</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Hi Cadet,

Well I have not read this entire thread but I will comment on your last post. U R wondering if you did it all right?

From where I sit, you did. Might be a few details but not signifciant. Note, even after you clarified that you were just mentioning the incidents to her, she still resorted to blaming you of sorts. Sign of the fog. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad to hear it! I was almost expecting to hear I'd totally blown it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As a matter of fact, she asked me why I had not talked about the distrust anymore, and I told her it was becasue every time we talked about it, she'd get upset. Like I had no right to think she might still be ij contact, so I hadn't mentioned it. But that in light of her again wanting to go to FL, I felt I had to bring it up.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The fact that you do not trust her yet. Let her know that many a recovery couple still have great moments of distrust. For me even the type of ring on H's cell is a trigger. When he lets his voicemail pick up his phone is a trigger. BR panicked when her H was late from the trainstation. There are other examples.

So to you credit, use us as examples. Let her see that you are not alone in this thinking. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did, actually use other examples. I asked her if it seemed unreasonable to her for me to feel this way in light of what has happened, and she did not answer. And when she did say something, it was only to say again that I will never believe her, trust her....etc.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
RU read to plan B? I think not but maybe close. If she continues in this trend you may need to. Why? For me when the WS came home he was still in mind, body and heart a WS. He came home too early. So he thought I should be glad he was here with me and did not feel he needed to improve. WEll I took a couple of weeks of that and then told him to get out. See that no longer did it for me. He was still in communication with her and could not prove to me that he was REALLY home in the fullest sense. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right here. And I'm really pretty much ready for Plan B, have just been holding off based on the plan outlined with Steve. And we WOULD like to be able to have a "definitive" confrontation with irrefutable evidence as the last opportunity before plan B, but that may or may not happen based on if I CAN get the evidence...working on it.

She, BTW, does not get the "really coming home" part...probably because since she insists it's BEEN over for a while, she CAN'T really talk about this much.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now I'll bet your W will be opinionated on how someone treats her son. Hmmph..... U R in the same boat and even worse because you are married! Think she will see that?!??!? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was VERY upset at this. But naturally it would seem too weird and hypocritical to have said so...so she didn't. She chose to just take it as if I was saying that just to prod her.

Thanks Orchid. It DOES help to hear I did SOME things right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In all honesty I couln't quite read all the story behind what your experiencing - but I agree with the time frame thing. I am 3 months in from discovering that my husband had an affair and I have only just decided to give us a time frame and at this point if we haven't proceeded in 6 months I will be considering plan B. But on a positive side we are certainly moving ahead with each day. Sure we have a laps back every now and then but there comes a point we I think you know from your gut feelings if your both trying to make it work or not. Time to trust those feelings I think. Good luck with it.

Dear Spacecase,
re: conversation with WW - I think you did REAL good - it's so hard to keep your head and your cool and try to remember what all you wanted to say in the "right" way - but I think you were very clear and calm about saying what you needed to say.

This is only MHO, but - yes, I think seeing what is happening to your B and your S has made her question her own actions - so she came fishing to you to find out how you feel now about what she is doing.

Mars and Venus author stresses that with women - they talk as a process to try to sort out their feelings - women's brains have more connectors between the 2 halves of their brains, so they talk and think at the same time - this means they talk to try to sort out what they are thinking - meaning they don't necessarily have their minds made up at the beginning of a conversation - what they say to start out with ain't necessarily what they going to end up with - VERY confusing for a man to have to be patient and wade through listening to - like wading through muddy water sometimes, but he says that's where men can learn new skill of listening - don't necessarily have to change the way they speak, the way they are - just learn to listen differently.

Sounds to me like she has not let go of needing this "friendship". She doesn't really know how much you know - your letting her know that you know she rented a car in FL has let her know that you are still checking up on her in some way - she will be wondering how much else you know. She thinks she is doing all she can by staying living with you - it's only by seeing the hurt your B and S are able to express openly, that she is STARTING to get a glimmer of what she has been doing to you. She is confused. She is expressing her hopelessness. She is afraid that you will never truly forgive her. She doesn't want you to set boundaries that she has to adhere to because she is afraid that she can't live up to them since she has already failed. That's one interpretation. The other is that she is still not willing to give up the R - she will not budge and is starting to see that you will not budge either. You need her to actively do the things that have to be done to rebuild your trust - she doesn't know how she can do this. But I think her key phrase is she's afraid it will never be enough for you.

Since you are both at the stage where you are filling out questionaires with Steve, I would give careful thought to a list of the things you would want from her in order for you to feel that you can trust her. Write it down and consult with Steve - he may feel she is not ready to hear this - he is the best judge. But it would be a shame to go to plan B without giving her a chance to step-by-step do the things she needs to do. And if you are able to do this, and she starts in at meeting these requirements, don't expect her to do them all at once - she will probably take them one at a time and watch your reaction. Mars and Venus author says women watch a man's reaction consistently over time.

Don't take her expressing her hopelessness as her final word - it could be her cry to you to tell her what you want her to do. And balance - if she really does all that ask her to, will you REALLY love her the way she needs to be loved, this is probably what she is asking herself - she probably doesn't see how this can be possible after all you have been through - and you are in a stew of emotions with pain all mixed up with wanting her back - but if you can balance staying firm about what you require with doing the loving things she needs from you and saying that you love her, maybe she will finally be able to move your way.

In my case, my H sounds VERY similar to your W - he is home, he is "normal" - but he is still guarding his privacy - he has also said similar things - "If living with me and being married isn't enough, that's just too bad!" (I should be grateful for this?) - also - he had EA1 last year - in Oct 01, I checked his cellphone log and found out he had called OW1 when I thought it was over - he said, just like your wife "so you really don't trust me?" - very sad - couldn't talk about it - I think despair set in - he felt he was doing enough and nothing he did would ever be enough for me - he felt he had lost my trust (which he had) - and he embarked on EA2 right after that. Had we been able to do the work we needed to after EA1, EA2 might never have happened. But he wasn't in a place where he would listen. Now he is in counselling, I have more hope.

So I think it's better if you outline steps that have to be taken to rebuild trust - point out to her that these are things that are normal to do when trying to recover trust and recommended by all books you have read, so she can get the idea that this is not just you being parental and demanding with her, and reassure her that you love her, and can truly forgive her despite everything that has happened.

Good luck - Spacey - hang in there.

Odile

Odile; thanks SO much. Very good points and I will respond...just don't have time now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by odile:
<strong>Dear Spacecase,
re: conversation with WW - I think you did REAL good - it's so hard to keep your head and your cool and try to remember what all you wanted to say in the "right" way - but I think you were very clear and calm about saying what you needed to say.

This is only MHO, but - yes, I think seeing what is happening to your B and your S has made her question her own actions - so she came fishing to you to find out how you feel now about what she is doing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're right in this. The "unspoken" message from the B and S conversations HAD to make her think...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Mars and Venus author stresses that with women - they talk as a process to try to sort out their feelings - women's brains have more connectors between the 2 halves of their brains, so they talk and think at the same time - this means they talk to try to sort out what they are thinking - meaning they don't necessarily have their minds made up at the beginning of a conversation - what they say to start out with ain't necessarily what they going to end up with - VERY confusing for a man to have to be patient and wade through listening to - like wading through muddy water sometimes, but he says that's where men can learn new skill of listening - don't necessarily have to change the way they speak, the way they are - just learn to listen differently.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm learning this. Slowly, but I'm getting there.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Sounds to me like she has not let go of needing this "friendship". She doesn't really know how much you know - your letting her know that you know she rented a car in FL has let her know that you are still checking up on her in some way - she will be wondering how much else you know. She thinks she is doing all she can by staying living with you - it's only by seeing the hurt your B and S are able to express openly, that she is STARTING to get a glimmer of what she has been doing to you. She is confused. She is expressing her hopelessness. She is afraid that you will never truly forgive her. She doesn't want you to set boundaries that she has to adhere to because she is afraid that she can't live up to them since she has already failed. That's one interpretation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think all of this is correct. As long as she's thinking about it, I think this is good.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The other is that she is still not willing to give up the R - she will not budge and is starting to see that you will not budge either. You need her to actively do the things that have to be done to rebuild your trust - she doesn't know how she can do this. But I think her key phrase is she's afraid it will never be enough for you.

Since you are both at the stage where you are filling out questionaires with Steve, I would give careful thought to a list of the things you would want from her in order for you to feel that you can trust her. Write it down and consult with Steve - he may feel she is not ready to hear this - he is the best judge. But it would be a shame to go to plan B without giving her a chance to step-by-step do the things she needs to do. And if you are able to do this, and she starts in at meeting these requirements, don't expect her to do them all at once - she will probably take them one at a time and watch your reaction. Mars and Venus author says women watch a man's reaction consistently over time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is also correct. Stev, in fact, asked me to send him a list of the questions I need answered, and I did, so I think this process has begun. What I'm afraid of is that inevitably, since the R continues, she will fight tooth and nail to NOT answer the questions, and will almost inevitably lead to confrontation. I hope Steve will have some ideas here.

This is why Steve had asked me to get the "irrefutable" evidence asap, so we could confront, get it over with, and see how she reacts, what she does. Based on that, we'd decide if Plan B was called for or not.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Don't take her expressing her hopelessness as her final word - it could be her cry to you to tell her what you want her to do. And balance - if she really does all that ask her to, will you REALLY love her the way she needs to be loved, this is probably what she is asking herself - she probably doesn't see how this can be possible after all you have been through - and you are in a stew of emotions with pain all mixed up with wanting her back - but if you can balance staying firm about what you require with doing the loving things she needs from you and saying that you love her, maybe she will finally be able to move your way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not so sure about this. I hope you're right. It sounds to me like she is testing the waters some, and in that sense I think I passed. How sure she is of staying to work it out, I'm not too sure. She seems to be VERY, VERY attached to the OM, and she may be willing to sacrifice more than we think for him. That's what I'm afraid of. She has been VERY VERY reluctant to take a look at HER issues, the things SHE needs to do, the things SHE has done to our R over time.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
In my case, my H sounds VERY similar to your W - he is home, he is "normal" - but he is still guarding his privacy - he has also said similar things - "If living with me and being married isn't enough, that's just too bad!" (I should be grateful for this?) - also - he had EA1 last year - in Oct 01, I checked his cellphone log and found out he had called OW1 when I thought it was over - he said, just like your wife "so you really don't trust me?" - very sad - couldn't talk about it - I think despair set in - he felt he was doing enough and nothing he did would ever be enough for me - he felt he had lost my trust (which he had) - and he embarked on EA2 right after that. Had we been able to do the work we needed to after EA1, EA2 might never have happened. But he wasn't in a place where he would listen. Now he is in counselling, I have more hope.

So I think it's better if you outline steps that have to be taken to rebuild trust - point out to her that these are things that are normal to do when trying to recover trust and recommended by all books you have read, so she can get the idea that this is not just you being parental and demanding with her, and reassure her that you love her, and can truly forgive her despite everything that has happened.

Good luck - Spacey - hang in there.

Odile </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand it's a process. And I'm willing to be patient. But the other reality is this; She has not ended the R with the OM, and we're asking her to divulge all of this information based on her word that the R HAS ended. So she can't do it...not without ending it or just making stuff up again. Tough position to be in, and that's why I think there's so much turmoil and the apparent willingness to call it quits. She knows she's getting close to the point of no return and she doesn't want to go there.