way, it is very hard to break free, and a woman will accept being treated badly - manipulated and let down - because of the strength of this bond which has been created by sex. Your bond with your H has been radically disturbed by having had sex with OM. It feels like love to you with the OM, but your rational mind can see that there are things about OM that are not quite right - still, the bond has been forged and it draws you back.
Your bond with your H will never return completely until you can break free of the bond with the OM, which is, in a way, holding you an emotional prisoner. If he is manipulative, and it sounds like he is, then he knows this, and that is why he seeks physical contact with you. Men can be very ruthless about this. Like I said before - you are a talented woman and your H says you are beautiful - ask yourself again, do you want to be dominated by someone - do you want to give up your independence - do you want to be ruled? I am 45 - you are still in your 20's - don't waste all this beauty and talent letting yourself be used by someone with so many of his own problems. With your skills can you not get a similar supporting job with a different company? <p>Odile

Onwardandup,<p>I do not have much to say about all of this. (I guess that is prety amazing in itself. I am quite a rambler.)<p>It is amazing how written words cement feelings into reality, especially when the words written are carefully crafted and sincere. What my wife effortlessly writes here and in your post has taken me months and months to unlock the mysteries that she held in her head and even to understand all of this. <p>I am not sure how to feel now. I am not happy or sad. I just exist. I still painfully love her as you love your wife, unconditionally, the same way I love my children, but much deeper. I have hurt her in the past and with some of the words I have put on these posts.<p>[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

Dreamland - <p>Hang in there. I have so much to say, but I'm not sure if I will have the opportunity tonight. I realize everything seems so difficult right now but you will be OK. Dig deep, you are stronger than you think.<p>
Mrs. Dreamland - <p>I have some thoughts for you also. Just too short on time and too many things to do. I do appreciate your sharing...it isn't a lot of fun, but you never know what you may learn about yourself and from others (despite the YUK!).

OK, so I have little time to write. <p>Mrs. Dreamland - <p>I want to say that from what you have written and shared you are a special and beautiful person. It is not easy to share the difficult things in our lives and to look critically at ourselves. You have responded honestly and although I may not approve of your situation I feel for everything you are going through.<p>I have a few responses to what you have said about my situation...<p>You are correct about the A being a symptom of the breakdown in my marriage. This is the same thing my WW says, "The A would never have happened if things were good at home". I have been working hard to correct these issues and think I have made good progress. The problem I have with the A is that it prevents my WW from seeing and accepting the things I am doing. Each of us only has so much energy to give to a relationship. When she gives to her relationship with the OM or receives from him it makes her unable to accept the things I am doing. <p>So while the A is not the cause of our problems its continued existence makes it difficult for her to give me a chance. I honestly believe that if the two of us were working on fixing things we could get over the past. We could create a new and better relationship.<p>I appreciate the advice you give me on things I can do for her. I guess I don't just want it to be a competition with the OM. Maybe this is how it has to be, but if the A was over I think we could figure out if things could work…I’m not sure we can figure this out as things stand. I will try some of the things you suggest. My goal is to save my marriage and regain the love of my wife. This is certainly worth the effort to me.<p>
As for your situation. My wife also suffered PPD. I assumed many responsibilities at home and this made her feel bad about being a mother. She never bonded with our daughter and this left another hole in her life along with my withdrawal. You should not feel bad about this situation. It happens to a lot of women and bashing yourself serves no purpose. I believe what Dreamland says…You are a great mother. <p>It is also important to have a life and career of your own. But you need to feel good about yourself and not rely on others for your sense of self-worth. Yes this is easier said than done, but I have been there. I think if you look deeply inside you will find that what you get from the OM is related to how you feel about yourself. When you feel good about yourself and love yourself the things you are getting from this relationship will not be strong. This is just my opinion so I hope you are not offended.<p>My question about your plan was meant to stimulate your thinking about the current situation. You state that your heart is tormented, I expected this. At some point you need to figure out what to do. If nothing else start to consider what it is that will help you understand everything going on in your life. I see you are starting to asses things on a less emotional level. This is necessary because the decisions you make and actions you take will be the most critical in your life.<p>Cheers.

Dreamland - <p>Strange how things happen, I had a long post for you and my computer crashed and it is gone so I will try to summarize (it is late).<p>1. It has shown a lot for your wife to share here and you should repect this. I think this shows action on her part to look inside herself at the wole situation and this is good (I appologize for writting about you Mrs. Dreamland...feel free to comment on what I say here).<p>2. I think her A will eventually die. Just my opinion but the signs are there.<p>3. From what she has written the situation seems very close to what is stated on the MB site. I guess the search for meaning may have been too deep. At least you are armed with more information.<p>4. I think what she has said only validates the usefullness of a good Plan A. I think it is time to once again look at yourself. She has given you some things that you could do but they are only part of the picture. I think you should focus on being the best person you can be. When the A does die she needs to see that you are someone she would want to spend her life with. In other words don't spend all of your time trying to do things for her, work on yourself also. This is a recipe for a happy Dreamland no matter what the outcome in your marriage. <p>
I am sorry if I have overstepped by engaging your wife in the forum. I did not mean to bring you any hurt. IMHO you are better with more information no matter what that information is. In this case I don't think the information is all bad.<p>
One last though...I hope everyone is rooting for the USA against Germany in the World Cup Soccer on Friday morning (oh yeah, that is today). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

onwardandup said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You are correct about the A being a symptom of the breakdown in my marriage. This is the same thing my WW says, "The A would never have happened if things were good at home". I have been working hard to correct these issues and think I have made good progress. The problem I have with the A is that it prevents my WW from seeing and accepting the things I am doing. Each of us only has so much energy to give to a relationship. When she gives to her relationship with the OM or receives from him it makes her unable to accept the things I am doing. <p>So while the A is not the cause of our problems its continued existence makes it difficult for her to give me a chance. I honestly believe that if the two of us were working on fixing things we could get over the past. We could create a new and better relationship. <hr></blockquote><p>I know the feeling myself. Back last summer when I was working extremely long hours, and being on call 24/7, the WW was complaining. There were actually MANY times that I would work for 40 straight, non-stop hours. There were plenty of times that within 2 hours of me getting home from work, I was called right back. That was the job. Too much work for one, but not enough for the company to justify hiring another. But the pay was very good, and she really did like the complete financial control that I had given her.<p>Little did I know that the A was ongoing. There were MANY times that I would get home around 4 in the morning or so, but instead of going to bed to sleep (Because I may get called out within a few hours), I would purposely stay awake until she got up around 7 AM. I would stay awake the entire time she was getting ready to go to work, and would try to at least allow time for us to communicate with each other. I would not retire for bed until she left around 8:30AM or so, and numerous times I would just get in bed and at 9:00 or so I was called back out. I did this many times.<p>Sometimes we would go for a week or longer and never see each other, even though we lived in the same house. I was giving up much needed sleep just to have the chance to hear her voice, and see her face, even if it was just for a few moments. Trust me from experience, you cannot work 40 straight hours, or just get maybe 6-8 hours of sleep over a 4 day period, and "catch-up" with ONE night of 8 hours sleep. I know that it would take a few somewhat "normal" days to even feel half of what you should. <p>After my job became a routine 7am-3pm, 5 days/wk job, I really was cranking. I wanted to make up for lost time, and made it a point to have plans every weekend with the WW. I also took a greater interest in the "gardening" part of our yard more so than ever, simply because she loved doing those things. I made it a point to want to eat dinner with her every evening, because I had gone for so long without those moments, that I really, really missed them. I would listen to my WW talk about happenings at work, etc., and let her lead the conversations. We hadn't been able to do that in a number of years, and I so deeply missed those opportunities and wanted to experience them again, especially after she had complained about them.<p>But you know what? She has a VERY hard time seeing the things I did. Why? As onwardandup said, all of her "focus" was elsewhere. Especially on the weekends, because that had been "their" time. I had cut into that hard, unknowingly.<p>I think it was because after she become emotionally involved with the OM, and emotionally detached from me, any thing I did was a moot point. At that time, she did not want those things anymore from me. So...in essence, I was actually wasting my time, with her attention and energy elsewhere. The things that were critical to her before, were no longer critical in the sense that she did not "see" the changes, because she had no desire to "look" for them. And as long as the OM was in the picture, filling her head with the infatuated feelings, I subconsciously ceased to exist in her mind.<p>That is why it is imperative that the WS detach completely from the OP. As long as the OP is in the forefront, most changes by the BS go ignored.<p>The saying that the A is a symptom of something wrong in the marriage is true indeed. But then the wrong cannot be fixed because the WS usually doesn't even look at reparing the M as important to them as the A. Catch-22, huh? Someone has to take the first initiative. Plan A is just that. The BS takes the first step. That is all the WS has to notice. If a WS can notice just the first step of a BS in reparing the M, then I think everything will fall into place.<p>So...don't place the biggest attention on all of the ongoing things that the BS does. Just look at the "First step". Because it is the largest one in reparing the M. If the WS can see that and really appreciate, everything else will come naturally.<p>As a BS speaking from experience, that very first step we take, the one in which we decide that our M is worth it, is a HUGE one. We, in essence, have decided to jump off the Empire State building, and don't worry about whether or not there is a safety net or cushion at the bottom. We just do it. That, I think, speaks more than anything else we do.<p>hcii

Odile:<p>I am glad to hear that your boys are thriving and happy. (Boys are so funny and charming aren’t they? My oldest son is Dennis the Menace through and through. ) I am also glad to hear that you have overcome your experiences with PPD. <p>Bravo to you for your comments on the A, WW and OM. I agree completely….well said. It is because I have allowed OM into my M and into my life that makes this so terribly difficult. I am emotionally attached and it is so extremely painful. You words, I think, describe the situation perfectly and give me much to think about. Thank you for your insightfulness. (I love reading what you have to say.)<p>Onwardandup:<p>You are right about believing that your W is not going to see your good efforts in light of the fact that she is in A. She will not see or appreciate all of them. But over time, if done consistently and sincerely (w/o expecting anything in return), I believe she will take notice of them. Just truly love and accept who she is and it will be easier to “love” her.<p>Hcii:<p>I was sorry to read that your wife recently filed for D. Sounds like you are doing the right things on taking the “first step” and showing her that you can be attentive and appreciative of her.<p>Dreamland, Onwardandup and Hcii:
I have been thinking a lot about the strength created by unconditional love, a topic discussed by Dreamland and Onwardandup. In fact, O&W, you asked me to define love. Here are my thoughts on the subject:
· Unconditional love exists. You love fully and completely without judgment or bias or reason. You just do (love..unconditionally). This is the love you all (I am assuming you as well hcii) have for your WWs.
· Passionate, Romantic love is conditional. This is the love that Harley speaks of…it is the one that is measured by the love bank. It is an ACTIVE love…and is a conditional love.
Think back to before the A’s began. Were you loving unconditionally or were you loving romantically or were you doing both? The love I have for DL is unconditional. There is nothing he could do (I believe) that would make me stop loving him. However, there have been plenty of things that he has or has not done that has made me not be “in love” with him. (I am not using this to excuse my behavior in the A.) I am, and your WW’s are, “in love” with OM. They are in the passionate, romantic love stage (which is were you started out with your W’s; isn’t this where all R and all Love begin anyway?). I think the idea for Plan A is to get back to that active stage of love. Date again, romance again, dream together again, share life together again…..STOP just existing! Make your relationship active again and it will flourish. If you allow it to just exist then it will become stale, stagnant, and eventually rancid (which is where we are now). <p>[DL - I know my thoughts are painful to read. I am sorry for this.]<p>Mrs. Dreamland<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: mrs. dreamland ]<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: mrs. dreamland ]</p>

Mrs. Dreamland,<p>You have very insightful words for us all. You have been very truthful to yourself and to those on this forum. The information you share is very valuable to me and to all of BS's here. <p>Sure sharing your feelings brings pain to me, but with this pain comes understanding and a desire in me to truly love you and try to meet your needs. <p>What is love? That is a very good question. I do not feel that anyone can truly grasp the feelings and the human side of all of this. I do think in your last post you have come as close to defining all of love as I have seen because it brings into the equation the true feelings of a WS. I agree whole-heartedly in your definition. However, I think there may need to be additional points added to this equation.<p>Let me briefly touch on what made me think of these additional things. I could be wrong here because I do not know exactly what it is the OM does for you, but I will try. Look back through the list of things in your previous post that defines what you would expect in romance. Consider this your checklist now not for what I have or have not done for you, but for what the OM has done for you. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Now picture the OM in a few years and recheck the list. <p>Here are some things that I assume about your relationship with the OM (some may not be true so please ignore the ones that are not). The OM does not buy you gifts, the OM did nothing special for your birthday and probably will not for any special occasion (and this is typical for him), the OM does not take you on romantic dates (this is just a guess), the OM does not call you everyday (he calls when it is convenient for him and only when he is not mad at you or does not want a response from you), he has not drawn a bath for you and he probably never will (he is married to his work and not a homebody), he has only written one love note to you (that you admitted to) and that was only in the very beginning (where are all his love notes?), he is so busy with work he has to schedule time for you (has he ever cancelled a meeting to see you? Has he ever just showed up? Probably not), do you see him helping with domestic chores? Washing dishes? (No we know that he does not do this, will not even take out garbage), has the OM ever given you flowers?, has he expressed appreciation for you recently, how much quiet time has he given you (he and you have had opportunities). So comparing action to action, if I did increase the romance (and I have done some of this recently only in a small scale to prevent smothering you) I believe that I could easily surpass (and probably already have) the romantic actions he is doing for you.<p>So knowing this, what is the missing ingredient. Certainly, love is an action state and you must continue to do romantic things. I stopped long ago and took our unconditional love for granted. I deeply misunderstood love and took for granted that unconditional love was all there is and that is what marriages become and there is no preventing this. My father taught me this incorrect notion as you have noted in the past to me. I realize now, hopefully not to late, that the romance (acts of true love) was missing with us. I (and maybe you) stopped doing the romantic things together and withdrawal occurred. I am learning how much fun these romantic things are and I want to do all these things again not because I want to get reactions from you but because I truly love you and it makes me feel good inside. I am filling my needs by romancing you and my love bank shoots up every time I do this. That is why my love bank for you now is higher than before all this happened and even higher than it was after "T-man" was born.<p>All this prelude to theorize that one of the missing ingredients is the heart. Call it commitment call it whatever you want. Think back to when OM was pouring on all the charm. When did all of this take an effect on you? When you finally started letting him into your heart. Certainly the actions prior to this had an affect, but I believe it was only just flattering to you. Somewhere along the line there maybe a conscious decision to open your heart to someone and in a way commitment begins that day. As soon as this occurs, I believe the hormones begin to rush in (not to make this love less romantic that it is by this comment, but undeniably hormones plays a big part in romance and the hormones create the passion and the infatuation that we all love to have and keep.) This brings me to the next big point that defines all of love and that is fantasy. <p>Pull out that checklist. How many things is the OM actually doing right now to keep the feelings going? Not much, right? What about the future with OM – even more bleak? So, why do the feelings continue even when the romance comes near to a halt? I believe it is the fantasy that keeps this alive. That is why you can gloss over all the things he is not doing for you now that are extremely important. This is the fog we talk about. It is not meant to belittle the feelings that you have for the OM because I know these feelings are true and very very strong. The hormones and the fantasy of the situation keep this alive. You hope and pray in your heart that the OM is the one and only “night in shining armor” even though you know in your mind he is not. You gloss over the imperfections and flaws and see the OM the way your fantasy sees him. You fantasy provides the missing Romance and keeps the Romance alive in your mind. This is a powerful fantasy maintained by hormones but also by an intense desire to have your heart validated. You need to know that you have not given your heart and person (sex) away in vain. You need to know this so you do not feel used or feel like a tramp. This is why I think you always ask me what I think the OM's motives are and what he truly thinks of you and how he is acting because you are trying to validate your heart the way your fantasy validates your heart.<p>Given our childhood experiences, neither my parents nor yours provided this information to us by way of example. My father (and maybe mother) believes that you just stick it out. The honeymoon is over and that is just the way it is. Your mother on the other hand, (I think) searched (and maybe still searches) for the romance like my parents missed in their relationship. She has been through many relationships in her life because the initial feelings did fade and she thought “that is that” and gave up (mainly because the men in her life did) making the marriage work. She now has chosen religion to fill the void she has in her life.<p>With all of that said, let me try to summarize these thoughts and put them in order of how I believe they occur in relationships.<p>1. Opening of the heart
2. Romance (hormones=infatuation and passion)
3. Fantasy (maintains the hormones even after Romance has calmed itself)
4. Unconditional love (develops after a period of time where you have had a few cycles of 1, 2, and 3 caused from the normal pain in life.)<p>So what should love be and what is a healthy love? I believe to keep love alive and to have a healthy marriage love must cycle itself 1 to 4 over and over again (maybe not always in the order given). Pain, resolution, and recovery (although part of the cycle) occur naturally as a fact of life.<p>All of this to say that all of the romantic actions I throw your way will not have any effect unless you consciously decide to crack open the door to heart just a tiny bit. Fortunately for our marriage, I do not need to have any response from you when I do nice romantic things for you because I do these things from my heart and do not require validation of my actions (actually this sounds a little stronger than I actually am). It just makes me feel good to do things for you. <p>
[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

OMG.<p>Although I have learned tremdendously from this forum, I am pessimistic about the fate of many of the relationships I read about here.<p>But I have never wanted to see a relationship (that wasn't my own) work out more than I want to see Mr. and Mrs. Dreamland get it together.<p>I hope that's not putting too much pressure on.

Thanks curious. I am very hopefull. Many positive things here. I am going to concentrate on the positive.

Dreamland - <p>Glad to see you are no longer at a loss for words. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just remember you don't want to pursue too hard and only focus on what Mrs. Dreamland would like to see. I still think there is ample opportunity for you to look at yourself. This needs to be a significant part of your Plan A. Remember you need to be the type of person she would like to be with when she turns the A off. She may not open up her heart untill then so don't go overboard and scare her off. Just focus on being the best person you can be and throw in some of the things she is looking for. Timing is everything, so use your time wisely.