I know about the PA now. Got the evidence from an email that she sent. I still do not know who it was with, but it is one of 2 people. It could have been only 1 time, but I seriously doubt it. She has denied it over and over when I ask if she's interested in someone else.<p>I want to end the lies, deceit, hiding, pretending, etc, but I don't know how to tell her that I know. I'm afraid that it will push her further away once she knows I've been snooping and spying (she's already left, so maybe it won't), and I'm afraid that it may escalate into a nasty DV. Are my fears justified?<p>I don't want to be alone with her when I tell her, but at the same time I want privacy for her to express her feelings. Maybe have a friend ride with me and then I go inside to break the news to her? Maybe have her come over to my house? Maybe invite her to one of my counseling sessions and talk it out there (she probably won't come)?<p>I need some ideas on how to tell her, but not use it as a "you're wrong, you're the bad guy" type of situation. I want to use the information that I know to somehow work FOR me rather than AGAINST me in saving my marriage, no matter how sick that sounds right now. <p>Just FYI... I plan to still file for DV, but I may not go through with it if I see improvements in her in the next couple months.

nasakid-<p>I understand how you feel. If you can not keep the information contained any longer then you do need to tell you W. Be sure to follow the rules of protection and care. You don't want to LB during this exchange. You might even want to write out what you are going to say so that you don't deviate from the script and start LBing. One thing that concerns me is that you don't seem to know for sure who the OM is. Are you positive there even is another man? Are you sure that it is PA? Do you have enough evidence to convict in court (figure of speech)?<p>Some say that recovery is easier if the WS spills the beans. Some say that they WS should just be confronted with the facts. If you do confront your WS with the facts, or if she admits to the A, what next? Do you have a response or answer?<p>Here's something that was suggested to me. If you need time alone with her, arrange for this time. Don't wait until you guys are both too tired late at night. Since she knows you've been spying as a REACTION to her lies and deceit, further spying won't really surprise her. If you know 100% about the A and who the OM is, then tell her you know that she is doing things that are keeping your M from recovering. Ask her what she is going to do about it. Ask her if she has some kind of plan to work on recovery of her M to you. Again, stay calm. Try to be a good listener and make your W feel safe in telling you what is going on. If she doesn't budge off of the statement, "I don't know what you are talking about, give me more specifics." then tell her you know she is having an affair and that HER choices are making it difficult for you to see how this marriage can be saved. Does SHE have any ideas on what can be done to save this marriage? Try to avoid giving her ideas. This isn't exactly a 'teaching' moment. If your W admits to having the A and wants to know what you want to do, ask her for her ideas since it was HER choice to have the A in the first place. You certainly contributed to the bad state of the marriage but it was HER choice to break the marriage covenant. If she wants to know what you want to do next and you have already explained that you want to save the marriage, tell her you need some time to thing about that and then drop the conversation. Finish completely. You do need to give yourself time to formulate an answer.<p>What you are trying to do is not easy. My W basically continued to lie about everything until she actually saw my evidence. Then, she only admitted to the evidence at hand and nothing more. I hope your W isn't this way. Remember, she is the one making these choices. You need to hear from her what she is going to do now. You have been hurt and you are scared. She should know this. Don't let her guilt trip you about the sluething (just don't admit to doing anything that might be considered illegal like wire taps because it will be used against you). The sleuthing isn't the problem, it is her inability to provide for your safety and to guard her feelings.<p>Good luck nasakid. It sounds like you still have a lot of love left for your W. She needs to know how you are feeling as a result of this new information. DO NOT go into this with expectations or you could be in for a hard fall. Don't expect her to show a lot of sympathy or remorse. Each of us is responsible for our own feelings. Don't be surprised if your W may need some additional time to give you her answer. If she says she needs time, then ask her when she will be ready to talk about it. Schedule a time, soon. If she wants to give it a few hours or another day, respect that and give her time. Show her that you care and want to protect her.<p>If she admits to the A, what are you going to do next? You wrote that you are going to file for D but then you talk about holding off. Have you really given Plan A time to work or given it your best effort? If she says the A is over, what are you going to do? Is marriage counseling an option? You need to find out from her what she wants to do next and how she wants to get there. If she says she wants to have a happy and healthy marriage, ask her what it will take to get there. This will be a great starting point for you guys.<p>Even if she has moved out, you can still Plan A her although it is more difficult. If you haven't given Plan A a try, then I wouldn't recommend jumping to Plan B or a divorce. I jumped from Plan A to divorce because of illegal things my W was involved in and because she wasn't stopping, I needed to seek protection for the kids and assets from the courts.<p>Best to you. You can handle this.<p>HoFS

The hard part about this is that she is convinced that the marriage is over. This PA may be a result of that line of thinking and she may say "so what if you know. I already told you that it's over". Right now she is just waiting to file for DV to make me happy. I wanted her to give the separation at least 2 months to see if she can change.<p>After I confront her, and I ask her what she want to do, I know that she will say "let's file for DV" b/c she has moved out thinking that it's the only option that will lead to her happiness. She believes that she never loved me, even before the marriage. That's why I'm so torn on how to tell her b/c she may not care and it may just cause her to end it all sooner without giving our marriage a chance.

nasakid-<p>Has anyone asked you this question, "Why do you want to stay married to a woman that treats you like dirt and says that she doesn't love you (never did) and wants a divorce?" Do you have a good answer? She doesn't want to meet any of your emotional needs or probably even know what your top 5 needs are (do you know hers?). Has your W ever expressed what went wrong in the marriage (it obviously didn't take long for something to go wrong)? She did love you at one time. What caused that love to fail or be drained away?<p>For now, why don't you let the filing be HER choice? Sounds like she is ready for it. You don't have to take the lead. BTW, if she moved out, how did you find the e-mails? Be careful if you are monitoring the computer she is using in her new place. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Most affairs do not have a long life. Can you give this some more time? Can you be pleasant and Plan A her and perhaps just date her after a little time? I'm not suggesting not to protect yourself. CYA! Take care of the assets, etc. so she can't spend it all or hide it. How is she supporting herself? Is she dependent at all on you since she moved out? If she doesn't want to live with you, and she keeps spending your money on OM, then it is time to cut her off BUT, you don't have to divorce to do this.<p>Since her love bank account is still in fairly good shape, I'd recommend you give this a little time. Stop contacting her but don't prohibit her from contacting you. Don't appear needy. You do appear needy. Be pleasant when you talk with her. Like I said, ask her what she wants to do next. If she wants a D, tell her to go file but that you would prefer to give reconciliation a chance. If she says she is going to file, let her but, go see an attorney yourself and get advice on what you should be doing next to protect yourself. See more than one attorney because they are all a little different. Usually the first visit is realitvely inexpensive. Any attorney you see will not be able to take on your W as a client so you could make it more difficult to find representation by visiting a lot of offices.<p>Good luck with your talk. Be ready to tell her to file if she says that is what she wants to do next. If you want to give recovery a chance, then tell her that and tell her that you don't want a divorce. Don't get all weepy on her but do be honest. If you are honest, you can't have any regrets.<p>HoFS<p>[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</p>

I want to save my marriage because I have been through the good times with her and yearn for that person to return to me. I have never met anyone that I have loved this much, and in the beginning, she loved me back more than I could imagine anyone doing. I want to raise a family with HER, not anyone else. I want to share those things in life that I deserve. I know that she is not the only woman on earth, but I'm committed to the marriage. Finding out about the A doesn't change how I feel about the marriage. I still want it to work, but I know that the work I'm going to have to put in may not be worth it if it ultimately fails. Tough decision isn't it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Last night she said that something changed in her before the wedding, but she could not figure out what changed. She is confused in that aspect. Maybe she had an A back then, for all I know.<p>The emails that I have intercepted are on a sub-account under my master account. I have every legal right to monitor them. Also, keystroke-logging software on my PC caught her. She used it before she moved out and the weekend that she was packing up.<p>I can wait a little longer b/c I know that this will take patience (every day I find more that comes from somewhere I don't know about). I have been plan A'ing for over 2 months now. It's all about improving ME [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Financially, we are now completely separated except the car that we co-signed on. She has taken over payments, and I can monitor if she's making them. If she misses one, I told her that I am going to sell it. This is only a temporary arrangement and if we DV, that will be taken care of.<p>I have told her to file now if she's ready, and she won't do it. I think she still is not 100% sure about it. She may be doing it for me, and that is good b/c it shows that she still cares.<p>As for the lawyers, a family friend is going to fill out all the paperwork for us in a "no fault" DV. We can represent ourselves in court. It will be very clean and quick if we get there. We already have a property separation agreement in place. The DV will happen in the blink of an eye if it's the path we take. Just a 60 day waiting period from the file date.

nasakid said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>[/B]I'm afraid that it will push her further away once she knows I've been snooping and spying [/B]<hr></blockquote><p>and.....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Just FYI... I plan to still file for DV, but I may not go through with it if I see improvements in her in the next couple months. <hr></blockquote><p>then....HoFS replied:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> For now, why don't you let the filing be HER choice <hr></blockquote><p>nasakid,<p>Your comments that I quoted sort of contradicted each other. You say that you don't want to push her farther away, but yet you say that you are planning to push her the farthest away.<p>HoFS gave some good advice. I am in exactly the same boat. My WW walked out 7 weeks ago. I found out about the A after the 3rd or 4th day she had been gone. She immediately informed me that she loved me, but was not "in love with me, yada yada yada". She loved OM. Wanted a DV. I said fine....You want one? Go get one. I am not going to go get it for you.<p>I do not know your situation other than what you post, but it has been said many times here that if she can "force" you to file with her actions, then she can "blame" the breakup on you in her mind. She has then justified the marriage breakdown by YOU filing.<p>If you can keep holding off, do so. I know that maybe in some places the first to file may have an advantage when it comes to DV'ing, but I honestly believe that it all depends on the circumstances.<p>I just returned from court today after a hearing where my WW wanted to remove me from our home. She walked out 7 weeks ago on her own. Filed for DV 2 weeks ago. I changed the locks and pi$$ed her off royally. Hence, the hearing today. Didn't do her any good, as the order states that all I have to do is allow her 2 hours to remove the remainder of her items from here.<p>Just make sure that you don't let her "force" you into doing something that you really don't want. As a matter of fact, the "heat" here is going to get hotter, because today she received my response to her filing. In it I DENIED the M is broken, and have reserved the right to ask for "statutory court-ordered counseling". I am pretty sure that is going to make her boil. In other words, I am doing everything in my power to be able to walk away from my M, should it end in Dv, knowing that I did EVERYTHING I could to save it. And I will be able to walk away with my head held high.<p>I will not give her ANY reason to say otherwise, which most WS's want to be able to do, so they can justify their actions.<p>Just my $.02....That's about what it's worth, too.<p>hcii

Thanks for the boost hcii. I don't want to file, but finding out about the PA makes me think that since we don't have kids or a house (renting) that I'll just be better off finding someone who CAN love me like a wife should. I know my wife is capable of doing that, but I may never see that side of her ever again. I have little invested in this marriage besides emotional ties. I plan to wait a couple months and see how things go. I think that she should file first, but I need to talk to my lawyer to see if it would give me better chances of securing more property if I filed first.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have little invested in this marriage besides emotional ties. <hr></blockquote><p>I just went back before I said anything and looked at your sig line. Notice that you have been married almost 2 years. And...looks like you are in your mid-late twenties?<p>In my case, I see my emotional ties as my BIGGEST investment. But...of course, I have been marrried for 14 years this Sept., also, and been with her for almost 16. So....My emotional ties have had many more years to develop.<p>Although I do not have a lot, I have a moderate amount of financial investment in our M. Even though we own the house, there is a mortgage with not much equity.<p>But you know what? Even with the stuff we have, and my retirement fund in the 6 figure range, I would not even hesitate one moment to give it all to go back in time and fix the things that were wrong BEFORE they were "torn-up". As a matter of fact, I would probably give it all up if someone could have found a way for me to not go through the emotional rollercoaster that I have over the past 7 weeks or so, regardless of her A.<p>IMHO, if you are looking at the aspect of finances right now at this juncture, maybe you need to really dig deep and see what you want. I know there will be many that disagree with me. I am all for you protecting yourself should DV be around the corner.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Finding out about the A doesn't change how I feel about the marriage. I still want it to work, but I know that the work I'm going to have to put in may not be worth it if it ultimately fails. Tough decision isn't it <hr></blockquote><p>The "worth" as you put it is only a perception. It cannot be defined, actually.<p>But...the "worth" of the work that you put into saving the marriage is only what YOU derive out of it. Not the marriage. Not the "if IT ultimately fails". You cannot control the outcome of your marriage. It takes the both of you. As long as YOU feel YOU did everything that YOU could to do YOUR part, then YOU have NOT failed. May sound a little wierd, or a little harsh, but don't take it that way.<p>As long as you want the marriage to work, and you do YOUR part, then you can't fail.<p>And the feeling that you eventually obtain from that, will be well "worth" it.<p>HCII