I still can not post what is going on out of reverence, but I have something on my mind. Most of you probably are aware of this and in many respects so am I, but it feels so real for me so here it is:<p>Infatuation, hormones, or Love (however you may word it) is very very strong in the beginning part of a relationship and this multiplies the simple actions of love. For example, if OM gives heather flowers OM love units deposited 10,000, if any other person gives her flowers 100 units, if I give her flowers 1 unit.

Hi dreamland,
I think you're right about this - if I compliment my H on something he does that I think is wonderful, I think I am given 5 points - if OW compliments him on the same thing, he gives her 50 points and forgets that I ever said anything. I think its called "swiss cheese" brain - their brains have holes in certain places - the BS has no idea where the holes are - those hormones drill new holes every time he sees the OW, talks to her on the phone, or e-mails. I am beginning to see why no-contact is so important.<p>In my case, I can't even begin to talk to my H about where he thinks things have gone wrong between US, let alone try to approach the subject of his "privacy" and how much contact with OW is hurting me and our R - so I just don't know what to do. If we didn't have kids, I would have plan B'd and stuck to it 6 months ago, but since we have kids, and I am unable to support us, and my H does not make enough to support 2 households, I know that we would be in dire straits if I insisted that he leave.<p>I am trying to persevere through the counselling experience, but I guess that's just getting started, even though he has had 2 months of sessions.<p>I am just trying to focus on my own life as if I were already alone. I have found a course for an MA in the field I want to go into, and my boss is supportive of me and is going to try to get me some funding from my employers for this since they are an employer which supports further training in your field. So 2-3 years down the road from now, I could be fully qualified in my field and able to get a full-time job. Working full-time is not actually what I ever wanted to do while I had children at home - so that will be a difficult decision when it comes. But at least it will make it possible to have some control over my life and be able to say I don't have to live like this any more if my H doesn't put his money where his mouth is.<p>I put up 2 pine shelf-units yesterday in the kid's bedroom - they look great and I did it all myself. That's a way of taking control of the chaos in my house, so I feel good about that.
Don't need H to do all these things for me - he seems to think he's indispensible.<p>H is coming home tonight - been away for a week. I am not feeling very happy about it - nervous. See counselor on Friday, though - so at least have a "talk" session coming up that I can aim for if things go wrong.<p>Sorry to take up time on your thread.<p>I think this is an important point you raise here - maybe others have thoughts on how to get around this.<p>Take care,
Odile

I absolutely agree with your observation! It also works in a negative fashion. You do a minor LB and it counts 1000 points against you, wheras an OP can prove themselves a complete failure...and it's the situation, or timing, or something else...so they're only docked a mere 10-100 points (depending on timing etc..)<p>Don't sweat that...it's NOT about scores right now. It's in the END when it all counts. Believe me, hubby gave small efforts towards romancing me earlier on in our ordeal...and they were pathetic to me...actually made me madder. BUT...when my head finally pulled out of my butt...I was able to look back and go...geeze, you know he WAS trying...and all you did was throw a temper tantrum. Honestly he hasn't even done nearly the flower giving or romancing he did THEN and I am extrememly appreciative of what he DOES do now. Just proves it's not the so much the gift as the thought involved. Gotta work on getting him a bit more exhuberant at it all...but all in time [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>OM is a slimeball and has major issues...these will come in to play...he will crash and burn. Hopefully your wife is wise enough to see this before she goes down with him.

What I have realized is that no matter what I do, no matter who I am, no matter how much support, love or needs I meet for her, nothing will change her feelings about me as long as the affair is still going on and as long as she does not open her heart again to me.<p>All this talk about fogs and being blinded is a gross misinterpretation of reality. I believe we try to use the "fog" as a way of explaining what appears to be irrational behavior. My WW was not acting irrationally at all. Our WS's are not animals and are truly guided by day-to-day decisions not by emotions. The decision my WW has made is to spend the rest of her life with the OM. This commitment is what she needed in order to open her heart and body to the OM. This commitment was made long before D-day early on in the relationship. This commitment to OM guides her decisions and how she is operating. She is not in a fog, we are. We are trying to say that they are acting irrational and have irrational behavior. <p>In my attempts to do a good Plan A, I looked for favorable signs. Anything and everything is analyzed to determine WW feelings for me. In reality, there is no commitment to me. WW has already made a decision. WW is just waiting for the right time and waiting for me to leave. <p>I think that we are the ones that are fantasizing and dreaming for something that does not exist. The only thing keeping us together is that I have not left and the OMW has not let go.<p>All relationships start out with the same love that is in an affair and should not be lessoned or overlooked as a "fog". This is very very real. The reasons why the affairs normally do not last are because in the beginning just before the commitment the individuals engaged in the affair are not experiencing real life together. They are not going through the ups and downs in life like a normal relationship. Since adversities in life bring out a person's true self, neither party is able to see the true person. The individuals commit to each other prematurely because they have created a relationship, which is isolated from life and is intense. They truly look perfect to each other because there is no adversity to test each other. When real life begins to creep in very very slowly it is all too late. They are committed to each other forever and are willing to gloss over a good portion of each other’s imperfections.<p>Well, where does that leave me? I do not see this all as gloom and doom. I know that sooner or later the affair will end in this case. I just hope that it is not two years down the road. Once life has shown each other their true colors, I am hopeful it will end. I love my wife deeply and I am willing to wait it out. I just am not sure how long I can take just being a friend considering how much I truly love her. This is a very agonizing state, to love and not be loved. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

I disagree Dreamland...I think you are over emotionalizing it yourself. Just like her thoughts are primarily emotion driven...yours are right now too. So what if she has made a decision? YOU know it's based on smoke and screens. I decided H and I were over LONG ago...actually almost divorced him. Things change. You need to re-focus on you again...and leave WW to dig her own hole. You may lose your marriage, you may not...but you can choose whether or not YOU get lost in the process.

Thanks Hope.<p>You are right about the LB's as well. I can LB her just by not smiling at the right time. I can LB in her mind without doing anything wrong. I got yelled at the other morning for feeding my littlest one formula too late in the morning (4:00 AM). Her milk supply is running low and she blamed this on me. More likely it has to do with stress and baby's age (6 months) and him not really wanting to nurse anymore. I know she means no harm to me. She means no harm to me in all of this. The hurt and pain just goes with the teratory. LOVE SUCKS. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>Thanks hope for the kick in the butt. I needed that. I guess I am trying to divorce myself from the situation (no punn intended). I truly want to believe in this fog stuff. I truly want to, but I can't. It hurts to bad to hope right now. Even at this point right now where everything could turn around, I am scared to hope. OM could do just one thing and wipe out all the doubts.<p>Do you really think that she can love me again? Can I possibly ever make her feel the way the OM made her feel? What do you think? IS PASSION AS STRONG AS INFATUATION (passion in marriage and infatuation new relationship).

Oh yeah, affairs are great. If he sticks his hands in her pants, it's because she loves him. If I do that, it's because I want to have sex. There's definitely a multiplication factor going on that is entirely contextual to how the WS is feeling at that exact moment in time about herself, her lover, her husband, and her life situation. <p>What's even better is that she gets to go to her lover when she's thinking about him in a good way, where the betrayed spouse is there to get dumped on 24x7.

dreamland:<p>"What I have realized is that no matter what I do, no matter who I am, no matter how much support, love or needs I meet for her, nothing will change her feelings about me as long as the affair is still going on and as long as she does not open her heart again to me."<p>This is the bottom line. So long as the WS is getting needs met by the OP, YOU CAN'T meet those needs. The WS won't let you. My WW wouldn't let me meet her needs during and even for the first 5 months after she thought she'd ended her A (but she hadn't, the EA continued). EVEN when I pointed this out to her, she denied it was the case. Apparently I was just that much of a jerk. Well, 3 months later, we're getting along better than we have in 12 years. What changed? Well, for one I'm doing a good plan A now (finally!), but more importantly the fog is lifting and she is seeing things more clearly. Really, much of our family/house situation has not changed, and the house situation is far from improving (it may be a year or more before it's finished), so the only thing that has obviously changed is her thinking and thus her attitude.<p>Mrs dreamland is in a fog, alright. She doesn't think so, OM doesn't think so, and even you may not think so. But does she really think she'll be one of the "lucky" 3% of affair couples that survive beyond the 2 year mark?<p>Good luck, Mrs. dreamland. YOU'LL NEED IT.

Dreamland you VERY BADLY need to read Passionate marriage. You are extrememly emotionally fused. You are taking HER actions and reactions and making them about you. Will you ever be good enough, will she ever love you again...etc etc... It's NOT ABOUT YOU! You are loveable and would make someone in the right state of mind very happy...just the way you are RIGHT NOW. The fact that she isn't acting towards you the way you want has NOTHING to do with how loveable you are...it has to do with HER. And the answer to all your questions is a resounding YES...if she chooses the right path she can and will love you fully again. But that time is not right now.<p>I will tell you...my husband went through a major "poor me" spell, as did the OM...and each time I ran full tilt the other direction. Plan A is about becoming strong and emotionally healthy. The benefit is FOR YOU, but it also creates an atmosphere that a WS finds very comfortable to be in. I had NO DESIRE to stroke egos and assure ANYONE that everything was going to be ok, when I didn't feel ok myself. She needs STRENGTH from you...if not for her, then for yourself. It's a HUGE LB to pout around feeling sorry for yourself.<p>DO NOT get me wrong...you have every right to feel jilted and hurt (as did both hubby and OM in my situation). I'm saying what good does that do you? In the long run...none. You might consider a mild antidepressant for a little while...and AGAIN I stress...do something for yourself. Go fishing or go out with a buddy for lunch...something. There is NO EXCUSE why you can't fit that in...you can. And it will do a world of good for your attitude, which will do a world of good for your situation. TRUST ME, I know from wence I speak.

Man, can I RELATE to the situation where the OP gets to see the cream of the crop while the BS breaks his or her back to till the soil, pull the weeds, and then only gets a few rotten tomatoes to show for it! Not only that, the OP gets to pluck the ripest fruits and enjoy a gourment dinner too.<p>There's nothing like working a 10 hour day (to earn twice+ what OM was making), coming home to assist WW with child-rearing until 9:00pm, followed by an hour working on HER business, take out the trash, and THEN witnessing her leaving the house to be with OM for the rest of the evening. OM has no kids, no committted R, so he could just kick back and be on his best behavior to deposit 1000's of love units when WW came around!

Dreamland,<p>I hope you don't mind my jumping in here. Your post hit home for me as a ws. You are right on nearly every point. However, I think it's worth mentioning that the points that you receive while the affair is going on v. the amount of points that get tallied later on are quite different. I did go back and remember what H did that at the time seemed to mean very little compared to actions of OM. I think it is very difficult if not impossible for ws's to feel the romantic love that we feel for OP for 2 people simulatenously. Thus the feeling of being in-love with OP and still loving our spouses. You are not unloved. Your WW is struggling with this I'm very sure. Trying to control her own feelings and not let them have a life of their own.<p>Its true, A's do allow the OP to look better longer because the realities of daily life do not normally present until much later in the relationship. However, what is seen by candlelight is not seen the same by day. <p>Over time, the "safety" of the affair relationship works against the couple because the pressures of the affair: the longing, secrets, jealously and the frustrations that come with the hiding or attempt at controlling the feelings and OP's inevitable unavailablity, do force OP and WS's to show their ugly sides. This is where the doubts come in and when WS begins to wonder if this OP is really the one for them, if they are worth leaving the M for. <p>You have an amazing insight. Your wife is truly fortunate that you are as understanding and patient as you are. In my experience, the only thing that would have knocked some sense into me at the height of my love affair when I thought that OM hung the moon, would have been if my H left. All the attempts to score points was wasted at the time but as the OP began to show a side of self I was not impressed with, H would not have had to leave me. I thought back and made my comparison's and I started to tally up all those mis-applied points and began to look at both H and OM in daylight and see them for who they really were. Not who I wanted them to be.<p>I'm the first one to admit that ending an A, even with a OM who was not perfect and did not meet all of my needs, was the most difficult challenge of my life thus far. I wish I had definitive suggestions for how to help facilitate this if the WS is not ready or willing to do so but I do not. <p>I wanted to tell you that I admired you for your insight about what affairs really are and that it is not fog at all. You have a great advantage to have such an understanding and although your WW seems stuck right now in her A, glossing over the imperfections as you say, that can not last forever. Eventually, something has to break. You say that the only thing that is keeping you together is that both you and OMW have not let go. Why do you feel this way? You would be very surprised how some of ws would react to our marriages ending. Even just the perceived threat can rally us.

Dreamland - <p>I know we have had this discussion before but I thought I would repeat some things again (they kind of go with what Hope had to say). The day I started feeling better was not when my antidepresents kicked in, but the day I decided to do something for myself. This was the day I made the appointment to see someone about how I was feeling. Ever since that day I have known that I do have control over my life, how I feel, and how I react. It wasn't about detaching from the situation but about coping with it. I have never increased my dose since I started feeling better (I don't even notice a difference beyond my changed attitude).<p>I'm not telling you that this is what you need. What I am trying to tell you is that you need to do some things for yourself. These types of things will help clear you mind and make you stronger for the road ahead.<p>
As for the point you make in this thread, the falicy is that you are trying to show the A as not impacted by emotions, hormones, etc. and is logical. I agree that the WS is making a conscious decision but it is not without the influence of these other factors. Just like your thougths and actions are not influenced but your emotions.

I am very strong around my wife. My wife leans on me for support and tells me all of her feelings now. She asks for my advice on everything. I come here to unload all of this. I rarely ever show her my sadness. She for the most part, sees a very strong level headed person. I never am angry with her and I never do any LB'ing. This is why she feels comfortable talking with me about everything. I show her I appreciate the information and give her valuable advice on the situation. Like going back to work, like finding out what OM is really like, etc... <p>We talk about the OM almost every day (she initiates the conversation). She tells me how much she loves him, how they are planning their lifes together, they see each other once a week with the kids and talk around 10 to 15 hours a week. This has been going on for months and it is a living hell for me. I hold all of my pain in and (except now she can read this stuff, but I do not think she is reading my posts anymore)for the most part I am able to even feel good some of the time, but I think about this stuff around 80% of my waking time. I am just a good friend to her now.<p>The OM does not give her flowers, or thoughtful gifts, or any of the typical romance stuff. I am much better and was much better in the romance department than OM. I know all of this stuff has nothing to do with me. I know all of this has nothing to do with the OM. All of this has to do with my WW, and that is what bothers me so and makes me feel so much pain.<p>I am happy for everyone that is able to deal with this and live a normal life even though their life is not normal. I wish I could do this. I have tried this many many times and it is short lived and I fall on my face. I am going to face this problem and work on it till the end in my mind and in my heart. I did do something this past weekend. I helped my friend build a deck. I brought all my tools (nailguns, saws, etc. you know all the cool guy stuff) and we had a very enjoyable day. It felt good. I will continue to do things like this.<p>I appreciate all the support and advice I get here. I would be really having a hard time without all of you.

Mr Dream...you...YOU...do have some control over your life. I know your wifes ridiculous behaviour is obviously a major factor in why you feel the way you feel...but I think another is your lack of feeling any control over the situation. I know EXACTLY what onward is speaking about...I felt the same way when I finally took some control over me. Things got exceptionally better after I finally made that realization.<p>Your Plan A at this point is not working right. It's supposed to be about YOU for YOU...not just about putting on a show for wife. It doesn't help that she knows about this site and Plan A now, either. Now she can be a cake-eater because she knows what you're doing and why. As far as she's concerned, she's got you hook-line-and sinker...on the back burner just in case this other foolishness doesn't work out...which it won't.<p>Don't think you've got to just hang around in misery waiting for the axe to fall...you can make decisions too. You shouldn't require your wifes approval and love of you in order to feel good about yourself and your life. I realize it helps...but it's NOT the main ingredient.

Hm...<p>And if Mrs D knows about this site and plan A, then she knows about plan B and DV, too. Does she realize that at some point, possibly in the not-too-distant future, people on this thread are likely to start giving Mr D advice on when and how to implement plan B?<p>I hope she does.

All of you are right as usual.<p>I need to shake this loose. I need to step back and re-focus on Plan A. I need to read SAA again and take some time for myself.<p>My wife is going out tonight with some work friends, may see OM at party. I am going out to eat with my Mom, Dad, and Boys. Barbecue!!<p>I am determined to feel better.<p>Thanks everyone.

Boy, what I wouldn't do for some good barbecue. You know ever since I moved back up north this has been big problem (along with the lack of sweet tea). Enjoy some good food for me [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>She tells me how much she loves him, how they are planning their lifes together, they see each other once a week with the kids and talk around 10 to 15 hours a week. This has been going on for months and it is a living hell for me. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dreamland - <p>I perfectly see where you are coming from. This time around I cant give you any advice here... but let me strongly empathise with you, because everything you write rings a big bell.<p>Your theory about Love being a Credit-multiplier is just soooo true: WW is currently learing to drive; when I drive with her to get practice, SHE is getting mad at me and SHE is blaming me when SHE is not finding her way, or almost crashing the car. She told me that when that happened with OM, they both had a great giggle. Giggle, my a**.<p>Also, what you write about who is the one in the fog.... you may or may not be right. I hope you are wrong on that. But it may not matter. The important thing is that YOU are beginning to feel better, the others are right on that point I guess. (Dont take me as a shining example on that.... sometimes I succeed however. Sport helps me a lot. Want to take up Karate & boxing... just kidding)<p>Take care,
Nick

Thanks Nick,<p>I know who I would want to box with first!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Just kidin'. I think the whole fog idea is real in a sense, it just is a bad word to describe what really is going on which is active decisions based entirely upon emotion and fantasy.

Hello,<p>Very interesting thread-and so true-mostly this is addressed to Odile.
Odile-I am right where you are. Beginning to redo rooms and work with my children to regain a happy life. It has been such a painful time the last 18 mos. for my family and myself-and husband wants to stay right where he is at. Well, i am moving on. No more sadness and me consuming myself with how i can plan A or not, children left in the dust while i struggle to get a WH to right himself around. My kids are going to have as happy a life as God and i can provide. Financially we cannot be separate or i will probably lose our home. Should that happen, it will be because he abandoned us. I am getting counsel for support to know how to help my children deal with things and to work on me, have a support. We are ADCO and i am dealing with those issues, always have been. I am completely detaching until he shows he is ready to invest in us, if he ever does. Right now i feel he is choosing not do anything for his wife and family, "fog" or not. He is chatting and pursuing women online-unless there is an active affair i am missing somewhere also. This is a choice he has made. He knows what he is doing is wrong and is destroying his family. I believe the fog would be typically referred to as "sin". Example:<p>I went to NY this weekend with older son to see my parents, went to a concert as well. Tried to have a happy weekend although daughter sobbed and begged me not to leave her here with him. We kept in touch through my Dad's AOL messenger. She did a great job while I was gone. Husband took my absence to go out and get his ear pierced. But also took 18 yr., encouraging him to do his as well. Although son was asked to wait until he moved on his own to have it done, younger brothers watching here, he'd respect that-until this weekend.
But our marriage has a powerful strike against it that i can do nothing about. I believe this is the determining factor everything in our M. Just the other day I discovered info here on MB about what is referred to as conflict avoidance. This is my husband-all 170 lbs of him. It does not matter the situation-but you can imagine-how will we work anything out if he avoids conflict!!! Think about that for a moment......any angle...books....tapes...websites...letters... never mind face-to-face conversation.....anything that smacks of resolving anything he is unable to take on. All it ever is is a one-sided discussion. There is no discussion. He just looks at me-shrugs his shoulders and says "I don't know". Or turns around and walks away. There is no trying to resolve things. He might as well be dead. I have viewed this response with anger and disdain-irresponsibility on his part until now. But there is nothing I can do to help him. The decision must be his. So, until then we are where we are. I must move on. He went to one counseling appt. a few months ago and never went back. I am left no alternative but to assume all responsibilty for the children's lives, as i have in the past. Excepting the fact that he always had the fun, (no responsibility-me enabling)got to play with them while I handled the drudgery. No more. I'm going to play with them andhelp them manage their lives. And I am going to be happy, cope as well as possible-deal with the curves as they come my way.
My heart is much lighter, my attitude toward life much better. I am no longer the victim. His decisions are his. Mine mine. I know my God is by my side and will be there always. He will get us through this most heartbreaking time in our lives.
For the first time in months I am feeling strong. I will continue to pray for my husband. We want him back. It will entail some tough integration back into the family. I am teaching the children not to burn bridges, but to deal with things as they come along. But I am determined to be happy again. They deserve to be happy. The overwhelming sadness has ended. Now I'm going to my garden! I love it! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It is a hot and sunny day! Maybe the kids and I will go swimming later!