Hi all,<p>Today's mail brought a lovely little surprise... an envelope addressed to H with LAW ENFORCEMENT NOTICE on it in BIG RED LETTERS. It's about unpaid parking tickets - I can see this through the window of the envelope, I have not opened it.<p>H got a parking ticket down at school last month, which I paid. The check cleared the bank a week before this letter was mailed. So... obviously something is wrong. Either he had another ticket that he never paid, or they didn't record the payment, or... who knows.<p>I am not handling this for him. He needs to take responsibility for things like this. My dilemma is how do I get this and the info on the cleared check to him - we're not supposed to be talking to each other! <p>I know he's working tonight at the restaurant, which is maybe a mile from our house. I thought about going up there and leaving it in his car, but if he sees me doing that, he might have a cow (he keeps his journal there, might think I am trying to take it). I also could see him thinking it's a summons from the court regarding a divorce - until he looked at where it was from. While it might be interesting to give him that bit of heart failure, it's not something I'm really ready to do. I thought about giving it to his parents, but I don't really want to put them in the middle. <p>So... what I'm thinking I'll do is go up there, dressed casually but nicely, walk in and hand it to him. I'll say hi, and that this looked pretty important so I brought it over, explain about the check clearing, and then tell him I have to go. If he asks me how I am... well, that's the tough part. I don't really want to say ok because I'm not. So I'm not sure what I should say... I guess just something noncommittal...<p>Any thoughts/suggestions/ideas? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

I would just go drop it off like you suggested. It's not a big deal and besides, it's his issue to handle.

Well, that was not very encouraging.<p>I walked in and once he saw me he looked concerned. He walked over and I said exactly what I planned to say. He opened the envelope and apparently payment wasn't recorded for the recent ticket or one last August, and the city is fining him $150. I told him I could look up the check info for the older ticket. He said if I would do that he'd appreciate it, and asked me to leave it for him. I looked at him quizzically, thinking "leave it for you *where*?" and I think he understood because then he asked me to email it to him.<p>Then I asked him if he'd heard about the death of a friend's grandmother, he said he hadn't. I told him friend's wife sent an email, he replied that he doesn't have regular access to a computer, so hasn't checked it. I told him that friends were with their parents, and would be at our house tomorrow night. (That felt weird, saying "our house".) I asked if he had friend's cell phone number, he said he did. I said ok, well see you later... and he said bye... and that was it.<p>He didn't ask me how I was. I didn't ask him either. He looked kind of rough - tired maybe, dunno. He was serving tonight, and just got a new table, so maybe he was distracted and tired after a busy Friday night. Probably wasn't too happy about getting a bill for $150 either. <p>He didn't seem happy to see me at all. Didn't walk me out like he used to. I guess I was pretty businesslike, and he responded in kind. Sigh. I hate this. Now I'm sitting here crying. This is just great.<p>I didn't really expect him to jump for joy when he saw me, but I guess I thought I'd get a little more concern or something. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

FWIW JG,<p>From my "observations" here on MB, I think it's very, very common for WS who are going through Plan B or something like a Plan B to look very "rough" - and to probably behave like they're not exactly "too together".<p>So don't worry about it "saying" too much. He's behaving "normally" as WS's go. They've got to suffer a whole lot before the cost of staying the same exceeds that of changing.

J.R.,<p>That's a really good point, thank you for giving me the perspective that I am too close to see.<p>I realized something else last night while I was laying in bed trying to fall asleep... him saying "leave it for me" (about the check information) is something he used to say when he lived here - meaning leave it on the desk and he would take care of it. Since he started working nights a year ago, we wouldn't see each other as much, so if there was something he needed to take care of, I'd leave it for him so he'd see it when he got home.<p>(Warning: overanalysis follows.)<p>Even with the sleeping pill it still takes me a while to fall asleep, and I am paid to analyze things, so of course, I did. I came up with the following:<p>1. It was simply force of habit. He's only been gone a week, so it would be easy to just say something like that offhand.
2. He's still in denial and not facing reality. Last week when I told him I was still having trouble believing this was really happening, he said he was too.
3. He was going to say he'd come over and get it as a reason to come to the house and be in familiar surroundings.<p>Ok, that's enough of that. <p>I'm very curious to see what, if anything, he does tonight... H has always really enjoyed having houseguests for the weekend. He's very social, outgoing, charismatic, and loves nothing more than to have a group of his friends in his house. I let him know last night that our friends who had the death in the family would be staying at our house tonight... so I wonder if he's going to try to see them/come over/something. I think at least it will be a reminder of better times and how things will change if we do split... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Jelly Girl ]</p>

It seems to me that all of this is normal JG. There will be things to work out logistically in Plan B, and it will be awkward at first.<p>Perhaps to avoid the "discomfort" of these unexpected meetings, you could mail him his stuff, or leave it at a friend's house to pick up and send him an email so he knows...there are many ways you can think of, I'm sure.

JG,<p>But between the 2 of you, who looked better? I am sure it was U. See it is a good sign when the WS looks worn, beaten and haggered. Confusion runs rampant at this time and well that is also a good sign. <p>So you keep looking good. He even asked you to help him. hm....... he also noticed that you have the lasted info about friends/family and keep doing things with others. He needs to feel left out because of his decisions and see if he likes it. <p>Let him stew this way for a while and yes you are right to let him handle his own stuff. The ones you choose to help him with is up to you. Not him. He can ask but you don't have to accmodate everytime. In fact he may ask just to test you. Crazy but true. <p>take care you see to be doing good even between those tears [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>hugz,
L.

Hang in the JG. I'm pulling through you. I've been in Plan B for 3 weeks now and I am feeling better than I have since D-day. I'm not sure what that means though.

Space, you're right. I'll have to think of something.<p>Orchid, I'm sure I looked better too. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I put on some subtle makeup and wore something kinda casually sexy that I knew he'd like. Didn't seem to have much effect, though. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Yeah, he did seem a bit put out by the fact that he hadn't heard about that news... but I know people have tried to call him and gotten no answer.<p>And now for something weird... I'm getting this feeling that there's something our friends know that they're not telling me... maybe it's just people being uncomfortable because things have changed... but there are friends I haven't heard from that I thought would have contacted me by now... and others seem to be somewhat evasive... maybe I'm just paranoid, I dunno. <p>My friends who are visiting tonight called a bit ago and said they'd be here in about an hour... they'd finally talked to H, who apparently suggested that they come to breakfast/brunch at the restaurant where he works... he's managing tomorrow so he'll have a bit of time to chat with them. This all feels so weird... used to be that whenever friends stayed over and H had to work Sunday morning, we'd *all* go eat up there... sigh. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One last bit... I made up a spreadsheet of our financial situation... H is going to have several cows when he sees it... I don't think he has any clue how much he's got in student loans... not looking forward to that conversation. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Jelly Girl ]</p>

What a weekend.<p>So... friends arrive Sat. around 6pm. We talk, go out to dinner, talk some more. Friend who has known about all of this all along comes up with interesting observation about H's lying problem - I am the only person in his life who won't tolerate it - nobody else really calls him on it. She also noted that he is someone who lies to people so as not to hurt their feelings, and that he knew telling me the truth about OW would hurt me, but I also wouldn't accept the lies, so he didn't know what to do. That still doesn't make his selfish actions ok, but it's something I need to think about more.<p>Around 1am Saturday night/Sunday morning, I hear my front door open and close, and the alarm start beeping. This doesn't seem strange at first - I got very used to H coming home late, so I automatically assumed it was him. I get out of bed and stumble into the hallway, and H comes upstairs. I am not very awake, and the sleeping pill is really messing with my head, so at first I couldn't figure out what was happening. H comes up to me and asks "did you take my backpack with my journal out of my car?" I have no idea what he's talking about, and say so. <p>Apparently he'd gone to get a drink with his coworkers after work, and while he was there his backpack containing 2 journals, most of his CDs and his sunglasses was stolen from his car. I tell him I didn't take it, and he apologizes for coming over and waking me up (I think, this whole conversation is very fuzzy.) I follow him downstairs, give him a hug, and he leaves. About 10 minutes later I call his cell phone to let him know why I was so groggy and he reiterates that he hopes I didn't take it because he'd be really angry. I go back to sleep.<p>Sunday morning I call him to see if he found it, and he hadn't. He is very, very upset about this. I explain that I was with friends the whole evening, I didn't know he was going out after work... and he says he doesn't think I took it, but still sounds mad. I ask him if he's upset with me, he says no, just upset about the theft. Friends go up and see him for breakfast, he tells them he realized pretty much as soon as he saw me in the hallway mostly asleep that he shouldn't have come over to the house like that. <p>Later I'm thinking about it and realizing that what he did was pretty messed up (I also figured out that he had looked in my car - it was unlocked after I'd left it locked), and we need to talk. So I go up to the restaurant this afternoon, and he's still in a bad mood. I tell him that what he did wasn't the best idea, that I understand why he did it, but it still wasn't cool. He agreed. He said the thought of me taking the backpack wasn't his first one, only after going back to work and looking around did he think of coming to the house. He said he sat outside wondering if he should call or just come in, and decided to just come in (I get very startled when the phone rings late at night.) <p>So we talk about it for a few more minutes, at some point he says "the house is your place right now" which I thought was interesting - he didn't just say "your place" or "your place now" - he added that qualifier of "right". (I know, call me the queen of overinterpretation...) He reiterates that he is not mad at me, just very upset about the loss, I suggest we call the police and the insurance company, he says no. I tell him if anyone calls about it, I'll let him know right away, and he thanks me for coming up to talk to him. Again, no how are you doings from either of us, and the conversation lasted maybe 10 minutes before he had to get back to work. <p>I go have dinner at my brother's house, and when I get home there's a message on the machine for H that I was pretty sure he'd want to hear. At this point I figured no contact for today was already shot, so I called him and passed on the message, but apparently this person called his cell so he already got it. He was pleasant on the phone, thanked me for calling him, but neither of us prolonged the conversation. I did mention that I'd just gotten home, but not where I'd been, so hopefully he picked up on the fact that I'm not sitting in the house moping.<p>So I guess we're back to no contact till the end of the two weeks, and I get to go through withdrawal again. Yay. At least it's only till Saturday... but I don't have any idea what's going to happen then. We had originally said 2 weeks no contact, one month no big decisions. We did not make plans to see each other after the two weeks, the plan is to talk on the phone and see how we're feeling. <p>I guess it's time to really start working on my Plan B letter... and pray that the fog begins to clear.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jelly Girl:
<strong>... I'm sure I looked better too. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I put on some subtle makeup and wore something kinda casually sexy that I knew he'd like. Didn't seem to have much effect, though....</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's only because you forgot to bring the jelly! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And now for something weird... I'm getting this feeling that there's something our friends know that they're not telling me... maybe it's just people being uncomfortable because things have changed... but there are friends I haven't heard from that I thought would have contacted me by now... and others seem to be somewhat evasive... maybe I'm just paranoid, I dunno. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>I don't know if it's universal, but I wouldn't read TOO much into this. Same thing happened to us; as soon as people sense or hear things are not too well, or there's problems in the M, they tend to run in the other direction as fast as they can...maybe it's the famous "conspiracy of silence" that someone wrote about infidelity, maybe they feel it's contagious...I don't know, but I'll tell you it's weird! Some of the people you'd expect to be more supportive, interested, just vanish from the scene...I don't think it's personal...maybe they feel inadequate, don't know how to act or what to say...

Space,<p>Darn, I knew I forgot something! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think you are probably right... some people don't know what to say, don't want to get involved, etc... It is very weird, though. <p>I'm not feeling very hopeful today. One of our friends who saw him last week said he was saying things like "I think it's for real this time" and "It's tearing me up to know that I'm hurting her" - so he knows what he's doing to me, but he's determined to do it anyway!<p>I feel like he's running away from his problems rather than trying to solve them... and I don't know why it's just ok for him to break a lifetime commitment without doing *everything* possible to fix the problems.

I feel like I'm reading my own story when I read yours Jelly Girl. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] You and your H sound a lot like us.<p>I hope and pray YOUR H will wake up and realize what he's trying to throw away before he does it.<p>The overall feeling I get from talking with my ex now, is he thought he was searching for happiness, and didn't find it - of course. He also was convinced that the "perfect" anything exists out there: the perfect job, wife, life. He's learning - as we all have to learn - that we should count our blessings, be thankful for what we have, focus on the good in everything... and NOT throw away something just because it's not perfect. He's changed jobs an average of every 2-3 years for 12 years now. Guess I should be happy he didn't trade ME in after 2-3 years!!! I lasted more than any job he's had!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck Jelly. Maybe Peanut Butter Boy will stick around. (oooohhh... that was bad!) [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously.. {{{{{Jelly Girl}}}} Hang in there hun. Patience is your best friend right now while H is searching.<p>[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

No contact means No contact.<p>Stop finding excuses or reasons to contact him -- regardless of their importance.<p>I think everything you did about his missing backpack was out of order. Its his problem -- let him deal with it. If anything your overconcern about it makes you sound paranoid and more suspicious as the culprit.<p>Are you a fixer by nature??

Things are really bad - this is the short version, will explain in more detail tomorrow when I'm not so tired and sad.<p>H saw OW today. I got very upset and called him twice, but didn't tell him I knew he'd seen her. I did a lot of wrong things - I cried, told him I missed him, told him I loved him (got the "I know" for the first time). He was very sympathetic and understanding, but I talked to another friend who told me he is saying he is definitely done, that none of the signs I was interpreting as indecision were anything more than him just trying to make this easier on me. I tried to get him to come over one night this week so we can just start talking about the "arrangements" that have to be made, but he said he thinks we should not talk to each other this week as we planned and we will talk on Saturday. He kept saying he was sorry this was so hard on me, that it was hard for him too. <p>At the very least I need to go to Plan B... but I may just be done. This man is selfish, immature, untrustworthy... I can't keep going on like this. After all we've been through, after all I've done for him, if this is how he treats me... I'm not sure I want him anymore. He's dumping me just as he's about to get his college degree. I supported him through it and this is the thanks I get. <p>I'm considering packing up his stuff and having it waiting by the door when he gets here Saturday, along with a list of his bills. I'm thinking about asking him for a power of attorney to sell the house, getting his keys back and changing the alarm code. I feel pathetic for allowing this man to treat me this way and still wanting him. He doesn't deserve me. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

((JG))
I'm sorry for your pain. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Sounds like plan B might be a good idea to protect yourself emotionally.
Make decisions once your head is 'clear'. I'll say a prayer for you. God bless.
(You gave me support recently, when I was having a bad night, and I appreciated that. Just wanted to offer the same).

JG,<p>I realize it hurts to know he's in contact with OW... but this is something I've learned through all of this... pretend you're confident, happy and calm, even if you're torn up inside. If you haven't read it yet, I suggest "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson... many practical ideas on establishing the best attitude for dealing with these aliens with moose brain worms.<p>Another one to pick up is "Divorce Remedy" by Michelle Weiner-Davis. Lots of good ideas also... very much centered around the attitudes that work. The attitudes that DON'T work are to be clingy, needy and appearing weak. Anything that creates any level of pressure is amplified for WS's. The total absence of pressure tends to act like a vaccum - sucks them towards you.<p>It's not a game... because these are the things you'd be practicing if you were just dating this guy. Just pretend you've met him only recently... you've been single for a long time, and you have no real interest in anything serious. So would you plead and say "I love you"... probably not. Probably would be relaxed since you don't NEED him to live... you need food, air and water - you don't need some guy! (Sure, you'd prefer it to work out, but it's only a preference... the more you treat it like a need, the more you push it away!)<p>Anyhow, two books to look for.

Here's some excerpts from a little PDF book I found a long time ago on the net... has some valid concepts also we all might find useful....<p>
A movie not very long ago called “The Fan,” DeNiro is this fanatical fan. He practically
worships this baseball player who’s a home run hitter. The home run hitter goes through a
batting slump where he is never hitting anything. And then all of a sudden, he starts
hitting home runs again. Well, this intrigued DeNiro, the fan, so much that he looked him
up and said, “What happened so that you’re hitting home runs again?” He said, “I
stopped caring, and that relaxed me so much.”<p>The more that we relax, we lose our anxiety, we have fun, and we become more efficient.
Whether it’s sex or public speaking, it doesn’t make any difference.<p>....<p>You relax, have fun. But you can’t relax if you exaggerate the importance of something. If you
think that you need to get your mate back, if you need her, then there’s no chance that you’re
going to get her back because you’re lying to yourself, you’re putting yourself down, you’re
attacking her pride. You’re turning yourself into a baby and a tyrant. This makes you less
attractive and less interesting. Relax. Realize that you don’t need.<p>....<p>I ask many people, “Before you were in love, what were you doing?” “Oh, I was enjoying
friends and enjoying my freedom.” “Were you happy?” “Oh, yeah.” “And you weren’t
romantically involved?” “No. I had friends, my job, my school, whatever.” In order to
make it into secure happiness, you’ve got to start caring about facts. Now, you don’t have
to make it into maturity. You do not have to make it into a secure happiness. But if you
do, you have to achieve that by caring about facts. What’s true? What works?<p>It’s not true that you need to be loved, that’s boloney. It’s nice to be loved. But the more
you need it, the more you’re equipped to get hurt, angry, criticize, complain, argue, show
jealousy. All these bad feelings come from the intellectual belief that you need to be loved,
that you need to be believed, that you need to be trusted.<p>....<p>So you really don’t know anybody who’s fallen in love with somebody they’re ashamed of. So
then, it shows to us the importance of protecting their pride and our own. And the more you believe you need something, you attack their pride. And believing that you need whatever you
desire is an attack on your own pride.
This is why criticizing, complaining, arguing, and showing jealousy are the worst things that we
can do, because that is experienced as an attack on both people’s pride. You see, because the
more you criticize and complain, the more your pride feels insecure or hurt, as well as the
person that you’re arguing with.<p>Now, this is the idea of always agreeing with the other person, particularly their negative emotions.<p>You see, if a wife is rejecting a husband, she is in love with her negative feelings, so she’s
letting her negative feelings be in charge of the door. So when he agrees with her negative
feelings and does not defend himself, shuts up, sounds sincere, immediately the door opens.
And he goes into her mind and heart. But that’s not normal. The normal thing is to try to reason
with her, which means to tell her that those negative feelings may be right to a degree, but
they’re also wrong. And boy, those negative feelings, they have to be regarded as one hundred
percent right.<p>....<p>I use this technique [acting happy] with husbands, because people tend to value independence — the idea
of independence. They don’t know what the hell it is, but they want it. So they define
independence the way a maladjusted 15-year-old does. “If I can spit at the principal or the
teacher or my parents, that proves how independent I am.” So they define independence
as rebellion.<p>Now this takes advantage of the wife’s urge to rebel, and it frustrates her neurosis. It
frustrates her desire to fight, because the husband takes away some of her excuses for
fighting with him.<p>[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

Just to echo J.R.'s comments re: Plan A attitude:<p>When my wife finally decided to break it off, one of the first things she said is that I never raised my voice once throughout the whole ordeal. Of course that's not 100% true. You'd have to be superhuman...but note that the IMPRESSION I left was so huge she even re-wrote some history! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] My general approach was patience and calm, laced with confidence and an independent, "I can carry on elsewhere if need be" attitude.<p>I believe that approach really turned up the heat on her to justify the A on all it's illogical levels (this one had plenty, thankfully). Perhaps it turned the spotlight on the OP too...he probably realized he couldn't break me (even came to my house to say he intended to marry my WW [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] , thinking a Dv was a slam dunk...yeah right!).<p>[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: mark2002 ]<p>[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: mark2002 ]<p>[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: mark2002 ]</p>

Thanks to all of you for your support and responses... I will reply to them soon... just got an email from H that I wanted to post:<p>***************************
Hey,
Just wanted to let you know that I am going to swing by the house tomorrow during the day to pick up the side view mirror so I can fix my car. I need to get it inspected this week.
I hope you are feeling better.
Talk to you soon
(H)
***************************<p>He's not signing "Love, H" anymore, which doesn't really surprise me in light of the fact that he knows I was interpreting things like that the way I was. It sucks, but I'm not surprised.<p>I'm wondering if this is a good place to start establishing boundaries/independence somehow? Maybe tell him I don't want him to come by the house when I'm not there/at all? Arrange to drop the mirror off somewhere he can get it?<p>I just don't know how to go forward... I feel like I need to face the reality of what he's saying and not allow myself to have false hope, so I need to do something different... Help!
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]