Does anyone recognize this term? I have been looking on the web, using a Google search and typing in "abusive relationships" - the first site that comes up has a lot of interesting stuff on it that rings true for me, and there's all this stuff about people who suffer Borderline Personality Disorder. Has anyone heard of this? I have also looked a lot through their recommended reading list, and found a lot of books I would like to read.<p>My H has been, still is, very emotionally abused by his very controlling parents. I have known my H 17 years, and been married 14, and I have watched this abuse first-hand and fought it tooth and nail, but to no avail. My IL's behaviour is the topic of obsessive conversation within family, when they are not present. All family members are aware of it. My SIL, who committed suicide in Nov, was also obsessed with them, their behaviour and how they impacted on all our lives. My H's brother and his son are in counselling now because of SIL's suicide - my BIL had lots of counselling before her death bcause of his wife's bipolar illness, so in many ways, he is way ahead of my H in understanding parents bad influence. My H is now in counselling and BIL and nephew support him in this. I am just starting IC.<p>I am trying to understand our problems - my H, even though he seems to be recognizing that he has problems, still behaves in a way that suggests to me he still believes that I am the one with the problems. I do have problems. I have suffered depression, my dad is an alcoholic, I know I have been fearful of abandonment because my parents split up when I was 12 over OW, so that is an issue with me. But I'm sure I am not to blame for the problems my H has - and I think he is projecting on to me all of HIS problems.<p>One of his things seems to be that I am passive-aggressive. Well, to me, it appears he is the classic passive-aggressive. I've always described him as "domineering" - for instance, he has to show me how to peel potatos, how to core strawberries the right way, how to boil rice, how to sautee lamb chops - for heaven's sake, I've been cooking for how many years now - he LOVES my cooking - always says how good it is and always says thank you, but he calls this "just helping" - this is what his controlling mother does.<p>Another example - the other day, I had to get passport photos for the boys - this is something he specifically asked me to do - made it my job. So I get ready to go, boys ready, shoes on, jackets on, keys in my hand, and out of kindness, I asked him if he'd like to come with us if he wasn't doing anything else. He thought for a minute then said, sure he'd like to come - but first he had to get his shoes on and lock the back door, etc. I waited for him, we waited for him - he finished shaving, he still didn't come out of the kitchen - I heard the kettle switch on and looked in - he wasn't looking like he was coming - I asked him if he was coming and he said he was having a cup of tea - the water boiled and he poured himself a cup of tea and got the milk out of the fridge - is this passive-aggressive or what?!<p>I said, ummm, you know we are ready and just waiting for you. He said, I'm coming but I'm having a cup of tea first. I said, you know, if the roles were reversed and you were ready and waiting to go out the door with your keys in your hand, and the children waiting, would you be very happy if I just decided you all could wait while I had a nice cup of tea? He said, well if I were you, I would think that maybe he needed a cup of tea and be patient and wait for me. So this is like - now I get to feel guilty because I'm so unfeeling that I can't allow him to have what he needs right now, regardless of the fact that we have now been waiting for him for 10 minutes.<p>What it looks like to me is that he has to be in control of every minute situation and finds ways to control when he feels like he isn't the one making the decisions.<p>He also gets into minor confrontations with people everywhere we go - when I get nervous when this happens, he gets irritated with me - when I say this is always happening, he says I'm generalizing again, and denies that it "always" happens. But it does happen a lot.<p>I'm really confused now as to which one of us is responsible for what.<p>He swears he is not "doing anything" with his "special friend" - to me this sounds like denial. The times I have confronted him and tried to set boundaries have backfired because he makes it look like I am trying to control him.<p>Does this sound familiar to anyone/<p>And also, I think I'm going to change my name - I need a new name which is more upbeat.
I have been down for awhile and confused as to how much plan A, plan B is really relevant to me with the man I am dealing with, but I can't see myself giving up in despair and going back to the way I was. I think I still have work to do on not LB'ing, and I believe MB principles are the best I have found for the basis of a healthy marriage, so I want to continue working with these ideas. Since he exploded at me on 31st of May, i have found it hard to put into practice the good plan A I was doing before - I just haven't wanted to be around him, so it has been hard to be positive and try to fulfill his EN's (Admiration, RC and SF, all of which presume you like the person and want to be with them and want them to be with you) but maybe I'm feeling more able to renew my resolve again.<p>I have thought a lot about my H these past few days - he has been gone on a business trip and will be back Wed. I even took my wedding ring off for awhile to see what it felt like. <p>When I got married, I married for life, and there has never been any other man I am remotely interested in - I still love my husband, and when I take a good honest look at him the way he is, I believe he deserves to be loved. But while he has been gone, I have not missed him, and I have been happier, there is a sense of relief at being able to be myself - not walking on eggs all the time. I know that because of the children, even were we to divorce, we would still have to deal with each other, so divorce would not free me from him. Since he is in IC, and since he has the support of his B, I feel I ought to stay with him while he tries to work things out.<p>Does anyone feel I am up the wazoo here after everything I've been through? I'm just afraid of getting into a cycle which gets ever more and more vicious.<p>Any thoughts? This may be my last post under my old name BTW. You'll have to look at the newbies to find me again! <p>Odile<p> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi O~~~<p>This is weird. You said; "There is a sense of relief at being able to be myself - not walking on eggshells all the time."<p>If you go to amazon.com and do a search under books ... type in "Stop Walking On Eggshells" ..... a book by Paul T. Mason.<p>Did you know about this book or this term before you wrote it?<p>Weird.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Yes, Pepperband,
I had seen that book title, but it's one of the ones wrote down to get, because that's often the way I feel -<p>like he gets upset if I break things - wine glasses, well you know, I call it natural wastage over the years - accidents happen - but it seems to really upset him, and he says I don't know how to take care of things properly. So I have become "conditioned" to be nervous and try to hide it if I break something when he is out of the house, because I know it will upset him when he comes back. That's what I mean by walking on eggshells. To be fair, he seems to have gotten better about this, maybe starting to realize that this is wrong and he doesn't have to be that way.<p>Also, I am always worried about what kind of mood he will be in today, what he is thinking, how to behave around him - this is where i'm not sure whose problem is whose. Am I like this because I am reacting to how to cope with being with him? Or am I like this because of my own problems? This seems to be part of the territory when you are in an abusive relationship.<p>This is stuff I have to work out in therapy.<p>One thing I read was that people with BPD provoke you into an emotional response, so that they can feel what they want to feel. Like, they do something abusive to you - you get mad, which is a natural response, they see you get mad, and feel angry that you are mad at them (they don't acknowledge what they did is abusive and feel you don't have a right to get mad at them), so they can now get mad, too - in other words, they unleash your anger so that they can feel theirs - as long as they can see you feeling anger, they can feel it too - they get you to feel the feelings they can't - then they make it all your fault that there is anger between you.<p>I've already said that this is exactly what happened between us the night I punched him after D_day no. 2 on 6 Feb. I've said it was like he was angry, and wanted to fight - so he goaded me into an argument, and then leaped at the chance to manhandle me around the kitchen, and when I reacted by punching him, he had all the justification he needed that I was the crazy, abusive one. But I was actually trying to avoid a fight and had left the room to get away from him. I knew afterwards that he had provoked me to fight, because he was angry with me and wanted to fight. He has never let me forget that punch - from someone who demands forgiveness for himself, he uses that punch against me as proof of everything he chooses to believe is wrong with me.<p>I know a lot of other people would have left my H by now, but there's a lot of good reasons why I should stay and try to heal us, especially is that is what he is trying to do. The lit I have read says it is possible to make improvements, but only if the person with BPD or the abuser, takes responsibility, and gets long-term therapy.<p>The other recommendation for people who love someone with BPD, is to learn to be detached. I guess this is what I am trying to do without losing all feelings of love for my H.<p>Odile

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Thanks, hanora, such a relief to get a response from someone.<p>I know it takes two to tango, and I'm trying to figure out how to do a different dance!<p>I really love my H and am trying to find ways to cope with him being the way he is. I think he is starting to realize that he is abusive and needs to change - like I said, he is counselling, and his family are supportive.<p>I need to learn how to change how I react to him - yes, I do get wound-up about this kind of stuff - I have to learn to just RELAAAX!<p>Another thing about BPD they said was "living in chaos". Well, we've been having work done on our house for three years and it's still not done - with no end in sight - especially since my H is distracted with his internet "buddy" - and with work - so the building works just sit there waiting for his attention. We have lived in our house for 10 years and still don't have shelving units to put things away on - the kids toys are in tubs and boxes as best I can, but these are in a mess on the floor in the upstairs rooms. Every time I say we need bookshelves or shelves, period, he says "This house is too small for more furniture!" LOL. This is so totally irrational it drives me nuts. And since he controlled all the money until recently (I started working in Sept) I couldn't do anything about it.<p>So he's gone on a business trip for a week and yesterday I went down to Homebase and bought a flat-pack pine shelving unit for the kid's bedroom and put it up myself. Looks great! And what an improvement! Since it came out so well, I'm going today to get another one. I just can't go on living in this chaos anymore. He is self-employed and doesn't even have a filing cabinet!<p>My little guy spilled the beans on the phone last night though - I wanted it to be a surprise. He asked how much they cost and I said they were £17.99 each - that's £34.00 for 2 5 shelf units - pretty darn cheap I'd say and how much is your sanity worth. He didn't say anything but I could tell he didn't like the idea of me spending that money. Now I know this guy has £500 in cash locked in his dresser drawer, so why should I have to feel defensive about spending £34 on shelves we have needed for 10 years?<p>This is the kind of stuff I mean - but I'm doing it - trying to just take charge and do what I have to do and get on with my life and get myself organized, regardless of what he is doing. Part of that means taking charge of this chaos in the house.<p>Anybody relate to this?<p>Thanks so much - hanora - sometimes it just helps to know you're not alone and that it's OK to still love this man.<p>Odile

My H too is a product of very controlling abusive parents. Father was very passive and mother was controlling. He was allowed to get his driver's license at 18. She made him take tap dancing lessons which embarrassed him beyond belief and made him dance on a local television show regularly. He could only date who they approved and he gave up excellent scholarships because he couldn't leave home. She made him lie about his age as she did too. She made him shave under his arms and told me right after we got married, "You do know that sex is a sin." Needless to say we've had problems in that area. He still has problems with lying-about stupid stuff. She modeled that behavior for him and it's about stupid stuff that noone cares about. Parents can really screw up their children!<p>When he wanted to leave home (at age 27) she told him the only way was if he bought a home. There was no way she would allow him to live in an apartment. She picked out his home and wanted to move up the street but that would entail work-she would have none of that. <p>This woman lived in filth and bathing was not regular-her husband did what little was done. She had more mirrors in her home than you could count...One whole wall in her dining room was a mirror. I've since learned about narcissism. She's classic of the extreme. She couldn't get along with anybody and lied constantly. She lived in a fantasy world and when she died there waw noone to come to the funeral. So sad.<p>H's affair began after she died-within months. xow is an exact replica of mother...controlling, mean spirited, compulsive liar. He was comfortable with that. <p>During our marriage H would not/will not allow me to ever tell him what to do. He's been very controlling of me and I took on his father's role of being passive. H developed a drinking problem before he left home and even I didn't realize it until we had been married for 5 years. He was an expert at hiding. I just thought I had done something horrible to make him mad. He's an angry drunk..no wonder.<p>I read the book "Avoiding Mr. Wrong" which explained about being a Momma's Boy. There's alot out there about personality disorders. H is improving and coming into his own. He still gets moody and I've learned to walk around it. I understand about walking on egg shells but have come the conclusion that if I refused to deal with his behavior, it stops. <p>If I had been you and my children were in the car ready to go, I would have just left. They are like children and if you don't tolerate rude behavior, they'll stop it.

amhurt,
Thanks for posting to me - I appreciate your sharing this stuff with me - <p>My H's parents behaved similarly to your MIL with their older son - he married in early 20's - they bought a house around the corner from parents - MIL used to come to house everyday and check on my SIL's housekeeping - older son and his wife were expected to still come to dinner with parents every day, even though they were now married and living in their own home. My MIL is fanatical about her food - everywhere she goes, she takes her own food - she has a repertoire of 3 things for dinner and we go through this "what's for dinner tonight" conversation day after day, always with the same answer. When my nephew bought his own house, he invited us all over for lunch - she asked "what are you having?" and by the end of the conversation, she had managed to get him to agree to let her bring all her own food - milk, ham, bread, cake, etc.
So the thing we did was let her bring her own stuff and we all just let her carry on, while we sat down to eat the nice lunch he had made for us. But that's an example of how anally controlling she is.<p>But you said something about your H's other woman that flipped a switch in my head. You said your H's OW was just like her. Well, my H has been the one to "rebel" against his parents when he was younger, by not doing what they wanted him to do for a career. But he has been trying very hard to get along with them ever since we got married - 14 yrs now. And I have never been the controlling type - I don't check up on him, I don't ask who he's with, I don't ask him what time he's going to be home, unless I have to know whether or not he's coming home for dinner - he has even gone off to Paris without letting me know which hotel he was staying in or leaving me a phone no. - first of all, I have deliberately tried not to do any of this stuff because I know how much it bugs him because of his mother, and also because I really trusted him and he always called me and let me know where he was - when he went to Paris, I knew he would call me after he got there and he did.<p>But this last OW has seemed to me to be very manipulative and one of her things is that she is the Princess and he is the Frog, and she can tell him exactly what to do, and he is not allowed to protest - I have seen shadows of this dynamic in their e-mails to each other. It has infuriated me that he would let someone exercise such control over him - it has made me very sad to see that. But I think you have given me a clue as to what might be going on here which is deeper than I thought.<p>Thank you so much,
Odile

P.S. Just got back from picking up that second flat-pack shelf unit - going to build it tonight - looked around at my house and realize the chaos is something he blames on me, even though he lives here and does jack to help keep it clean and resists all my efforts to get us organized - so this is now part of MY plan A - it's driving me crazy to live in this mess and he has never co-operated with any of my ideas to solve these mess problems so if I have to go out and buy the things I need to get it organized, that's what I've got to do - I work, i don't have to feel guilty about spending the money, especially if he is hiding so much of it AND keeping half of his salary back each month!<p>I've decided I have to get the things out of my life that he uses against me. Another thing he has started doing is leaving things up to me to do, but without telling me he expects me to do them, like RSVPing to invitations - or getting stuff on the car fixed - all stuff he used to do without asking me, now it isn't getting done and he says stuff like "well, that's something you can do, too" - yes, I agree, but it's important we TALK about it - about who's doing what and who's taking responsibility for what. I'm not sure whether this is a sign that he is letting go of having to be such a control freak, or whether it's a sign he's losing his sense of responsibility.<p>Anyone else have this?<p>Odile

I didn't have time to read all of your post but ANYTIME I see that someone thinks their H is passive aggressive I like to point this out (to add to the confusion) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] There is not much hope for Passive Aggressiveness BUT ADD (if hyperactivity is NOT present it is ADD NOT ADHD) then it CAN be treated with medication!!! Your H incident with the "tea" could be interpreted as an ADD behavior!!<p>This is a post I posted about me and my H:<p>I went to our marriage counselor today to discuss recent episodes (lies, uncaring attitudes) and that is the reason I want out of the relationship. She said that she thinks my H maybe ADD and that if it is undiagnosed can damage a marriage as well as many other self destructive behaviors. I don't know you guys, if I buy it. She said it is very hard to detect but should be explored. She said it is not my job to fix him but it may help me cope if I decide to stay in the marriage. I am soooooo confused and really not sure what to think. I am going to think and pray and learn more about it and also see how H handles the info. If he has it, he needs to be medicated and is still responsible for making behavioral changes. What I have read in the last 3 hours about it just doesn't fit completely. But there are some glaring possibilities. I just find it hard to believe in a way. <p>Here is some info I found on it:
The partner with ADD is likely to be less organized, less predictable, and less attentive than the other one. It can be easy for the non-ADD partner to misinterpret those behaviors as "not caring" or as being "passive-aggressive".......that's simply NOT TRUE in most cases! Most of the time ADD behaviors which cause problems are not malicious behaviors -- usually it's just a case of the ADD not being managed well and the person needing to learn more coping skills. It helps to keep in mind a "biological perspective" though -- that the basis for most ADD behavior is biological in nature -- it has to do with how the brain works -- and is NOT usually due to bad intentions or lack of caring! It's also easy for the non-ADD partner to become frustrated and fall into a critical/blaming mode of behavior -- that usually just makes things worse. Sit down and discuss specific behaviors which are causing problems and then make some changes in how things are done -- like any couple must do, with or without ADD. Focus on the BEHAVIOR as the problem though, not the PERSON -- very important distinction! Another problem is if the non-ADD partner becomes the "rescuer" in the relationship, and the person with ADD takes on the "helpless victim" role. This is very bad for BOTH partners involved and will only lead to more problems. The couple needs to clearly delegate responsibility for certain duties or jobs, and EACH of them has to follow through on their end without being babied or bullied by the other. The person with ADD needs to structure the environment in whatever way he/she needs to make sure that those things get done! People with ADD are not "crippled" in any sense and should never use ADD as an excuse for irresponsible behavior. If some behavior is a problem.....fix it!! Never make excuses.

Dear ILuv,
Thanks so much for posting your stuff about ADD - what exactly is ADD - how is it different from ADHD? My H has a LOT of physical energy - he fizzes with it when he's up, and can go from morning to 9PM without stopping - it's not good for him - he has digestive problems sometimes from not eating at the right times, but even as I say that, he is not at all overweight - he never seems to gain any weight - just burns it off.<p>He is also quite single-minded - I have often said he's like a steamroller when he has a goal ahead of him - he is capable of concentrating on what he has to do and getting the job done REGARDLESS of anything else happening in his life. This is one reason why he is so successful at what he does. The price I think he pays for this is that he shuts down emotionally - because it's a distraction from his job. I am also amazed that he functions without a lot of physical organization - he does have his own filing system - folders in his closet, and various boxes and drawers he keeps things in - and he always seems to keep it together for tax time - what bothers me is how he can do all that and actively prevent me from doing what I need to do to organize the rest of our lives.<p>Well - any clues are helpful to me right now - I'll check this out - one thing you said hit the nail on the head - I've always felt that my H is entirely without malice - the tea thing wasn't meant to be mean - and everything else is the same - he just doesn't seem to be thinking the same way other people do.<p>Thanks again, it's good to look at people's profiles and see "In recovery" at the bottom - so inspiring.<p>Take care,
Odile

Here are some links. <p>I mainly was interest in ADD (without the hyper) but hopefully the links will point you to ADHD. It is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. You H does sound like he has the characteristics. <p>Men And ADD/ADHD and emotions<p>ADHD and personal responsibility and traditional morals<p>AD/HD and Your Family<p>Attention Deficit Syndrome<p>Attention Deficit Disorder in Adults<p>ADD and the Family II<p>Coping styles<p>Adult ADD: The Challenge of a Lifetime <p>That should keep you busy for awhile!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

My wife has BPD and is bipolar. I'm not totally convinced of the bipolar, but I KNOW SHE HAS BORDERLINE. When I read through the criteria from the DSM she fit every category.<p>Borderline Central.Com is a great site and there also some other ones if you use a search engine under "borderline personality disorder."<p>I'm been wondering whether plan A is applicable to people with bpd because of their "push/pull" behavior. You know "I hate you, don't leave me."<p>I would appreciate anyones input on this.