That's the good news. The bad news is that his "Taker" presented the recovery plan.<p>We had a preset time to meet which was last night. His mood wasn't good. He was hostile, over burdened,petulant etc.<p>I should have called a halt before we even started.<p>Step 1 - His assignment was to layout what happened with his A and why.<p>Step 2 - He was to convey empathy to me to let me know that he understood how his actions with the A caused me to feel.<p>Step 3 - His detailed plan, rules & guidelines to prevent an A from ever happening again.<p>SH has been encouraging H to pick up the pace and get through the above recovery plan. H has started and stopped and drug this out for over 2 months because "it's been too difficult" for him.<p>As a result what has happened is that so much time passes from one attempt to the next that we end up having to go back and review previously covered material before we can go forward. This has been helpful because as I have taken notes; we have reviewed them to see if some things were said in the heat of the moment or if in fact they are true statements.<p>So last night was to be Step #3. I have been so desperate to get through this that I ignored his attitude. It was such that he completely undermined the recovery plan. We started at step #2 again; and it was the worst. Basically said what was "textbook" Harley responses, saying they were Harley answers "not his". Then he gave me his "real" answers which were disrespectful. After he finishes step #2 he tells me that at some point we have to get beyond this "He can't take it any more".<p>Now we move on to step #3. He complained that although he wrote it origionally back on 5/9/02; that SH wanted him to give it more detail before presenting to me. Fast forward to 6/24/02.<p>His "Taker" read step #3 to me. His attitude was so bad that I took no notes and made no response. What was the point.<p>We had a horrible rest of the evening and I basically didn't sleep all night.<p>This morning here is the letter I wrote to me.<p>To Me;<p>You've got to do this recovery for you. You have yourself t live with; and no one else are you responsible for or accountable to for your recovery efforts. So you once again hold yourself to a higher standard and move ahead. It worked for you before nd I know you can do it again. (meaning that I was married at 22 to an alcoholic; did EVERYTHING I could to make it work and left the marriage after he refused to stop drinking after 7 years with NO regrets or guilt). Also call SH's office to plan July appointments and make other Dr. appointments that are needed. Plan A darling; if for no one else- plan A for you. Can you Plan A and detach at the same time? It would be healthier for you. No longer count on or depend on WH for my recovery from A. He's proven to be untrustworthy. Why go there again? I am working on the healing of 2nd OW too at this point; even though H denies it is real although he admits he can see why I think there is a 2nd OW. 2 betrayals to recover from at this point. You recover for you...no one else! Do this!! You can because it's the only thing you have control of...you...not him...what he does; who he sees; what he is willing to face. That's all his stuff. It's time for me to focus on what's mine.<p>MBers, I think that letter to myself says it all. I am praying for stregnth. CSue

Hi, I understand how you feel.. hope that helps. I am trying to sched. first harley appt. and feel it might be money down the drain with my h's attitude.. but maybe I can get something good out of it? Right?<p>I know how awful it is to be married to someone who is not in the marriage with you.. my H even called himself my Exhusband recently..it was heartbreaking.<p>You can do it... keep giving and plan aing.. take care of you sweetie.. you deserve it.. by giving too much and having nothing given back to you .. you are more prone to lb., to anger.. etc. so be careful and nurture yourself.<p>H

Honey thanks,<p>I have this vision of holding hands with supportive people like you. It helps me to feel that I'm not all alone. Thank you for your kindness. CSue

CSue,
I'm sorry things didn't go as planned/wished for.
I have Steve's appat coming in a minute, so I'll come back later to comment, but did want to express my support.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>That's the good news. The bad news is that his "Taker" presented the recovery plan.<p>We had a preset time to meet which was last night. His mood wasn't good. He was hostile, over burdened,petulant etc.<p>I should have called a halt before we even started.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You're probably right on this point. However, don't feel too bad about it; it would not have changed the content of his "Plan".<p>I get the feeling Steve tries to "push" the WS into his "3-step" plan, often without really having a firm basis of committment from them, or ascertaining that they have an understanding of what this is about. I believe his idea is that things will HAVE to fall into place as the plan is implemented, because he will demand more and more, and the "realizations" pretty much have to come. I had this conversation with him today, and that is what he said. On the other hand, if he waits until they are "on-board" many of us will be left waiting forever, so I think this is the right approach.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Step 1 - His assignment was to layout what happened with his A and why.<p>Step 2 - He was to convey empathy to me to let me know that he understood how his actions with the A caused me to feel.<p>Step 3 - His detailed plan, rules & guidelines to prevent an A from ever happening again.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is standard, and exactly what he's doing with my W. My complaint and conversation this morning was about this. "OK, she's said she takes responsibility for the A", but what does that actually mean? What concrete actions has she taken/will she take to demonstrate that this is not just empty words? And so on, same with "I know I've hurt you and I'm sorry" and with "The A has ended."<p>So we talked about it a bit, I let him know I was at the end of the rope, and said that we need to start getting some things to "happen"...I can't hold on and continue to do all this work just on the basis of what are for now, to me at least, empty words.<p>He asked me to write him a list of questions for my W and to fax it to him. We'll see what happens.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
SH has been encouraging H to pick up the pace and get through the above recovery plan. H has started and stopped and drug this out for over 2 months because "it's been too difficult" for him.<p>As a result what has happened is that so much time passes from one attempt to the next that we end up having to go back and review previously covered material before we can go forward. This has been helpful because as I have taken notes; we have reviewed them to see if some things were said in the heat of the moment or if in fact they are true statements.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think this is to be expected when you have a half-committed WS...be patient! At least it's moving forward. Yes I know; slower than desired, but it's moving.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
So last night was to be Step #3. I have been so desperate to get through this that I ignored his attitude. It was such that he completely undermined the recovery plan. We started at step #2 again; and it was the worst. Basically said what was "textbook" Harley responses, saying they were Harley answers "not his". Then he gave me his "real" answers which were disrespectful. After he finishes step #2 he tells me that at some point we have to get beyond this "He can't take it any more".</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is not good. Giving you "canned" Steve responses is not what we're looking for here. Steve should address that with him. Make sure he knows this.<p>The part about "he can't take it anymore" I think is standard WS-ese...my W says the same ALL the time. If we talk about it for 1 hour per week, it's too much. Every conversation starts with that same spiel.<p>I think it's indicative of not having "gotten it"
yet, and their consequent reluctance to committ to something they are just not comfortable with yet.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Now we move on to step #3. He complained that although he wrote it origionally back on 5/9/02; that SH wanted him to give it more detail before presenting to me. Fast forward to 6/24/02.<p>His "Taker" read step #3 to me. His attitude was so bad that I took no notes and made no response. What was the point.<p>We had a horrible rest of the evening and I basically didn't sleep all night.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not good. What purpose is there in presenting a plan with reluctance and without the committment to it?<p>If this was primarily because of his "bad mood", you can try it again; but if it was his anger at being "forced" to do this, that needs to change before significant change can take place. A reluctant recovery, in my view, is no recovery at all.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
This morning here is the letter I wrote to me.<p>To Me;<p>You've got to do this recovery for you. You have yourself t live with; and no one else are you responsible for or accountable to for your recovery efforts. So you once again hold yourself to a higher standard and move ahead. It worked for you before nd I know you can do it again. (meaning that I was married at 22 to an alcoholic; did EVERYTHING I could to make it work and left the marriage after he refused to stop drinking after 7 years with NO regrets or guilt). Also call SH's office to plan July appointments and make other Dr. appointments that are needed. Plan A darling; if for no one else- plan A for you. Can you Plan A and detach at the same time? It would be healthier for you. No longer count on or depend on WH for my recovery from A. He's proven to be untrustworthy. Why go there again? I am working on the healing of 2nd OW too at this point; even though H denies it is real although he admits he can see why I think there is a 2nd OW. 2 betrayals to recover from at this point. You recover for you...no one else! Do this!! You can because it's the only thing you have control of...you...not him...what he does; who he sees; what he is willing to face. That's all his stuff. It's time for me to focus on what's mine.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is a good idea. Maybe I'll try it when I'm feeling down and hopeless!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
MBers, I think that letter to myself says it all. I am praying for stregnth. CSue </strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Hang in there, CSue; it ain't over until the fat lady sings! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Space,<p>You are so kind. You were so nice you made me cry! It must be that only those who have been where we are as BS can possibly understand. I guess it's not possible for anyone else.<p>Which is why I ??? myself why I keep expecting understanding from H. My behavior only is within my control; time to stop hitting my head up against a brick wall.<p>Problem is that I've done the same as you and 2long...Had a great day last week after appt with SH...now this. The fall seems to be longer, and farther because of how good I had been feeling. <p>I can't tell you how grateful I am for your support. Since H and I are in the "can't tell anyone" mode; there is no one else to talk to except MBers. And SH next time. I do feel like I am losing hope. H will never get it apparently. He spends he R-talk time with me rationalizing his behavior and making sure that I understand that if only I HAD MET HIS EN's, the A would never have happened. He wants to make sure that I understand that it's my fault that he had the A.<p>He'll quote "Harley Speak" when called upon, but in reality he still has his "version of the truth".<p>Which brings me full circle back to my recovery is about me, for me, by me...to the very best of my MB philosophy ability. I know what it's like to let go and move on if necessary. I just need to focus on the things I need to be learning in the meantime and let things take their natural course.<p>Thanks again. CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:<p>Hang in there, CSue; it ain't over until the fat lady sings! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote><p>Dear me! I was going to practice my newly learned editing skills; when the only sentence that popped up from your post was the one where the Fat Lady sings!! Now what's that supposed to be telling me? I'm getting quite skinny now that I've lost 15lbs over all of this!! I'll give it another try Space and see if I can pop up the rest of your post!! CSue

AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! <p>Ok, feel better now.<p>Space, why is it that when I click on the "" on your response I only get the sentence where the fat lady sings????<p>There isn't a scroll bar to the right that allows me to go up and respond to your response.<p>That's all I need right now is technical difficulties!! Sigh...CSue

All,

I plan to post an update soon because "there's more"!

However before I can do that I need to vent this!

I'm a little haunted today due to a conversation I had with someone last night at a birthday party.

My boys were practicing boxing using bag and gloves and another couple were watching. I joked that the boys needed to "picture someone" and hit away! The lady next to me said "Oh, that would be easy for me"...it would be so & so and so & so.

I said why is that?

You can almost guess the answer. It turns out that last fall she & her husband met a couple who turned out to become best friends. They were inseparable. In February the woman in the other couple told her H that she wanted a divorce. This was out of the blue. The next week the woman telling me the story said that her H told her he wanted a divorce; and would move immediately to his father's house.

She said she staked out the father's house and could tell right away that her H wasn't staying at his father's house. She and the H from the other couple put 2 & 2 together and confronted their spouses. Sure enough; they were "in love" and were leaving their spouses for each other.

The woman telling me the story said she was devastated. They had been married 14 years; the other couple 22 years. She tried to kill herself and the H from the other couple found her and took her to the hospital where she stayed for a week.

So now both divorces are pending and both couples are with the other's spouse. This is a hair raising tale for just about anyone. My H happened to be standing next to me while she was telling me all of this. He was horrified. I am sure he was worried about me telling her "my story".

I didn't; but felt such tremendous empathy for this woman. How awful. Very depressing for me on one hand; yet made me remember how grateful I am that my situation isn't that bad.

The woman said she has a great counselor and she knows she's going to survive this. I told her that her H will wake up 1 day and realize what he has done. She says she still loves him; that he is the love of her life.

I'll be back later and post my update. Just needed to exercise this story in hopes I can clear my mind. Sigh....CSue

^^^^^
bumping up while I put together my thoughts! CSue

Wow, alot has happened since I last updated this thread. Reminds me of how our decisions,actions, and behaviors today can have long lasting consequences for the future. And how if we want to live mindfully, we have to be willing to take responsibility for our actions and be able to face the consequences whether they are good or bad.

I just recently found out that my very most special friend in the world for over 23 years has been diagnosed with terminal, inoperable brain cancer. This is one of the most special, wise, worldly, intuitive,creative people you can possibly imagine. She is doing well in light of what she faces. All of her family and friends are pulling close so that she feels all of the love we can possibly give her.

Sure sheds new light on the importance of relationships in my life. I am so grateful that H & I are in recovery and doing quite well.

We are at the stage where we are writing specific plans to meet each other's EN's. They are due to SH on Monday prior to our appointment. We actually had an honest to goodness conversation that was open and honest on both of our parts in discussing the A.

During the conversation I was desperately trying to remember what I had written in my "plan" since this is H's #1 EN. I really wanted to "do it right". We were both successful in this conversation; and afterwards we gave each other great credit for having such a productive conversation.

H has been doing a super job in meeting my EN's and I have to say "IT FEELS GREAT!" I am loving it; starting to see this really work.

There's an event coming up that is a real potential problem for me that we are currently discussing and brainstorming to help me get through. My H is doing another booksigning at a local bookstore. It was at another booksigning last fall that I last made eye contact with the OW. However d-day being 3/7/02; I of course didn't know that she was an OW. Haunts me that she might show up at this booksigning. In reality I seriously doubt it; but fears aren't necessarily based on reality are they?

Also at that same book signing H did an odd thing by leaving the bookstore without telling me. We had to drive separate cars because I had to take our son to a CubScout meeting. Odd because we have never ever left someplace without saying goodbye to each other. I was stunned to find out that he left the bookstore. This all happened prior to me knowing about the A; and was part of some very strange behavior he had been acting out over the course of the past 9 months. Has to do with me thinking about another OW now that I have learned so very much.

Anyway back to the present. I'm facing this upcoming booksigning as best as I can with H's help. The other uncomfortable part is all of the adoration he gets at these events. He has become aware of his need for admiration and this feeds it greatly. Gulp! He gets letters from women asking if he is still married; and if so "Does he have a brother"?

This will be a good opportunity to see if he can follow through on step #3 of his recovery plan. I think we'll be ok! CSue

Hey, CSue!
Glad to see you're back!

I'm sorry, I just realized I never saw or answered a post from back on 6/25 about editing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
The " " function seems to sometimes work erratically, but I think that may have been corrected. I have noticed the same thing you mentioned on occasion, but not lately.

The story of the 2 couples is very scary! No matter what happens, I tyhink everyone who makes it here and learns at least part of this stuff will be much more careful about their Rs in the future. There IS hope for humanity!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It sounds like you're doing OK, and I'm very happy for you. When I read posts like these I gather new hope that one day, hopefully soon, I'LL be able to post things like that! I SO look forward to that!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Space,

I am at peace with where we are in recovery. H can see now why SH wanted him to keep at it, working on the recovery plan because it had to come first before any real healing could begin.

It is nice to have a copy of his step #3 so that I can see what it is he plans to do in the future. I even asked him if he planned to review his plan so that he can make sure he stays on track. Point being that I didn't think my job was to police his effort for him.

He assured me that he knew it was his responsibility. We're both optimistic. He is actually reading stuff on this website;however he is terrified of this forum still.

I think he would be helpful to others should he decide to start posting. It would change my dynamic somewhat especially if I told him my login, however my dream for the future is that we review my posts together. It would be one way for him to truly understand how it feels to be me.

We'll see what the future holds.

We have quite a journey ahead of us; but I am grateful we're both in it together. My visual for this is us walking together holding hands applying MB Principles - making our marriage work for us as individuals, as a couple, and as a family.

Glad I can offer you a view of what could be. Hope I don't jinx myself!! CSue