Space,

Wow, I haven't been around since 6/28/02, and I've just caught up on your thread.

You are inspiring...You are doing beautifully. It gives me strength too. I can't wait until the day that you post down the road that WW knows and appreciates all that you have done to make you and your M so much better.

And you have acknowledged your responsibility for the state of your relationship, and look at all the work you have done to make you a better person for her to be married to.

You have reached a "higher state of being". Csue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

Wow, I haven't been around since 6/28/02, and I've just caught up on your thread.

You are inspiring...You are doing beautifully. It gives me strength too. I can't wait until the day that you post down the road that WW knows and appreciates all that you have done to make you and your M so much better.

And you have acknowledged your responsibility for the state of your relationship, and look at all the work you have done to make you a better person for her to be married to.

You have reached a "higher state of being". Csue</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for you kind words, CSue. It sure doesn't FEEL like a "higher state of being"...more like exhaustion and apathy.

Every day it just seems like I can think of more and more things that are never going to happen, and it feels pretty hopeless. I mean, 10+ months into this, and we haven't even been able to get the A to end...and that's the easy part!

I got an email with this, thought I'd pass it on as many of us could probably use some of these guidelines...the site it came from is at the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>How to Cool ‘Em Down When They Throw Zingers?</strong>

A 'zinger' is a verbal blow that is meant to press your hot buttons. Often we fall into the trap when our buttons are pressed and throw a zinger back, or get defensive. Here’s an example of a zinger: 'You’re a damned liar Charlie.' A defensive answer might be: 'who me? Not on you life, I’ve never lied to you.' Throwing a zinger back might sound like this: 'You think I’m a liar? Everyone around here knows you as a hypocrite and a phony.' Neither of these responses defuses the zinger. Here are some examples of how you can cool people down when they throw zingers.

Zinger: You’re so evasive. I can’t trust you.
Response: That upsets me. I don’t mean to be evasive.
Tell me what you’d like me to do.

Zinger: You’re a loudmouth – you talk too much and say nothing.
Response: Aren’t you exaggerating? But I’ll listen more and
see what happens.

Zinger: That’s the stupidest idea I ever heard.
Response: What’s not good about it. Please be specific and
constructive.

Zinger: I can never get through that dense head of yours
Response: Tell me what you want to happen and what you want.
Let’s understand what’s in each other’s minds.

Zinger: It’s all your fault
Response: What have I done to make you feel that way?

Zinger: You’re just like your father. You never finish anything.
Response: I know I have a lot of his good qualities too.

These cool-off statements work because they’re meant to disarm someone whose intent is to push your hot buttons. Using cool-off statements give you power. You won’t take the bait. Instead, you answer the button-pusher calmly, with respect and maybe even with humor – and that diffuses the person’s need to set you off. In fact, your response may set off a more open and collaborative discussion.

************************************************
If you want to learn to identify and catch the eight most common communication curve balls –before they’re thrown again and learn how to disagree without being disagreeable go to http://hotbuttonsforcouples.com
***********************************************
Sybil Evans

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi SC, I like all your posts... and the zinger thingee! I just saved it in word....

Now that proof was over 2 months ago... keep that in mind! beginning of may... yall have mad e a lot of progress since then... right?

Hugs, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>Hi SC, I like all your posts... and the zinger thingee! I just saved it in word....

Now that proof was over 2 months ago... keep that in mind! beginning of may... yall have mad e a lot of progress since then... right?

Hugs, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad you liked it...sometimes they are good.

Yes, the proof is 2 months old, but nothing has changed since then; except she's not gone there to see him again....still in contact...

OK, I need some help here...I have to begin to draft a Plan to meet my WW's top 5 ENs and I have to present it to Steve by the end of this week.
I have some ideas, and have notes and stuff, but maybe I can get some feedback from the forum that will help.

<strong>Her Top 5 ENs are (as of 5/27)
1. Conversation
2. Sexual Fulfillment
3. Financial Support
4. Admiration
5. Affection</strong>

Here's what she says about them:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>1. Conversation</strong>
She scores a 4 on how great the need is. Between Moderate Need and Great Need for affection.
She'd like this fulfilled 1 time per day.
She says she'll be "somewhat unhappy" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a -2 "I am extremely dissatisfied" with my conversation with her.
And she indicates she gets "all the conversation she needs, but it is NOT the way she likes it"

Her notes read: "It is very difficult for us to communicate. It feels like we always end up fighting. That's one of our biggest problems, our lack of communication"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
"We don't converse, we fight. We can;t communicate. Seen some improvement, still a lot of problems"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My take is that this needs to improve much, much more. I have learned to be less agressive, less impatient and more calm during conversation. But we still have a lot of anger and frustration, and very major differences in many areas. Her lies and her unwillingness to talk about the A, to discuss these matters makes it very, very hard to talk about meaningful things w/o getting frustrated. I need help here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. Sexual Fulfillment</strong>
She scores a 3 on how great the need is. Moderate Need for sexual fulfillment.
She'd like this fulfilled 1 time per week.
She says she'll be "happy not to engage in sex" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a -1 between "I am extremely dissatisfied" and "I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied"with my sex with her.
And she indicates she gets "all the sex she needs, but it is NOT the way she likes it"

Her notes read: "I don't feel the need for sex like he does. I think that I was never satisfied in this area so now it's harder for me. I don't really know what I really want or how I want it, or what to do actually."

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
"It's important in every marriage, not as important for me as it is for you. She wants to give it more importance because she knows it's important to me. Trying to figure out how she likes it, doesn't know how. Does not engage because she does not get satisfaction."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea what more to do here; she does not let me try anything new, experiment, talk about it, nothing. I try to be as responsive to her needs and have ignored mine even. I've talked to her about it, bought her books, many things...but she's still reading the first one...and it's been 6 months!
Makes me feel like she's just not interested in making this work for us, or she's (G-d forbid), getting it elsewhere. Just DO NOT know what to do about this.
Also, she says she'd like it once a week, but the routine is closer to maybe twice a month. She never initiates....maybe 1 out of 100 times at most.
ANY ideas here will be appreciated!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. Financial Support</strong>
She scores a 5 on how great the need is. Great Need for Financial Support.
She'd like me to make $10,000 per month.
She says she'll be "somewhat unhappy" if I don't earn what she wants.
She does not score her satisfaction of my Financial Support for her.
And she does not indicates if I support her enough or the way she like me to.

Her notes read: "Unfortunately H has been out of work for a long time (11 months almost) so that makes it very difficult and I have to say that he always provided us with financial support"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
She'd like "more stability" in this, she admits she likes the "good life", would like it to be easier. H has never avoided this responsibility.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My job situation does not help, although I've managed to keep pretty much everyhting going ok and on time, with little sacrifice. Obviously this will improve when I get a job again...
The MAJOR issue here is our disagreement on priorities. I want to save, she wants to spend. I think college is more important, she thinks new furniture and clothes are. I guess that's the ususal, but we don't seem to be able to compromise and reach agreements here. Besides, her A has caused her to be very, very secretive about money, accounts cr cards, bills, everything...so it makes it very hard to work on this honestly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. Admiration</strong>
She scores a 5 on how great the need is. Great Need for Admiration.
She'd like this fulfilled 1 time per week.
She says she'll be "very unhappy" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a -1 between "I am extremely dissatisfied" and "I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied"with my Admiration of with her.
And she indicates she gets "not enough admiration, but it IS the way she likes it when she gets it"

Her notes read: "You need that good word once in a while, I NEVER had that, now he's starting to say something good sometimes"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
"Show me that some of the things I do are right, not everything is wrong. Has seen some improvement lately. Before, never did it."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm getting better, but my frustrations with lack of progress and lack of giving importance to our R and M makes it hard. I have a tendency to say "you did great, but..." and I have to stop that.
It has been getting better, but at the expense of NOT saying what I really feel. So I sure need help here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>5. Affection</strong>
She scores a 6 on how great the need is. Great Need for Affection.
She'd like this fulfilled 2 time per day.
She says she'll be "somewhat unhappy" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a 2, almost "I am extremely satisfied" with my Affection for her.
And she indicates she gets "All the affection she needs, and it IS the way she likes it."

Her notes read: "H has improved a lot by showing his affection lately. That makes me feel very good since before I didn't have it. Although sometimes it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable or angry because I ask myself why didn't he do it before?"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
H has improved a lot in showing affection. Makes me feel good compared to before. Did not do it before. Sometimes feel bad, angry; how come now and not before? Never wanted to be close, now he hugs me and is close to me in bed. Why now?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess this is good, but I'll take suggestions anyway!

Thanks everyone!

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hi Space,
You have come a long, long way. It is good to read how you react to things now. You think things out, you proceed carefully. It seems like you really do care about her feelings. If she thinks that you do, it will make a big difference.

Remember that there are always two sides. Continue to work on the issues that she had with you. If any of them still exist - if and when you do plan B, you will have a hard time living with it.

One of the signs of how far you have come is how much help you are able to give to others. You are pretty good at it, if you don't mind my comment. Can I call you oldtimer?

Keep it up, but don't quit working on you.

SS
It looks like we posted about the same time, I will come back and comment on your list. Oh what fun, let er rip. Ha, ha.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Please take this as a vote of encouragement... a "rah rah... GO Spacecase!!!" from the sidelines... k?

This is beautiful to me, and brings tears to my eyes. So many of us on this forum dream of the chance to read and discuss these things with our spouses. And the chance to develop a plan and implement it.

You're doing great Spacey. Don't you dare give up. Have faith in Steve, and these baby steps that you are taking.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>Hi Space,
You have come a long, long way. It is good to read how you react to things now. You think things out, you proceed carefully. It seems like you really do care about her feelings. If she thinks that you do, it will make a big difference.

Remember that there are always two sides. Continue to work on the issues that she had with you. If any of them still exist - if and when you do plan B, you will have a hard time living with it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I've shown her I DO care about her feelings, and slowly we've come to the realization that many things had become a tit for tat. You don't do this, I don't do that, you do this, I do that. Although I've recognized it more than she has, and she still feels like she's really pretty much right and I'm pretty much wrong. Then there's also the "learned reaction" to NOT agree with what I say or think or feel...just a general rejection that I feel in so many areas.

Please explain the comment about <strong>"If any of them still exist - if and when you do plan B, you will have a hard time living with it."</strong>

Not sure I get what you mean by that...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the signs of how far you have come is how much help you are able to give to others. You are pretty good at it, if you don't mind my comment. Can I call you oldtimer? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, don't flatter me, please! I am SO far from being an old-timer! I understand this stuff, but I just cannot separate my feelings from my knowledge, and continue to make the same mistakes. Mybe I'll be an old-timer when I am better able to separate the two! Thanks, though!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep it up, but don't quit working on you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Please take this as a vote of encouragement... a "rah rah... GO Spacecase!!!" from the sidelines... k?

You're doing great Spacey. Don't you dare give up. Have faith in Steve, and these baby steps that you are taking.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Faith! I'm hanging in there!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Spacecase said
I think I've shown her I DO care about her feelings, and slowly we've come to the realization that many things had become a tit for tat. You don't do this, I don't do that, you do this, I do that. Although I've recognized it more than she has, and she still feels like she's really pretty much right and I'm pretty much wrong. Then there's also the "learned reaction" to NOT agree with what I say or think or feel...just a general rejection that I feel in so many areas. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We still do this some - we had a big blow up this morning. We actually stopped right in the middle and looked at each other with a really stupid look, and we started over without all the baggage. I'm not sure when we will reach the point that we will never argue, but I like this a lot more than what we used to do ( one of us would usually have to leave for a few hours to keep from verbally killing the other.) As far as the she's right, your wrong, we just couldn't understand each others point of view. Also, I had been so controlling for so long that even if I was right, she wouldn't even consider what I had to say. I was kind of like HT, if you get my drift.

I have found most of my answers here. If I think differently about something than she does, I try to find a thread here that discusses it and I read about it until I can understand what she feels. Then I go back, and we discuss it from both points of view. Often I find I agree with her now, and I never used to do that. It scares me to see my own faults in others, makes it easier to understand myself and change.
One other thing I started doing, is picking very carefully my battles. There is no reason for me always to get things my way. I am not always right. Indeed for many things there is no right at all. ( for instance, where do you want to eat tonight?) So, I give her choices that I never used to give. Note that I am a type A personality, never knew I was doing this. You know what - it actually makes me happy to do it her way now. I used to argue for my point of view even on non right / wrong issues. Now, I consider her point of view and validate her in our conversations. I find a reason to agree with her and do what she wants. What a difference.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please explain the comment about "If any of them still exist - if and when you do plan B, you will have a hard time living with it." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I worded it wrong, I just meant that if any of your weaknesses are still there, if you still LB, or haven't learned to meet one of her important needs, you would probably regret going to B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, don't flatter me, please! I am SO far from being an old-timer! I understand this stuff, but I just cannot separate my feelings from my knowledge, and continue to make the same mistakes. Maybe I'll be an old-timer when I am better able to separate the two! Thanks, though! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When it comes to "ourselves" most all of us have a hard time, I just only stopped myself this morning right in the middle of the conversation. I should have never started to argue. I know better, so why? You still give good advice, keep helping when you can.
This started out as a one paragraph reply - sorry.
SS

Thanks, SS.

You are right. I have started to stop myself or stop us in the middle of what looks like becoming an argument, and it's been successful. She's still not there, but she IS starting to appreciate that posture I've taken so I imagine it's a matter of time before she begins to do it herself.

I think our main problem right now is that since she still has the A going on, and on that she does not want to (or believes she needs to) change, or is able to talk aboit it with me, it almost becomes like most conversations are really superficial and are kept entirely "clean" of issues that could bring up the A or the lies, or whatever.

So it's fake, false, not real and productive. If, for instance, we were to try to talk about honesty, it's impossibe. There is none right now.
If we try to talk about committment and care for each other, we can't do that either; not honestly. If we were to talk about joint agreement, or almost any other of the Basic principles, we run into the same obstacles...so that is why it's so difficult.

For instance, I'd like to talk about emotional unavailability. This is a key issue for us. But how can I if anyything I say in that area is taken as an attack, a reminder of the lies, a prod about the OM? When it's over, and she's admitted it, or whatever, then we can discuss that and both have something to say from our end, but for now, it's not possible. I hate that! It makes me feel like we cannot make much progress in most things until that issue is resolved.

That is why I'm so eager to try to resolve it. One way or another.

Anyone heard from ashirley? I haven't seen her posts in along time....

Hi SC:

I didn't read the post, but I did see her name on the "today's active topics" last week, I think.

Hopefully, she's too busy dating her H! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hope4future posted this in the Plan B Poll thread, and I thought I'd transcribe it here because it's a point I have brought up on a few occasions and I believe it is absolutely correct. Would appreciate everyone's thoughts about this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
...As a former WS, I do believe our marriage could have SURVIVED without going to Plan B, or without the seperation etc... I think the A would have been done before it barely started if my hubby had spoken to OM after his initial discovery of my feelings for him. We were only just beginning to show signs of trouble and he read some journaling I had done on the computer. I also think had hubby ever done a good Plan A I would have regained some of my respect for him and possibly come out of the fog sooner.

<strong>BUT, even looking back at the what if's...I think Plan B not only brought me out of it quicker....but given me FAR more respect for my marriage, what it really brings to my life, and what my hubby really brings to my life. I think a marriage that "recovers" without that realization...is fixed, but it's more of a duct tape and rubberband job. Not necessarily permanent.

It seems to me that in most cases where the BS does a great Plan A until the A dies, and then there is some "recovery" as the WS expresses remourse and realizes the pain they've cause their spouse...the WS still hasn't really realized what life without the spouse would be like...nor do they feel the threat of losing their spouse. The BS still feels that threat...because it's been proven to them that it can happen. But as far as the WS has witnessed...they act up, they get Plan A'd. It's my opinion that Plan B, although NOT intended as a punishment, simply proves strength in the BS, and allows the WS to feel some of the consequences of their actions.

So to me, Plan B ensures that IF the marriage survives...it comes with renewed and ADDED respect both for the marriage and the BS, it knocks the WS down off that "I'm queen/king of all I survey" attitude, it not only brings the WS out FURTHER and quicker and gives greater ensurances that it WON'T happen again...because Plan B offers a great big painful lesson, and one that's hopefully NEVER forgotten.</strong>

Look at your situations 2long and Space. I understand why you feel the way you do and why you're doing what you're doing the way you're doing it...but your results are still excrutiatingly slow and small. Because your wives still have the upper hand, or they atleast think they do. Because they haven't fully regained and certainly haven't ADDED respect for you. It's not just because they're stubborn women...I certainly am too...it's because they've got no reason not to be. They're safe no matter how they act because you're still there and give no real action to proving you'll ever be otherwise. You can tell them you could leave at any time, and you can feel they "get that"...but until actions actually back those words, they'll never really believe it.

It just reminds me of the old saying to set something free, if it comes back it's yours, if it doesn't it never belonged to you in the first place. After a really good Plan A there is no reason a WS who really loves their spouse and their marriage wouldn't want to try to work things out to get that back after the fog clears. If you've done everything you can to show you're a new person and you go to Plan B and the WS still never "gets it", there's a good chance they never would have with more Plan A either.

Ok, maybe that was a nickels worth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC response:
It is VERY interesting that you bring this point up, H4F; I have asked about PRECISELY this aspect of the value of Plan B on several occasions, and it was often seen as "punishment", when in reality, what you pointed out here is EXACTLY what I was referring to.

I believe you are quite right in this, and I'm very glad a Former WS validates the point this way. Thank you for your candor.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Space,

I have to say that Hope sure makes several good points.

The tough part is deciding if this works for you, and if so deciding on the best timing.

Fortunately you are in counseling with SH; so he can help you with these decisions. There's risk of course because you have to be ready to lose it all. However in a sense that's already at risk because of what WS has done. Especially if they "still don't get it".

I'm going to copy what Hope said in the previous post for future reference...CSue

I agree, CSue; H4F said it very well.

I have thought about that a lot because I'm pretty sure that although many Ms will end up recovering, perhaps we also need to look at the "level" or "depth" of that recovery.

In my case, because of the experience of my WW's first A 14 years ago, and what happened to us because of it (no recovery at all, proper or not), I feel pretty certain that if we're to have a chance at all, recovery must be accompanied by a very deep and committed understanding of all that happened and all we need to do, change, improve, etc.

Thanks!

Space,

What I think is complicated in your case is that in a sense you are working on both A's since the 1st one was never resolved. So it's a merging of the past and present.

I don't know how much IC you have had; but to reference what I've heard in IC, it's a matter of "peeling the onion" so to speak. It's like breaking through the outer layers to get to the better inner layers.

Each layer has a purpose and we have to come to terms with the current layer before we can go deeper. So there's healing and a journey to peace; then on to the next layer. Lots of hard work. Thing is we can only do the peeling ourselves, either by ourself or with a C; or better yet a trusted and beloved person in our life.

That is where I believe true intimacy with another person is possible and I'm sure quite rewarding. My belief is that the outer layers are the tougher protective layers (or walls) and once they start coming down the journey gains momentum.

H & I finally had a RT the other night. We discussed again his Recovery Plan and it went very well. We're back to interviewing each other regarding meeting ENs; which isn't quite so heavy.
I'm impressed that you and your W have already made it through the LBs. SH told us that if all else fails we should just hand each other our LB questionnaire for reading. I of course would like more. It seems more meaningful to read and discuss.

I'm hopeful for you because you are making progress. There's a cliche about the things that are worth the most, take the most time...CSue

Some interesting things have happened, and I'd like to run them by the forum for feedback. Coincidentally, over the last few days with my family visiting here, we've had the opportunity to discuss things that resonate and parallel our dilema.
First, my brother's wife decided to separate from him, telling him that she's not sure she's in love with him anymore, so he's going through some turmoil because of it. I spoke with him at length, he's been visiting MB, they are in counseling, and generally thay are working to figure things out. It turns out that she has an old male friend who lost his wife to ilness some time ago, and she's always had a close emotional tie to him. Being the suspicious guy that I am, I feel she's having an EA, but I'm not sure; just don't have all the details. (But that's another story). The point is that in talking about this I said something like "well, at least she's been honest in saying what she feels (that she's not sure she's in love with my brother), and she's moved out and they are going to counseling, trying to work things out. At least she's been honest with him."

The other incident involves my son; it turns out he found out that his ex-girlfriend was seen dating another guy while they were still dating. He was out of town, at college whan this happened. So he was very upset about this, and went to talk to her, and he was upset. Natural. My W asked me if I'd spoken to S about what happened and I said yes, he found out about this, and he's naturally very upset.

After these two conversations, I said to myself; I wonder if any of this is feeling like the same thing that's happening to us? I wonder if my W is seeing some parallels here and maybe getting certain messages?

Well...it had. Today she tells me she wants to talk. She had also told me a few days ago that she wants to go to FL again to visit friends. I didn't say much, but I let my displeasure show. So we're sitting downstairs and she says to me; "I felt like you were sending me a message when you told me about S's girlfriend." I said "No. I was just telling you what he told me and what he felt about this." She then says "Well, I felt like you were sending me a message about that. And what about when I told you I want to go to FL? Why did you make those faces?" so I said "Well, the truth is that I believe you are going to see the OM; that these trips to FL are just an excuse to go see him." She asks why I feel thi and I tell her that she still does a lot of things that make me feel suspicious, including renting a car while in FL which she did not tell me about. Then she says "I'm feeling like no matter what I do, what I have shown you, the fact that I'm here with you is not enough. That you are never going to trust me or believe me, and if that's the case, I think we should end this relationship." and I said "Well, if that's the way you feel, I don't have a problem with that."

We then went into a long conversation where I said that although I recognize that she's here, and she's trying, and we're Cing with Steve, and that I see all of those as very positive, and I see through those that she does want to fix our relationship, that I still feel that in the area of trust there are more things she could do, and more importantly perhaps, things she could stop doing, which would help rebuild trust.

She feels very strongly that what she has done should be enough, and she also feels that we are going nowhere because if I cannot trust her and forgive her with what she has done already, then there's nothing more we can do. She does not see that although there is a corelation between seeing what she's doing and feeling that she wants our R to work, and with trust and forgiveness, that there are varying degress of each, and that although I may not trust or have forgiven her, I DO see what she's doing, feel it is positive, and feel that she does want to make it work. In her view, If the whole package does not come together, then there's nothing. She cried during this, she says she sees the changes in me and she cannot imagine, did not imagine, that I still distrust her like that. That If I still distrust so much, I'll never forgive or trust again. I told her that I believe there are still a great many things she could do to rebuild trust, but she hasn't done them...

At the end of this I asked her what she wanted to do. Did she want me to leave now, or did she want us to discuss this with Steve on Tuesday? She said we caould talk to Steve about it.

Questions; Did I blow it by bringing these things up? Should I have said anything about the rental car? Was it OK to say "Fine; if you want to end this now we can." Does the fact that she came to talk about it mean anything? (I think it does; she's seeing me care less and less...I think), any other observations?

I'm thinking this may perhaps be just about the right time for Plan B? What if I plan it for when she returns from her trip? I can pick her up at the airport, drop her off at home, deliver the letter, and take off to my new place....I'll have the time to prepare everything while she's gone.

On the other hand, I DON'T yet have definitive proof of continued contact, although I do have a TON of circumstancial evidence...so maybe I should stick to the original plan of getting that, confronting and deciding based on her reaction....

Please give me your thoughts and impressions....some of you are very good at reading between the lines and interpreting things...

Hi Cadet,

Well I have not read this entire thread but I will comment on your last post. U R wondering if you did it all right?

From where I sit, you did. Might be a few details but not signifciant. Note, even after you clarified that you were just mentioning the incidents to her, she still resorted to blaming you of sorts. Sign of the fog.

The fact that you do not trust her yet. Let her know that many a recovery couple still have great moments of distrust. For me even the type of ring on H's cell is a trigger. When he lets his voicemail pick up his phone is a trigger. BR panicked when her H was late from the trainstation. There are other examples.

So to you credit, use us as examples. Let her see that you are not alone in this thinking.

RU read to plan B? I think not but maybe close. If she continues in this trend you may need to. Why? For me when the WS came home he was still in mind, body and heart a WS. He came home too early. So he thought I should be glad he was here with me and did not feel he needed to improve. WEll I took a couple of weeks of that and then told him to get out. See that no longer did it for me. He was still in communication with her and could not prove to me that he was REALLY home in the fullest sense.

When he told me that he no longer missed the OW, was a turning point. From then on the triggers have gone down but not subsided. The WS has been home for over 1 year!!!! The A has been supposedly over for only 5 months (of his last known contact - PBR has called every month except this one). So you are not out of line.

Now I'll bet your W will be opinionated on how someone treats her son. Hmmph..... U R in the same boat and even worse because you are married! Think she will see that?!??!?

hope this helps.

L.