Jeez...you'd think these triggers would stop being so...impacting.<p>Today marks the 10th month since DDay #1, and from the moment I turned the alarm clock off I just kept seeing that card from the OM and the photograph of OM holding my WW...the skirt she was wearing...the stool I threw flying through the air, hitting the wall...this sucks!<p>And thinking back, where we were, where we are...I know we've made progress, but it doesn't FEEL like it much. All I can think of is that no matter what we've done, what we've accomplished, the A continues...<p>I wonder if someday I will feel that I'm number one for her; I really wonder if it'll ever be.

I hear you.<p>{{{{{Spacecase}}}}}<p> <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

Tell your wife how you feel without LB.<p>Example:<p>"Honey, I love you and I thank God that you are doing your part and going through counseling with me. I'm really having a hard time today with triggers. I am feeling insecure in our marriage today. I realize you are working towards our marriage recovery and I appreciate the effort you have been putting into it. But can you give me some words of reassurance that you are committed to working on our marriage? just so that I can hear you say it."<p>I realize SH asked you to put your feelings out there with no expectation. But sometimes I don't think they know what to do with it and they need direction. Whenever you share you feelings you should cushion it with compliments - see how I complimented her before and after sharing the feelings.

SC:<p>Wow!! Three threads!!! My hat's off to you, man!<p>As to your post. You HAVE made progress, it IS different. Take another look. You said it yourself.<p>Perspective!<p>Try to think of this another way. Would you really feel better if you were to go to plan B NOW? I know you've said many times that you're ready, and that's a good spot to be in personal-development-wise. But do you WANT to be separated? Do you need to be? Or can you hang in and help your W evolve?

I agree with I LuvNprotect ME. <p>Just ask her to help. W and I have talked about this. Some days I need help knowing she loves me, some days she needs to know that I am not going to LB about a bad mistake she made. We go to each other, explain how we are feeling and ask for help. We talk, we help each other. We give re-assurance that we are progressing. Just hearing the other give positive re-inforcement is a big lift. <p>I suppost this came about because of a frank talk about it one day. I just explained to her about how we would both have down days and we needed a way to bring each other out of it without it turning into a bad thing. We agreed that we did love each other and we could just go to the other and ask, and give if asked. It works for us. <p>Try it, you'll like it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>SS

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>Tell your wife how you feel without LB.<p>Example:<p>"Honey, I love you and I thank God that you are doing your part and going through counseling with me. I'm really having a hard time today with triggers. I am feeling insecure in our marriage today. I realize you are working towards our marriage recovery and I appreciate the effort you have been putting into it. But can you give me some words of reassurance that you are committed to working on our marriage? just so that I can hear you say it."<p>I realize SH asked you to put your feelings out there with no expectation. But sometimes I don't think they know what to do with it and they need direction. Whenever you share you feelings you should cushion it with compliments - see how I complimented her before and after sharing the feelings.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'll have to think about this ILuv...I'm afraid if I even MENTION dday it'll be a freak show!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>Wow!! Three threads!!! My hat's off to you, man!<p>As to your post. You HAVE made progress, it IS different. Take another look. You said it yourself.<p>Perspective!<p>Try to think of this another way. Would you really feel better if you were to go to plan B NOW? I know you've said many times that you're ready, and that's a good spot to be in personal-development-wise. But do you WANT to be separated? Do you need to be? Or can you hang in and help your W evolve?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>2L; I know: I've made progress, I've learned, I'm a better husband/person, more relationship-enabled than I ever was, more aware of things.
Problem is, she's not...so even though I know we've made progress, I'm almost more convinced now than ever that it'll be almost impossible to rebuild based on Harley principles; I feel there are too many she will just not embrace or practice.<p>Also, I'm afraid of what I might find If I look. My heart says "please, please let there be no contact with the OM..." but if there isn't, which is what we're all hoping for, I'm afraid it'll be worse; because that will all but confirm the existence of a second OM, or something else that is going on that I can't even imagine...so it feels like there's no way to win...very sad and depressing.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>Tell your wife how you feel without LB.<p>Example:<p>"Honey, I love you and I thank God that you are doing your part and going through counseling with me. I'm really having a hard time today with triggers. I am feeling insecure in our marriage today. I realize you are working towards our marriage recovery and I appreciate the effort you have been putting into it. But can you give me some words of reassurance that you are committed to working on our marriage? just so that I can hear you say it."<p>I realize SH asked you to put your feelings out there with no expectation. But sometimes I don't think they know what to do with it and they need direction. Whenever you share you feelings you should cushion it with compliments - see how I complimented her before and after sharing the feelings.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ILuv;
I just wanted to say that I've been reading a lot of your recent posts, and you have a "gift" of interpreting this WS/BS behavior which seems almost uncanny...you can dissect a conversation or an interaction into the "pure" relationship exchange that is being played out...amazing!<p>I wish I could be even 10% as intuitively aware of what these things mean as you are! Can you do the same with your R, or is it easier when you're looking in from the outside?

Hey Space - <p>Some have said that it takes about half as long to get out of this mess as the process you took to get in it. In my case, that's about 4 - 5 years of mutual neglect and wall building. That means 2 - 3 years of rebuilding. Just remember, you can only control one thing. Yourself and your actions. But your actions include the environment you choose to be in. In my case, I've made it clear that I choose not to be in an environment were only one person is trying to fix a broken marriage. Fortunately for me, that means we are both working on the M. Sometimes at a good pace, and sometimes slooooowly! But forward progress is always needed IMHO. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take Care and continue to work on YOU! That is all you really can do.<p>Gib

its easier to see on the outside.<p>me and my H have been kinda stuck on something we have been struggeling with for a looong time and that is: looking in each others eyes.<p>When we first tried it (relationship rescue chapter 8 I think gives excercises). In September!<p>I sabotaged the efforts. I started a huge arguement and walked out. Then I continued to fight with my H. There was a war going on within me and I couldn't figure out what was going on...the bottom line is I didn't want to do it. BUT I didn't want to be the one who didn't want to do it. So I blamed him, picked a fight.<p>I think the big thing that has helped me is self-awareness. To ask myself WHY am I doing this, why am I acting this way, why am I responding this way? What is honestly the underlying issue that is causing this? It is HARD to do. It is easier to be angry and come from a position of control and pride then it is to be vulnerable and come from a position of weakness/neediness and humbleness. I also journal what I WANT to say to H and then translate it into what is appropriate to say to H, what will cause healing and be for the better of our marriage. For example, your first post you could express your feeling this way: "Today is the 10th month of DDAY #1. You don't care, nothing has changed, you think your so hot in your skirt and with your smug look on your face and your still seeing him, I'm not stupid." All true, your feelings are important and NEED to be expressed but expressing it that way would not be healing and for the better of your marriage.<p>Thanks for your encouraging words SC. I see how much you have grown with Self-control. Its like we learn to be so good at self-control but then we are no longer needing our partner in the marriage which is what caused this battle to begin with!!!! there must be a balance. We are all looking to attain the balance. We go from the extreme needy to the extreme NOT needy to the point where our partner feels we don't need them. <p>You got me on a roll SC. Thanks for your encouraging words. Keep up the good work!

You're wonderful, ILuv! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I wish I could somehow jump out of my structured, left-brained, neanderthal, caveman thinking and just "feel"...it's SO hard for me; most of the time I'm not even AWARE that there IS something happening underneath the conversation, the interaction...much less when it's me in it!<p>Funny how life is...when I was a teenager I wrote poetry, incredibly beautiful love letters, just all this "feeling" stuff...and today, I can't even perceive these things...<p>You wouldn't consider phone-counseling, would you? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Spacecase:<p>Go to plan B, 10 months seems lot of patience, what are you trying to achieve, honestly you are meeting her EN's and she knows that she can lean on you as long as she wants, she cannot have both.<p>be brave man and go to plan B, give it a time limit say 3 months or so and than continue to D...<p>just being honest!
thelion

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You wouldn't consider phone-counseling, would you?<hr></blockquote><p>Wouldn't it be great if we could get paid for posting!!!! With me at 694 posts I would be rich (PLUS my former name has a bunch of posts!)<p>Better for you would be to get paid for the number of words in your post!!!!!! You would be a millionaire...make that a gazillionnaire!!!!!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong><p>Wouldn't it be great if we could get paid for posting!!!! With me at 694 posts I would be rich (PLUS my former name has a bunch of posts!)<p>Better for you would be to get paid for the number of words in your post!!!!!! You would be a millionaire...make that a gazillionnaire!!!!!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Are you trying to tell me something? Like "SC; you're too wordy!" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ahhh...I didn't know you changed identities on us...this is sounding fishy to me... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Spacecase:<p>Go to plan B, 10 months seems lot of patience, what are you trying to achieve, honestly you are meeting her EN's and she knows that she can lean on you as long as she wants, she cannot have both.<p>be brave man and go to plan B, give it a time limit say 3 months or so and than continue to D...<p>just being honest!
thelion</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Lion; I appreciate the input. I also read some of your thread and understand how you feel.<p>Thing is...going to Plan B (or any other action we BSs take in regards to our M) is not about being "brave"; it's not even about not "letting her have both"; it's about doing what is positive for the M, the R, and for ourselves.<p>Perhaps the time will come for me to go to Plan B; if you've read my threads you know this; it's just not time yet. We're close; I'll grant you that; but it's not the right time yet.

Maybe I should ask this on the original thread...I just hate to "hijack" someone else's thread, especially someone I haven't really interacted with...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>from Terrified's "Okay, I know "WE" are over...but can you kiss me just one more time?" thread<p><strong>ILuv: They keep coming back to put their feelers out. In my case my H kept coming back BUT it wasn't until he thought I moved on and no longer wanted him that he came back full force willing to do whatever it takes to have me again.
Just something to think about...<p>Lexxxy: When you interact with him -- its perfect plan A. But when he looks at your actions, he sees "moving on".</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ILuv; I "hijacked" this line of yours, and Lexxxy's line, from Terrified's thread...very though-provoking lines for me. <p>See, I'm at home, with her, in the middle of Plan A, and I've sometimes wondered about this very point you make here.<p>So here's the question; do you think this type of "moving on" action/impression can be done while at the same time being at home, with daily interaction, and being very loving and kind in Plan A?<p>If so, how?<p>Or are we really only able to do this by going to Plan B?

SC,<p>Out of curiosity, what do you think is keeping your WW around if she's still having the affair? Is it just to enjoy the cake while stringing you along (perhaps to test your limits--to "make" her stop by you threatening to leave (what I believe was part of my wife's real agenda)), or is she agonizing over what path to take--him or you? Or are you just not sure due to her lack of openness? Sorry if I haven't had time to read your posts where that's explained.<p>A wife who does not provide key information out of consideration to you and then you living with that 24X7 is almost as bad as finding out and thinking about the details. Good luck space. At least my wife has landed, although it's been a crashlanding.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mark2002:
<strong>SC,<p>Out of curiosity, what do you think is keeping your WW around if she's still having the affair? Is it just to enjoy the cake while stringing you along (perhaps to test your limits--to "make" her stop by you threatening to leave (what I believe was part of my wife's real agenda)), or is she agonizing over what path to take--him or you? Or are you just not sure due to her lack of openness? Sorry if I haven't had time to read your posts where that's explained.<p>A wife who does not provide key information out of consideration to you and then you living with that 24X7 is almost as bad as finding out and thinking about the details. Good luck space. At least my wife has landed, although it's been a crashlanding.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wish I had an answer for that Mark; but I don't.<p>My W's "overt" position is that "The A is over, it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't affect us, move on, I want to be here, married to you, and I want our M to work out. I love you"<p>Now, I've pondered this very point many, many times and I have numerous theories about it, but no real concrete evidence or other strong indication for any of them.<p>I have always suspected that there is something she's "waiting for" to just give me the boot. What that is, I haven't a clue. Maybe her OM's appeal/parole, maybe enough money to feel safer leaving me, maybe our younger kids getting out of HS...I don't know, but I have had a VERY strong feeling that many of the things she's done; hiding the ongoing A (there have been over 7 ddays), the never-ending lies (she continues to do many secretive things), going to counseling, etc. have all been "delaying" tactics.
Why do I think this? because at the same time as all of these apparently pro-M things are going on (Being here, counseling, more SF, etc.), there are many things she does that just don't mesh with being committed to fixing the M; making an effort to meet my ENs, disclosing details of the A, the end, etc., doing a thorough job with assignments Steve has given her, showing more interest in learning and understanding, etc. etc.<p>Lately, after many months of a pretty decent Plan A, I heva had this feeling less and less, but the reality is that in many ways, there are still too many things about the A that have not been discussed at all, so maybe she has us exactly where she wants us. I don't know.<p>Perhaps soon I will have some answers. I hope they are the ones I'm looking for.

Now I understand and relate to your situation better. Your intuition and common sense sounds good.<p>You see, a few weeks ago my wife notified me to say that she was "planning to end it". But no time limit was given. After notifying me of this she then proceeded to go on an in-your-face date with him. After that, her opinion of his character was then starting to turn sour, and she was reassuring me that it would soon be over. Wow, now that sounds great, right? Wrong. Why? Her mood had NOT significantly changed...no (impending) withdrawal symptoms! Reality had NOT arrived.<p>Anyway, by that time she was seeing him rather infrequently--as far as I could tell. E-mail...well, a different matter. But, the REAL end started last week when I put my foot down after catching an e-mail (benign). Well, I sort of did. I leveled a veiled threat that my departure would be seriously entertained--I did warn her, in writing, a couple months back that my patience would eventually run out.<p>So, seeing the writing on the wall, she fired off a NC letter only to be a bit shocked to find out (i think) OM was rather willing to oblige. After all, my Plan A was good and she was more trouble to him than it was worth. ANYWAY, I knew that the REAL end had taken place because the next day she fell into a withdrawal depression and turned to medication.<p>Yes, it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings, when the cows come, or when the chickens come home to roost. Over is OVER!!!

Mark;
You have to watch her carefully now...many will go back to the OM when in withdrawl. Support her, give her lots of loving, let her know you are aware that this is hard for her...this is a critical moment and she will need all the support you can give her.<p>As a side note; I wrote my W a letter a couple of months back where I clearly stated that I would be patient but that my patience was running out. It had no apparent effect. I don't think she believes it's possible I'd leave (Plan B).<p>And one of the CLEAR signals the A has not ended (as she has stated on many occasions) is that there has been no sign of withdrawl at all.<p>I know where I stand. It's not pretty, it's not what I'd like, but it's the cards I've been dealt and I'm playing them as best I can.<p>Glad for you Mark; stay close, stay strong, give her all the love you've got! If you help her thru this difficult time, she'll ALWAYS remember that.