Hello, hello!
Tomorrow is the big day for me, maybe. WW and I have a counseling session in the morning where she will try and show that it is best for the kids to D solely by her rules. She gets kids on her schedule, keeps apt. etc.<p>Through much thought and internal debate, I have come to the conclusion that if she isn´t interested in working on our relationship, then I will head back to the US to an environment that is more condusive personally (unfortunately, w/o the kids). I realize the pitfalls of my decision, but also understand if I am to find true happiness, it won´t be in Scandinavia. <p>Somewhat related to all of this, and a question that has been nagging at me recently, is the repeated claim by my WW that "she doesn´t love me anymore," and that is her excuse why she seeks relationships with others. How does one counter this powerful statement, if at all???
This will most likely come up in counseling tomorrow, what do I say??? <p>Ideas?<p>
Sweden

Hi Sweden,
I truely think that if she is saying that she doesn't love you anymore and this is the reason for her to have affairs it is her problem.
It will always be the same problem for her if she doesn't choose to change something in her behavior. If she gets into a new relationship and feels that she is missing something and feels that she is falling out of love she will be doing the same failure over and over again.
There is never a reason to have an affair, nothing in this world justifies having an affair!!!!
If she doesn't "feel love" for you anymore she'd be facing the problem in a responsible and respectful way and she would consider the fact that you are both parents and this is the most important matter at the moment not her love life and what she is missing and her affairs. <p>It's like buying a car and finding out that it doesn't work and then just buying the next one to find out this doesn't work either etc.........
Instead of getting the first one fixed you end up having a junk yard full of cars (and you'll be saying the cars are all *hit!!!!) and none will ever work until you start to do the work and get it fixed so that it will work.<p>Sorry for compairing a relationship with cars but I couldn't find a better comparence.<p>
She will be making the same mistake over and over again. <p>Hope this will help you abit.
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BB

Sweden;
The "I don't love you any more" is a textbook WS line. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, and usually is just one of the justifying reasons WSs give themselves in order to feel less guilty about the A.<p>Because of your children, I would urge you to think about Plan B for a couple of months before leaving for the US. At least you will know you did everything possible before giving up.

Give the MC a bit of credit....they've seen it all and won't be easily mislead by her 'games'. She'd have to be an incredible liar to get away with some of that stuff. Trust me...a good counsellor will expose her for what she really is; that's their job! Please reconsider leaving your kids...your running away/escaping from problems (as WW has done) won't help the kids at all. They need you both to be there for them. Give yourself some time before you make a final decision.<p>I'm not sure if she loves you or not...I do know those words certainly don't excuse her actions. She is just trying to justify her emotionally immature behaviour. I know this is difficult (I've been there), but don't make any hasty decisions; now is not the right time. You need to be thinking a little more clearly and how can you make such important choices re:your life and your kids lives without ALL the answers? You can't! Sit tight and learn as much as you can.<p>[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: mgm ]</p>

Thanks for the replies!
This is my 3rd or 4th trip down the A road with her. I feel staying for only the kids sake totally will give into her desires. It seems single parenting is the national pasttime here in Sweden. As much as it breaks my heart to leave the kids, I know I will never find any sort of happiness here. I need to be back on my home turf; it is also probably what the kids would want, but I can't press this issue. <p>There comes a time when one just needs to say, enough is enough. She has a last chance to keep me here, and I will stay if it means her committing to the M. I have little hope at this point, but at least I know I have done everything I could have. I have endured lies, coverups, & deceit for 5 years now with her. It's time to see how serious she really is here.<p>The other issue:
It's not only the classic "I don't love you anymore," but the "I never did really love you" ouch!!! The reason I'm asking about this is because if I had a great way to counter her when she says this (which she will again tomorrow), it might make her stop and think. This sort of thing has worked in the past with me. <p>The MC has been quite hopeless. She beats around the bush to get my WW to open up during the sessions, but all-in-all, she has no talents at bringing out the immature bahaviors of my W. It's frustrating, but I guess better than nothing.<p>Sweden

Sweden:<p>"It's not only the classic "I don't love you anymore," but the "I never did really love you" ouch!!! "<p>Now you KNOW she's lying. That's simply a ridiculous statement. Why marry you if she didn't love you? Are you rich? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sadly, though, I've tried to be reasonable with my W in MC sessions, and it just doesn't always work, and usually doesn't work the way I would like. In the end, we are making a bit of progress with this MC, and since my W is happy with her, I'll stick it out. Do you think this MC is beating around the bush, or perhaps she realizes that you W is too fogged to be hit with tough thought-provoking questions?<p>I suspect our MC is taking it easy because the situation is so fragle with my W. If I push, for example, she'll get angry and we'll be set back. That's been less and less frequent with time, fortunately, but I still feel like we've got a long way to go. It seems worth the wait/work, at this point, though. But the big difference between me and you, Sweden, is that my W has at least said all along that our M is worth working on. And this has been at the same time she's made the comments you say your W is saying, plus a few of her own (like the "M is legalized prostitution" thing - Sheesh! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] ). But baby steps for us. For you? I don't know.

I'll post again after the MC session...<p>Sweden

The Post-MC Session Update.<p>WW and I attended our MC session two hours ago. I think everything went as planned. <p>She began the session by attacking me on all the usual subjects--the vacation, bringing the kids to McDs, child custody, etc. After about about 25 minutes of rather seemingless descussions, I received a confirmation from my W that she had NO desires to work on your M, and that she wanted a D. She affirmed and then I proceeded to let her and the MC know of my plans to move back to the US.
It is difficult to say what the impact of my decision was on her; she kept coming back to attacking for the other things, which all now don't make a difference if I am leaving.
We scheduled two more appointments with the MC in the coming two weeks. I really don't have anything to discuss further, so I think that my W can attend them alone--it might be beneficial for her...?
I'm experiencing this bitter-sweet feeling. I feel a sense of relief about everything & finally moving on with my life, but also hate the thought of living many thousand miles (kilometers) from the kids.
As for the MC. She wasn't so helpful. She is just there as a moderator. There is no emphasis placed on strategies to save a M. It is frustrating, but of course, typical for Sweden.<p>That's it from here...<p>Sweden [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Sweden:<p>Your MC sounds like a real turd to me.<p>Your W attacking you, even after you announced your plans to move back to the US after DV, makes me wonder if she really wants the DV. Why would she care if you get out of her life, unless that's not what she wants. Foggy brained people behave in very strange ways.<p>But if you do come back to the US, we will welcome you!<p>take care,

Good day!
This has been one of the frustrations of living in this country for me. People are really laid-back (lazy is another way to describe it). There's no incentive to do more, financial, or otherwise, so everyone does the bare minimum. This lack of ambition seems to get carried over into the MC field also...<p>I know she is still messed up (foggy) because she receives a new pimple on her face every 15 minutes. She must spend (honestly) a hour per day in the bathroom in front of the mirror. <p>As difficult as all this is, I do see some ray of hope somewhere down the road. My wife will probably find it difficult to be a single parent; hopefully, this can coincide with some sort of demise in the relationship with the OM (if there is one). I'm not hoping or waiting for this to happen, but there's just the feeling there. It can be then that I demand that she comes and lives, once and for all, on my turf (if the INS will have her)!<p>One last rant. Today DURING the counseling session my W received a SMS (text message) from someone. She didn't immediately turn the phone off like most civilized individuals would do, but actually sat there and read the message. One could see the MC was very put-off by this act. <p>Time for bed!<p>Sweden